Halyna Hutchins Shot With Prop Gun - Alec Baldwin indicted & Hannah Gutierrez-Reed charged, 2021 #6

[Cool Cats]

I was wondering when something like this might come out. The prosecution's stance on this has the possibility of fundamentally changing an actor's responsibilities on a set. Each actor now must be trained on firearms if they are in a scene where they must handle one? That is a slippery slope that quickly oozes over to other things than firearms. Or this just a plan to remove real firearms? We know the NM Governor's position on firearms and the SF DA's position.

I would love to get your opinion on a trial right now....

GUILTY - MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #5

The cross of Special Agent Brandon - what stood out to you the most? Hi there, the actions that are not illegal.

www.websleuths.com

This involves a precedent setting case of charging 2 parents with 4 counts each of involuntary manslaughter because they gave their son a gun and he used it to shoot up his school, killing 4 students and injuring others.

 

[Laughing]

Google-Fu has failed me. iirc, they were actually BLOCKING this scene -- deciding where AB would stand, how to achieve the angles that HH wanted for the scene?

If they are blocking a scene, isn't this


Optics Planet

what AB should be holding?

DH knew he was in it deep and imho chose wisely.

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[Marantz4250b]

Have you watched some western or cop shows lately?

1/4 of the show is people pointing guns and directly aiming and firing at each other. They will make it look like they are bleeding because they were directly shot.

They are acting with blanks.

This is about an actor's gun being loaded with a live round instead of with a blank and should Alec have noticed this? Should he have tested the gun himself?

Was it, or was it not, OK for him to assume the gun did not carry a live round?

He would not have pointed his gun at the camera if he thought for one second it contained a live round. He thought it was a "cold" gun.

Blank
Firearm cartridge
A blank is a firearm cartridge that, when fired, does not shoot a projectile like a bullet or pellet, but generates a muzzle flash and an explosive sound like a normal gunshot would.

They weren't acting with blanks when she was shot.

The intention was not that the gun be loaded with blanks. Rather, dummies.

Yes he should have checked it himself. It's the very first rule of safe gun handling.

No, it was not okay for him to assume that it did not carry a live round.

Dummies are designed to replicate the look of live ammunition. Blanks do not look like live rounds and are extremely easy to spot.

A dummy round is identical to a live round. The use of dummy rounds is probably the single most dangerous activity you can carry out with firearms in terms of the potential consequences of getting it wrong. Ironically, had the gun been loaded with blanks there would have been more safety precautions in place to prevent injury!

He did not personally satisfy himself that the gun did not contain live ammo; he took the word of an unqualified person rather than the official armorer; he pointed the gun at someone; he used a real firearm in a circumstance which did not require one - I could go on. All of that is against the protocol that he knows about all too well.

If Hannah had been allowed in the building and had loaded the gun in front of him while he watched and she'd said see, these are dummies, you can tell because they have little BB's in them or holes in the side..., you know, how the official SAG protocol says it's supposed to be done, and it still went off and shot two people then he'd have taken reasonable steps to prevent it and would have discharged his duty of care and wouldn't be in the situation he is currently in. He didn't, though, so he needs to suck it up, quite frankly.

Returning to the SAG statement that ....actors should not need to be firearms experts..., I don't think that that statement does him any favours, quite honestly. If they are saying that one needs to be an "expert" in order to safely verify that a gun is not going to kill someone (which everyone involved with firearms knows is total BS) then it's even more egregious that he blew off the safety talks and didn't pay attention on the rare occasions he did show up. He can't have it both ways.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I was wondering when something like this might come out. The prosecution's stance on this has the possibility of fundamentally changing an actor's responsibilities on a set. Each actor now must be trained on firearms if they are in a scene where they must handle one? That is a slippery slope that quickly oozes over to other things than firearms. Or this just a plan to remove real firearms? We know the NM Governor's position on firearms and the SF DA's position.

I don't think it's a slippery slope at all. This prosecution (if successful) will basically codify into law the fact that everyone who uses firearms is responsible for the consequences of that use.

It simply cannot be the case that certain professional users of firearms in one specific industry have a lower duty of care towards other people than does every other person who uses guns. Indeed that in itself is a potential slippery slope, surely?

If actors get to enjoy less care with firearms then why not, say, police officers? I mean upholding the civil peace is a tad more important than some rich actor pretending to be a cowboy, is it not - so who cares if a few more people get accidentally shot as long as it's in pursuit of a noble goal?

 

[Marantz4250b]

I would love to get your opinion on a trial right now....

GUILTY - MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #5

The cross of Special Agent Brandon - what stood out to you the most? Hi there, the actions that are not illegal.

www.websleuths.com

This involves a precedent setting case of charging 2 parents with 4 counts each of involuntary manslaughter because they gave their son a gun and he used it to shoot up his school, killing 4 students and injuring others.

This is an interesting case, tbh. I've only seen a couple of brief headlines so haven't followed it. I believe the prosecution is based on the premise that the kid had serious behavioral issues and probably mental health issues?

If that's correct, and the parents know these things, then giving their kid unsupervised access to a firearm seems a remarkably reckless thing to do, surely? I mean bartenders can be charged if they knowingly keep plying a customer with drink and they know that customer is going to drive home and they end up killing someone. I see little difference here. The legal argument is exactly the same.

 

[MyBelle]

I was wondering when something like this might come out. The prosecution's stance on this has the possibility of fundamentally changing an actor's responsibilities on a set. Each actor now must be trained on firearms if they are in a scene where they must handle one? That is a slippery slope that quickly oozes over to other things than firearms. Or this just a plan to remove real firearms? We know the NM Governor's position on firearms and the SF DA's position.

BBM. I think the Union will win this one, not the elected prosecutor or the NM governor. The handling of this case may be the death knell to any future movie production in NM and there have been quite a few movies made there since 1987:

NM Filmography

NM Filmography

nmfilm.com

The entire point of hiring a licensed armorer is to ensure there is safety on the set when firearms are present. Actors get to focus on their professional skill which is acting. I'm glad the Union has made a public statement.

JMO

https://www.iatselocal52.org/Applications/PropArmorerJD.pdf

 

[Marantz4250b]

BBM. I think the Union will win this one, not the elected prosecutor or the NM governor. The handling of this case may be the death knell to any future movie production in NM and there have been quite a few movies made there since 1987:

NM Filmography

NM Filmography

nmfilm.com

The entire point of hiring a licensed armorer is to ensure there is safety on the set when firearms are present. Actors get to focus on their professional skill which is acting. I'm glad the Union has made a public statement.

JMO

https://www.iatselocal52.org/Applications/PropArmorerJD.pdf

The union isn't on trial here, AB and HGR are.

The union have said that actors should not need to be firearms experts. If an "expert" is needed in order that a firearm can be confirmed as "safe" then it's clearly a highly skilled and technical thing which needs the utmost care from those involved with it. AB barely attended his safety training and when he did he didn't complete the allotted time and was allegedly distracted throughout.

Alec Baldwin repeatedly failed to adhere to the union protocol for firearms use when this incident happened. If that protocol had been followed by him then it is a virtual certainty that no-one would have been shot and, even if they had been, he would have been in the clear as he'd have done what he was obliged to do.

Why would this have any effect on movie production in NM? I don't see the connection.

 

[MyBelle]

The union isn't on trial here, AB and HGR are.

The union have said that actors should not need to be firearms experts. If an "expert" is needed in order that a firearm can be confirmed as "safe" then it's clearly a highly skilled and technical thing which needs the utmost care from those involved with it. AB barely attended his safety training and when he did he didn't complete the allotted time and was allegedly distracted throughout.

Alec Baldwin repeatedly failed to adhere to the union protocol for firearms use when this incident happened. If that protocol had been followed by him then it is a virtual certainty that no-one would have been shot and, even if they had been, he would have been in the clear as he'd have done what he was obliged to do.

Why would this have any effect on movie production in NM? I don't see the connection.

I didn't say or even imply that the union is on trial. I'm confident the jury will be comprised of people who either belong to a union or have a family member who are in a union. The reason unions exist is to ensure safer working conditions for workers engaged in dangerous work such as actors, railroads, movie/tv production, utility workers, teachers, etc.

HGR failed to do the job Rust Productions, LLC paid her to do. There were all kinds of safety violations around that set.

If the proposed firearm legislation bills pass in NM, I think those that foot the bill for movie production will decide there is too much red tape and not enough incentive in New Mexico.

JMO

'Rust' Armorer Hannah Gutierrez-Reed Seeks Dismissal or New Trial

Hannah Gutierrez-Reed is asking for her conviction to be dismissed or for a new trial in light of Alec Baldwin's case being dismissed.

www.etonline.com

According to an affidavit filed by the Santa Fe County’s Sheriff’s Office obtained by The Associated Press and The New York Times, assistant director Dave Halls unintentionally handed the actor the weapon and told him it was safe to use.

Per the affidavit, the assistant director did not know the prop gun was loaded with live rounds. It also notes that the weapon that was fired and Baldwin's wardrobe, which was blood-stained, were taken as evidence. Other prop guns, ammunition and any footage that might exist were also confiscated, AP reports. It's still unclear how many rounds were fired.

 

[Cool Cats]

I didn't say or even imply that the union is on trial. I'm confident the jury will be comprised of people who either belong to a union or have a family member who are in a union. The reason unions exist is to ensure safer working conditions for workers engaged in dangerous work such as actors, railroads, movie/tv production, utility workers, teachers, etc.

HGR failed to do the job Rust Productions, LLC paid her to do. There were all kinds of safety violations around that set.

If the proposed firearm legislation bills pass in NM, I think those that foot the bill for movie production will decide there is too much red tape and not enough incentive in New Mexico.

JMO

'Rust' Armorer Hannah Gutierrez-Reed Seeks Dismissal or New Trial

Hannah Gutierrez-Reed is asking for her conviction to be dismissed or for a new trial in light of Alec Baldwin's case being dismissed.

www.etonline.com

According to an affidavit filed by the Santa Fe County’s Sheriff’s Office obtained by The Associated Press and The New York Times, assistant director Dave Halls unintentionally handed the actor the weapon and told him it was safe to use.

Per the affidavit, the assistant director did not know the prop gun was loaded with live rounds. It also notes that the weapon that was fired and Baldwin's wardrobe, which was blood-stained, were taken as evidence. Other prop guns, ammunition and any footage that might exist were also confiscated, AP reports. It's still unclear how many rounds were fired.

Do you think AB was over charged?

 

[Laughing]

BBM. I think the Union will win this one, not the elected prosecutor or the NM governor. The handling of this case may be the death knell to any future movie production in NM and there have been quite a few movies made there since 1987:

NM Filmography

NM Filmography

nmfilm.com

JMO

https://www.iatselocal52.org/Applications/PropArmorerJD.pdf

rsbm

That filmography gave up too soon, missed some good films including this one:

Every Which Way But Loose (1978) ⭐ 6.3 | Action, Comedy

1h 54m | PG

www.imdb.com

Walked out of the grocery store with Grandma, lo & behold Mr. Eastwood & Clyde the Orangutan were outside the bowling alley!

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[10ofRods]

But is she right?

She is, in this case. No sweeping generalizations about her at all. She's a good lawyer.

IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

I was wondering when something like this might come out. The prosecution's stance on this has the possibility of fundamentally changing an actor's responsibilities on a set. Each actor now must be trained on firearms if they are in a scene where they must handle one? That is a slippery slope that quickly oozes over to other things than firearms. Or this just a plan to remove real firearms? We know the NM Governor's position on firearms and the SF DA's position.

Yep. That seems to be the goal - at least for NM, which has a lot of independent film production. This is how things change (as they should - no one should die because a real gun is on set, much less real ammo; the alternatives are too many and no one cares about authentic antique guns in Westerns).

Yes, each person (not just actors) who handle firearms in the course of their work should be trained. That includes police, prison guards, security guards and whoever else is handling firearms in the course of their employment. And if they are not, the employer should be held responsible (just as we hold oil companies responsible for their workers when they go to do various dangerous things).

It's already oozed over to other things. It's not okay for an American corporation (say, Enron) to not oversee its operations and its training well enough that...huge oil spills take place. Or explosions (in other industries). This has been going on, as far as I can tell, since the late 19th century (stricter controls on business risking people's lives). Triangle Shirt Factory, etc.

In our day and age, people expect corporations (especially ones that do not perform any central function - such as coal mining - which is highly regulated) to protect their workers.

What do you think the NM Governor's view is on firearms? Were they elected on that platform? I really don't know - and I used to live there. It may entail (notice I didn't say "a plan") removing "real" firearms from sets. Is that a bad thing? If only one life is saved, I think it's a good thing. Real firearms (and blanks) are both unnecessary in modern film making (and so, Rust was itself at the bottom of the barrel - and still is - in terms of potential earnings and distribution).

Shoot em ups are different now. We don't need functional firearms on movie sets in order to be entertained.

IMO. And this has nothing to do with general "gun rights." It has to do with guns in the workplace.

 

[al66pine]

SAG-AFTRA's Statement. Strawman Argument?

SAG-AFTRA's Jan 25 stmt* recognized the Industry Wide Labor-Management Safety Committee’s “Safety Bulletin #1, Recommendations for Safety with Firearms and Use of Blank Ammunition” and continued: "An actor’s job is not to be a firearms or weapons expert.... The guidelines do not make it the performer’s responsibility to check any firearm."

NM OSHB "Summary of Investigation" ** on Rust shooting quotes ^ Safety Bulletin #1 provision:
“Refrain from pointing a firearm at anyone… If it is absolutely necessary to do so on camera, consult the Property Master / or Armorer or other safety representative, such the First A.D. / Stage Manager. Remember that any object at which you point a firearm could be destroyed.”

Does this ^ clause in require Actor to be a firearm EXPERT? Say -
Clear, disassemble, assemble, perform a functions-check on gun and do it blindfolded & in the dark? Field strip a firearm? Qualify as a "marksman" or "expert" or "sharpshooter" one of the three marksmanship badges awarded by US Army or USMC? Be highly proficient at firing guns accurately? Nope, nope, nope, nope imo.

Does ^ Bulletin #1 even require actor to have the SKILL to distinguish live ammunition from blank rounds from dummy inert rounds? Doubtful. IDK. Not clear to me.

AFAIK nobody is saying actors must be firearm experts.

Any actor, other cast or crew member slated to handle a firearm, should know & COMPLY w a few basic safety rules and be subject to criminal prosecution for injuries & deaths, the same as others not in entertainment/showbiz who are subject to crim prosecution. True, even if multiple OTHERS on the set FAIL to meet industry supervisory or administrative DUTIES.

In violating two basic firearm rules*** AB injured one & killed another.

_____________________________________
* SAG-AFTRA Statement Regarding New Charges in the 'Rust' Tragedy
** Page 8/11, sub¶g. https://www.env.nm.gov/occupational...-19-NM-OSHA-Rust-Summary-of-Investigation.pdf
*** Treat every gun as loaded until it is determined not to be.
Do not point your gun at anything unless you want to destroy it.

 

[MyBelle]

Do you think AB was over charged?

I don't believe AB should be charged at all. He was a Producer, but I think his producing responsibilities were limited to creative decisions. I agree with the conclusion of NMOSHA.

JMO

D.A. and OSHA Disagree on Alec Baldwin’s Culpability as ‘Rust’ Producer (EXCLUSIVE)

The D.A. holds Alec Baldwin responsible for management failures on 'Rust,' but OSHA determined he was not in charge.

variety.com

But in a parallel proceeding, the New Mexico division of the Occupational Safety and Health Administration found that Baldwin was not in charge and was not the one culpable for lax oversight.

“He didn’t actually have employees on-site that he or his delegated persons would manage or oversee,” said Lorenzo Montoya, OSHA’s lead investigator, in a deposition last month. Aside from his personal assistant, Montoya said, “He has no employee presence. He’s just him.”

 

[Cool Cats]

I don't believe AB should be charged at all. He was a Producer, but I think his producing responsibilities were limited to creative decisions. I agree with the conclusion of NMOSHA.

JMO

D.A. and OSHA Disagree on Alec Baldwin’s Culpability as ‘Rust’ Producer (EXCLUSIVE)

The D.A. holds Alec Baldwin responsible for management failures on 'Rust,' but OSHA determined he was not in charge.

variety.com

But in a parallel proceeding, the New Mexico division of the Occupational Safety and Health Administration found that Baldwin was not in charge and was not the one culpable for lax oversight.

“He didn’t actually have employees on-site that he or his delegated persons would manage or oversee,” said Lorenzo Montoya, OSHA’s lead investigator, in a deposition last month. Aside from his personal assistant, Montoya said, “He has no employee presence. He’s just him.”

‘Rust’ Prosecutors Allege Armorer Hannah Gutierrez-Reed Brought Live Ammunition Onto Set

The criminal trial for “Rust” armorer Hannah Gutierrez-Reed is scheduled to begin next month after being delayed from December 2023. The rookie armorer is facing two counts of involuntary manslaughter in connection with the death of “Rust” cinematographer Halyna Hutchins. She has also been...

www.yahoo.com

'Rust' prosecutors fear armorer will blame Halyna Hutchins death on 'Rust' firearm safety violations discovered by OSHA.​

The state requests all evidence and testimony of the OSHA findings be excluded.​

According to new court documents, prosecutors do not want Ms. Gutierrez-Reed to be allowed to mention the Rust set safety violation findings of the Occupational Health and Safety Bureau OSHA because they fear that she may try to use it to excuse her own culpability.

OSHA conducted an investigation and determined that Rust Management failed to ensure proper firearm safety procedures and was fined $100,000.00.

The jury may be confused that a legal finding was issued against Rust Management for firearm safety failures while trying to determine whether Ms. Gutierrez is guilty of Involuntary Manslaughter for her own
firearm safety failures.

They cite Rule 11-403.
The court may exclude relevant evidence if it is outweighed by one or more of the following:

Unfair prejudice
Confusing the issues
Misleading the jury
Undue delay
Wasting time
Needlessly presenting cumulative evidence

 

[Marantz4250b]

I didn't say or even imply that the union is on trial. I'm confident the jury will be comprised of people who either belong to a union or have a family member who are in a union. The reason unions exist is to ensure safer working conditions for workers engaged in dangerous work such as actors, railroads, movie/tv production, utility workers, teachers, etc.

HGR failed to do the job Rust Productions, LLC paid her to do. There were all kinds of safety violations around that set.

If the proposed firearm legislation bills pass in NM, I think those that foot the bill for movie production will decide there is too much red tape and not enough incentive in New Mexico.

JMO

'Rust' Armorer Hannah Gutierrez-Reed Seeks Dismissal or New Trial

Hannah Gutierrez-Reed is asking for her conviction to be dismissed or for a new trial in light of Alec Baldwin's case being dismissed.

www.etonline.com

According to an affidavit filed by the Santa Fe County’s Sheriff’s Office obtained by The Associated Press and The New York Times, assistant director Dave Halls unintentionally handed the actor the weapon and told him it was safe to use.

Per the affidavit, the assistant director did not know the prop gun was loaded with live rounds. It also notes that the weapon that was fired and Baldwin's wardrobe, which was blood-stained, were taken as evidence. Other prop guns, ammunition and any footage that might exist were also confiscated, AP reports. It's still unclear how many rounds were fired.

You said; BBM. I think the Union will win this one, not the elected prosecutor or the NM governor.

What evidence do you have that you can link to, please, which supports the statement;

HGR failed to do the job Rust Productions, LLC paid her to do.

We actually have very little evidence at all as to what she did or did not do that I can see. The gun passed through the possession of at least one other person (and who knows how many others and over what period of time) before it got to AB. Hannah Reed had no influence over it once it left her possession.

 

[Betty P]

‘Rust’ Prosecutors Allege Armorer Hannah Gutierrez-Reed Brought Live Ammunition Onto Set

The criminal trial for “Rust” armorer Hannah Gutierrez-Reed is scheduled to begin next month after being delayed from December 2023. The rookie armorer is facing two counts of involuntary manslaughter in connection with the death of “Rust” cinematographer Halyna Hutchins. She has also been...

www.yahoo.com

'Rust' prosecutors fear armorer will blame Halyna Hutchins death on 'Rust' firearm safety violations discovered by OSHA.​

The state requests all evidence and testimony of the OSHA findings be excluded.​

According to new court documents, prosecutors do not want Ms. Gutierrez-Reed to be allowed to mention the Rust set safety violation findings of the Occupational Health and Safety Bureau OSHA because they fear that she may try to use it to excuse her own culpability.

OSHA conducted an investigation and determined that Rust Management failed to ensure proper firearm safety procedures and was fined $100,000.00.

The jury may be confused that a legal finding was issued against Rust Management for firearm safety failures while trying to determine whether Ms. Gutierrez is guilty of Involuntary Manslaughter for her own
firearm safety failures.

They cite Rule 11-403.
The court may exclude relevant evidence if it is outweighed by one or more of the following:

Unfair prejudice
Confusing the issues
Misleading the jury
Undue delay
Wasting time
Needlessly presenting cumulative evidence

That's crazy.

Someone dies on a movie set due to lax safety precautions, yet prosecutors don't want to mention all the safety violations at trial? SMH

 

[Laughing]

That's crazy.

Someone dies on a movie set due to lax safety precautions, yet prosecutors don't want to mention all the safety violations at trial? SMH

imho, because the prosecutors charged HGR with the crime and the lengthy report indicates that others are to blame for the death.

The report lists safety violations created by HGR's employers.

Not by HGR, but by the producers & directors of the film.

Including AD Dave Hall, who already plead guilty.

JMHO ymmv lrr

 

[Marantz4250b]

That's crazy.

Someone dies on a movie set due to lax safety precautions, yet prosecutors don't want to mention all the safety violations at trial? SMH

I kinda see their argument but I think they're fishing for excuses here - possibly because they think they have a weak case? What they are saying is that the jury might be a bit thick and conflate the two issues which is a bit ridiculous, quite frankly.

Surely the whole point of prosecuting HR is that they're saying that she is the cause of the safety violations?

 

[Marantz4250b]

imho, because the prosecutors charged HGR with the crime and the lengthy report indicates that others are to blame for the death.

The report lists safety violations created by HGR's employers.

Not by HGR, but by the producers & directors of the film.

Including AD Dave Hall, who already plead guilty.

JMHO ymmv lrr

I can see where you're coming from but, from the prosecution point of view, yes, the company is liable but that doesn't mean that the safety violations - including whatever resulted in two people being shot - preclude Hannah being charged if she were responsible for them.

I get the impression, though, that the prosecution may not have a lot of faith in its own case, quite honestly.

As I mentioned up thread, there is actually very little in the public domain that I can find as to what Hanna Reed is supposed to have done (or not done), specifically, to cause the death of Halyna. Neither is there much I can find that speaks to her being grossly and repeatedly negligent as people seem to be saying she was. She wasn't unless someone can point to something specific.

Of course, we don't know what evidence the prosecution has. The US seems to be very big on both sides getting the main parts of their evidence out in public well in excess of the trial starting, that's not something we do here and we can debate the merits of that for ever, quite honestly. It's notable, however (at least to me), that the prosecution does not seem to have given any indication of the specific causal act or acts by HR which led to two people being shot. I'm curious as to what they have. Perhaps not much?

Does anyone know what date the trial is due to commence next month?