Hand off of Gabriel at Raymond Rimkus Park

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YellowSubmarine said:
Well, if she spoke with [most likely] TS on 12/22 when she said "what am I supposed to do, go back?" and TS fired off the txt to Logan that day (IIRC) about having to do something quick or she'd be gone forever -- I'm wondering if TS was threatening EJ with something and that's why she figured it'd be easier to ditch Gabe and take off. Kind of a "screw you all" attitude.

But, if this is all true - the HG would not have been the "middle man". If not, if he was just a friend or whatever, why would he not have come forward by now and said "hey, I'm the guy you're all talking about but I didn't do anything"?

Wasn't she seen with another couple before 12/23-24? Didn't she order several pizzas on 12/21? Who would that have been for if not a potential adoptive couple?
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i think time line here is important:

12/21- Babysitter ( that's when she's in a heated converstion and says "what am I suppose to do, come back" ?
12/22- Hair Salon-Conversation with someone ???
I think both are w/ TS...she got pissed off, 12/21, got pissed 12/22 .
 
or she was useing the couple/adoption agency for funds, with no intentions of giveing gabe up? until, she found out about the court hearing, and realized she was in trouble? so she fill in the blanks. Not sure about the rest. but maybe TS at this point thought EJ was still going to give Gabe to her?

OR. EJ is a very smart girl, and was useing everyone involved. She was useing TS to pull strings in AZ, to threaten logan to sign his rights away. then Logan problem solved. she is useing adoption agency/couple, to get on her feet, and then shrug them off. and her and Gabe live happily ever after. but it didn't work.

wild? crazy? Probably. Just another theory.
 
The only thing about Mr.Gambles theory EJ was going to "start over" with Gabe in SA -- I just keep hearing her GF talking about how she was never the mother type and never had that love a mother should have for her child.

I'm not discounting what Mr.Gamble said, he probably has good evidence. It just doesn't sound right to me.
 
YellowSubmarine said:
The only thing about Mr.Gambles theory EJ was going to "start over" with Gabe in SA -- I just keep hearing her GF talking about how she was never the mother type and never had that love a mother should have for her child.

I'm not discounting what Mr.Gamble said, he probably has good evidence. It just doesn't sound right to me.
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I agree, but I'm thinking that's a big part of why the "living in SA" thing didn't work, and she went for the hiding Gabe and going to FL until she figured out what she wanted to do.

She could torment Logan by leaving him thinking she had killed Gabe, and have some time without the responsibility of Gabe, which I don't imagine was very enjoyable for her alone in SA, and decide what she wanted to do, without having made any commitments yet in terms of giving Gabe up for adoption.

I think she was too angry - and maybe too depressed and also in some sort of psychological I-don't-know-what - to think or care too much about the legal ramifications. I don't think it was very real to her that what she was doing could land her in jail for 20 years.
 
Not sure is if this is the right place. I finally watched the 7 minute video of Ken Gamble. Has Elizabeth started talking? All reports have been that she is not, but in interview with K. Galble he talks about her "full admissions"....does that mean she is cooperative with LE now?
 
YellowSubmarine said:
I agree BeanE -- the article quotes Gamble as saying he believed EJ was going to start a new life in SA but something changed 12/23-24 and she decided to give Gabe away and flee. We need to gather what we know of those days and figure out what happened and who may have been the problem.
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From the timeline.....

BBM

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94742"]Timeline - Tuesday, December 22, 2009 through Friday, December 25, 2009 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

The Smiths text Logan asking to get together the morning of December 23 to talk with Logan and his father. They say that they're afraid Elizabeth will be "gone forever" because she doesn't want to go to jail for kidnapping. They say that Elizabeth doesn't trust Logan or his father, and that the only way she'll come back is if the Smith's attorney faxes signed papers to her so she won't get in trouble, and Gabriel will be with the Smiths.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009

Tammi has stated that Elizabeth told her she was going to a domestic violence shelter. Tammi has indicated two different dates on which this conversation could have occurred: December 23 or December 26. Please see my Domestic Violence Shelter post for more information: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/blog.php?b=618

On December 23, Tammi posts on her FaceBook that Elizabeth and Gabriel were on the road, that Elizabeth found 'an underground help' in TX. She writes that the 'help' had given Elizabeth formula, diapers, etc, and all the legal 'formalities'.

Tammi says she posted this because she 'was somewhat threatened' by Logan. Tammi said she posted it also to let Logan knew that the Smiths didn`t want any further involvement with Elizabeth, Gabriel, or Logan.

Elizabeth has a babysitter watch Gabriel at the hotel from 11:45am until 1:30pm.

Elizabeth is angry that the babysitter is late arriving.

Elizabeth is dressed in very tight low-cut jeans, a tight midriff blouse, and stilettos. Her clothing is inappropriate to the cool weather that day.

Elizabeth does not tell the babysitter where she was going.

When Elizabeth returns, she receives a phone call.

The phone call lasts approximately five minutes.

The babysitter hears a female 'yelling', but can not make out the words on the other end.

Elizabeth asks the caller, "What am I supposed to do? Just go back?"

After hanging up, Elizabeth tells the babysitter that the person on the call was her grandmother.

Elizabeth says her grandmother was scared because Logan was threatening her because he wanted to know where Elizabeth and Gabriel were. Elizabeth says she's in a custody battle with Logan

The babysitter asks Elizabeth if she'd need her services again, and Elizabeth says she's unsure because she doesn't know what she's going to do next with her life.

LE later interviews Elizabeth's grandmother, who denies having the phone conversation.

Elizabeth's grandfather has stated that when he visited her in jail, she said she had gone to the library during the time the babysitter watched Gabriel.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I strongly believe it was TPS on the phone with EJ on the 23rd (not grandmother). TPS stated she was somewhat threatened by Logan and then EJ confirms the threatening with the grandmother lie in the same day.
 
I am so po'd that this is not getting national news attention. The new information I think is huge and it would get more eyes out there.
 
BeanE said:
I think she was too angry - and maybe too depressed and also in some sort of psychological I-don't-know-what - to think or care too much about the legal ramifications. I don't think it was very real to her that what she was doing could land her in jail for 20 years.
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I thought that too at first, but then I changed my mind. I think she did/does know. I think that her not talking is part of the deal; give the couple time to relocate without raising red flags, give Gabriel time for his appearance to change naturally, give time for people's memories to fade about what they saw and when and where. I am betting that she got a small payment upfront with a third party holding the rest of the money until the coast is clear. I am also willing to bet that this all came about once EJ realized through TS's baby craziness, just how valuable Gabriel could be to a couple without a baby.
 
I don't think EJ had a "plan" at the point in time she gave Gabriel to the couple. I think she was ready to get the heck out of there. I don't think there was money. I think she just wanted someone who wouldn't give him to LM, and that was a couple. TS knew the right person (second best only to her of course), and she sent them. These people have strong beliefs, just like TS. They are either friend/family/associates of hers. I wouldn't doubt if there's some church connection, as I get a little fanatical feeling from TS. In fact, if they are family/friends/associates of her (I'm thinking TN), they probably also attended the same church whenever they lived in the same city/town. MOO.
 
kissdegirl said:
I don't think EJ had a "plan" at the point in time she gave Gabriel to the couple. I think she was ready to get the heck out of there. I don't think there was money. I think she just wanted someone who wouldn't give him to LM, and that was a couple. TS knew the right person (second best only to her of course), and she sent them. These people have strong beliefs, just like TS. They are either friend/family/associates of hers. I wouldn't doubt if there's some church connection, as I get a little fanatical feeling from TS. In fact, if they are family/friends/associates of her (I'm thinking TN), they probably also attended the same church whenever they lived in the same city/town. MOO.
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I'm with you!
 
Trying to find clues as to why this park...and trying to keep it simple....no huge underground thing, no wild goose chases, just simple....and going by KG's suggestion that he doesn't believe they live in SA.
The couple got a hotel near there, that's my vote. That makes sense, and it's simple. They're near EJ's hotel, and this park was right in between EJ and the hotel, IMO.

Look at the nearest one, "A"...pretty darn close. I looked at the satelite view from that hotel, and I wonder if the couple could have even seen the park in the distance from their room. Maybe not, but if they chose this hotel because it was off the beaten path, then a park near their hotel would make sense. They probably even checked out the morning of Dec 27th, before 10am, and went and picked up Gabriel at the park before heading off on their road trip to wherever.
http://maps.google.com/maps?near=Ra...9.48862,-98.597317&spn=0.068884,0.153637&z=13
 
kissdegirl said:
Trying to find clues as to why this park...and trying to keep it simple....no huge underground thing, no wild goose chases, just simple....and going by KG's suggestion that he doesn't believe they live in SA.
The couple got a hotel near there, that's my vote. That makes sense, and it's simple. They're near EJ's hotel, and this park was right in between EJ and the hotel, IMO.

Look at the nearest one, "A"...pretty darn close. I looked at the satelite view from that hotel, and I wonder if the couple could have even seen the park in the distance from their room. Maybe not, but if they chose this hotel because it was off the beaten path, then a park near their hotel would make sense. They probably even checked out the morning of Dec 27th, before 10am, and went and picked up Gabriel at the park before heading off on their road trip to wherever.
http://maps.google.com/maps?near=Ra...9.48862,-98.597317&spn=0.068884,0.153637&z=13
Click to expand...

If you go to street view and drive down up Highway16 (Bandera Rd), toward Huebner, driving up the road from the hotel, and at the intersection to turn to the park (Poss Rd), there is a green sign that reads "Leon Valley Community Center -->). They may have seen that after eating at Arby's or driving up that road, and checked it out. Just saying.

Now back to finding them. :)
 
Just a thought:
Is it possible that the phone call overheard by the babysitter in the hotel room was actually with a Crisis Center/Women's Shelter liason?
I think we've all focused on it being someone EJ knew well because AU said the woman was yelling.
But imagine a different scenario:
EJ contacts a shelter or center. Tells them some story about Logan being abusive and Gabriel being in danger. The shelter/center is legit, so they follow up on her information and check into her back in Arizona. They see that she has charges out on her for violence and destruction of property when Gabriel was in her care, they see that Logan is going by the book to try to get Gabriel in a better situation, that he's contacted CPS, etc. etc. They see that she is supposed to go to a hearing on Dec. 28th and obviously won't be there.
Maybe they told her they can't help her and she needs to go about this the proper/legal way. I could see someone at one of these shelters getting very upset with EJ in this situation. I'm sure many shelter volunteers have been in situations in their past that caused them to want to help others. I know many of these shelters cater to a woman and believe the woman, but there is pretty compelling evidence available that EJ was the violent one that didn't have Gabe's best interest at heart.

Just a theory. I'm not even saying I believe this over the possibility that it was TPS. But I wanted to share the thought.
 
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