I totally agree. I think either the police lied about some details in the description as a strategic move not trying to scare JM or maybe the WG memory wasn't so great because I don't think he talked to police until a few days later.
Hannah's Journey on 09/13
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I totally agree. I think either the police lied about some details in the description as a strategic move not trying to scare JM or maybe the WG memory wasn't so great because I don't think he talked to police until a few days later.
Or maybe he wanted to give a the impression that he wasn't really that bothered, wasn't all that interested in her, didn't look too closely, in case police said "well why were YOU following her, why were YOU so interested?"
mysterious minds
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Who are you referring to as "hugging Hannah" and then "the next camera with his arm around her"? I've seen it mentioned several times and am confused by this extra guy being talked about. Is that the JM footage in front of the jewelry store before they got to Tempo? Then I definitely don't understand how the same BG goes from having a bald head to dreads. And the WG definitely assessed the situation for a while. It appears that he had Hannah on his radar a lot longer than JM did. Didn't he admit that he was concerned and had followed her for a while but decided she was ok when BG appeared. Was he referring to JM or a different guy? I always thought he was referring to what we see in the footage when JM catches up with her after Sal's area.
Conductor71
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I have yet to see footage of JM touching HG. I lost track of what is eyewitness testimony vs. on camera vs. forensic link long ago lol
mysterious minds
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Just to clarify, I was referencing what other people have commented on about hugging, arm around, etc.
I think the last footage in front of jewelry shop is when he has arm around her and WG is still following them. I need to check it out. But it still doesn't coincide with WG being off base about hair and clothing description.
MMLTW, CvilleMother & klily444: : IMO, the combination of your individual theories/insights provides what I believe to be the exact circumstances that caused Hannah to become lost and take the route that she took.
A brief synthesis of MMLTW, CvilleMother & klily444's posts:
After finding herself lost and wandering for a bit, Hannah resorts to using her phone's GPS to lead her back to the area of her apartment/the parties. The central intersection near that area is 14th and Main.
However, when Main Street crosses 14th, the name of Main Street changes to University Avenue. Unaware of this easily overlooked technicality, Hannah inputs "14th and Main" into her phone's GPS.
Since, technically, the intersection of 14th and Main does not exist, Google Maps defaults to "4th and Main." (If you input 14th and Main yourself, you will find that it indeed defaults to 4th and Main).
Assuming that Hannah was close to Grady Avenue when she input 14th and Main into her phone, the exact route Hannah took that night is the route that her GPS would have provided.
***All credit for these ideas and theories goes to MMLTW, CvilleMother & klily444. I contributed nothing. I merely summarized their posts into a short, cohesive story. I would have quoted each of their posts here but could not figure out how to do so.***
A brief synthesis of MMLTW, CvilleMother & klily444's posts:
After finding herself lost and wandering for a bit, Hannah resorts to using her phone's GPS to lead her back to the area of her apartment/the parties. The central intersection near that area is 14th and Main.
However, when Main Street crosses 14th, the name of Main Street changes to University Avenue. Unaware of this easily overlooked technicality, Hannah inputs "14th and Main" into her phone's GPS.
Since, technically, the intersection of 14th and Main does not exist, Google Maps defaults to "4th and Main." (If you input 14th and Main yourself, you will find that it indeed defaults to 4th and Main).
Assuming that Hannah was close to Grady Avenue when she input 14th and Main into her phone, the exact route Hannah took that night is the route that her GPS would have provided.
***All credit for these ideas and theories goes to MMLTW, CvilleMother & klily444. I contributed nothing. I merely summarized their posts into a short, cohesive story. I would have quoted each of their posts here but could not figure out how to do so.***
Conductor71
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True, but without toxicology reports, it is difficult to say to what level. Though we do have insiders here asserting that HG's text messages became increasingly erratic.
What I don't get is how at McGrady's someone offers to help her and she declines saying "I am just walking." It was reported by LE that before she left a frat party, a male acquaintance offered to walk her home. At Tempo, it is reported that she cannot stand on her own. No one offers her help at this point though. Same with HM, the more she seemed to need help the less likely anyone offered it.
http://inthecapital.streetwise.co/2014/09/16/police-reveal-new-details-about-missing-uva-student/
This is where the comparison to where HM comes into play for me. BOTH girls were offered help and declined, yet allegedly JM pops up when they are both at their most vulnerable; when they both have reached their breaking points and are willing to accept help from just anyone. Both, IMO, seem to be increasingly erratic in behavior and ability to walk. They are at their worst right before they disappear. SEems to me that both were given some sort of substance beyond alcohol to make sure they were both desperate and uttterly compliant.
However, that substance had to have been given to them prior to the time JM appears on the scene for it to take full effect. This leaves me thinking that there is way more to this story. Both girls were LURED away from their friends; watched/stalked, and then picked up or rather abducted at their breaking points, IMO.
Maybe this is coincidental, but either JM (if he did do it) is far more cunning and resourceful than we give him credit for; he has an accomplice, or LE has the wrong guy under arrest. He would need a sixth sense or be a lost, stranded girl whisperer in order to know when to swoop in and "rescue" her, so she was at point where she would willingly go. It is just too coincidental that he happened upon both and they willingly went along in a matter of minutes? HG does not appear vulnerable at least physically on the footage we see before and with JM.
The only other situation I can envision is that each girl felt safe enough to go off into night with a stranger is that someone was posing as LE or security of some sort; if JM had still been a cabbie and picked up HG, I would be more on board with the charges and allegations leveled at him. Right now, I am still skeptical. Yes, even with DNA link.
AFAIK the WG who called in the tip was a bouncer at Fusion and I'm not sure if it was the guy on the video.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/10/16/graham-mystery-murder-charlottesville/17216765/
Also in the video all we see is a man walking, stop to look at his phone while stepping back a bit from foot traffick, and then continuing on his way. So many people thought he was super suspicious but I don't see how you could gleam that from a grainy video of a man just checking his cell phone. How man other people stopped walking to check their phone that night or on any given night? Tons, I'm sure of it.
In the beginning Longo said she was being followed in the Tuel's video and that man is who they were looking for. At that time he did not see JLM and thought what was seen was a reflection in the window. He even said later that he had only noticed JLM after others had pointed it out to him (IMO it was thanks to WS because several of us saw JLM clear as day)
The man who was walking behind them appeared to be wearing a white shirt and dark pants and had a slight beer belly. This is the description they gave out in the beginning.
I am going to assume that WG called in the tip initially and mentioned a black man with Hannah but probably did not remember the clothes he was wearing. So, LE went back to the tapes, saw who they THOUGHT was the perp following her and ASSUMED it was the right guy. So they took the description from that and released it and not til later did they realize there was actually someone walking NEXT TO Hannah.
IMO this is the only logical explanation.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/10/16/graham-mystery-murder-charlottesville/17216765/
I am assuming this is WG. I am also assuming, like most people, he was not so good at remembering descriptions so he could not recall JLM's hairstyle or clothing that night. But he did remember his interaction with Hannah.
Skigirl
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To clarify: eyewitness said "hugged," and those of us who've watched the video, and now the police, say that in Tuel's you can see JM's arm around Hannah.
This article sums it all up.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2760793/Hunt-mystery-man-seen-arm-missing-UVA-student-police-release-new-surveillance-footage-showing-teen-followed-stumbled-deserted-mall.html
The description (black pants, white shirt, beer belly, shaved head) is given by the WG in the video on DTM. It is not from the bouncer at McGrady's or the witness from Fusion.
That article is before they knew JLM was in these videos. As a side note, I wonder if they would ever have released these if they had known he was in them. They haven't released the video they say they have of JLM and HG after Tempo.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2760793/Hunt-mystery-man-seen-arm-missing-UVA-student-police-release-new-surveillance-footage-showing-teen-followed-stumbled-deserted-mall.html
The description (black pants, white shirt, beer belly, shaved head) is given by the WG in the video on DTM. It is not from the bouncer at McGrady's or the witness from Fusion.
That article is before they knew JLM was in these videos. As a side note, I wonder if they would ever have released these if they had known he was in them. They haven't released the video they say they have of JLM and HG after Tempo.
Have you actually watched the cctv? Hannah's entire time at McGrady's is on the cctv and at no point is there anyone hugging her.
Skigirl
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Tuel's video. Take a look at the highest-resolution one you can find (they vary in quality, presumably because it was sent around on the internet at different resolutions for the sake of speed/space). This is a decent one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmfLTWEuQEU. First, just watch the whole thing. Notice how their gait is coordinated. Then, watching it again, focus on the area around her shoulderblade. You can see his arm. (Or at least I can.) Stop the video at .06 and .07. Take a close look. It's the same guy as seen in the Sal's video. Same socks, same shorts. Arm around her shoulder.
Conductor71
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[/B]
http://www.c-ville.com/hannah-graham-tracking-investigation-far/#.VE0k0fnF8r6
Wednesday, September 17: Major papers across the U.S. pick up the story. Police announce theyve seen the Downtown Mall footage, and say a witnessthe white man seen following her in one videohas described seeing her talking with an unidentified black man, who put his arm around Graham. At 3pm, Charlottesville Police Chief Timothy Longo holds the first press conference and urges landowners to walk their properties looking for signs of Graham.
Thursday, September 18: Police release the witnesss description of the person seen talking to Graham: A heavyset black man in his 20s or 30s, with a goatee and a closely shaved head. The city announces its joining local businesses and individuals in offering a $50,000 total reward for information leading to the cause of her disappearance. Hundreds of UVA students gather at the UVA Amphitheater at 9pm for a candlelight vigil.
Friday, September 19: Early in the morning, police execute search warrants on an apartment on Hessian Hills Way in Albemarle, spending hours searching a burnt-orange Chrysler and an apartment, but making no arrests. At 5pm, Longo holds a second press conference, where he describes the cars owner, who lives in the apartment, as a person of interest in the case. He turns out to be the man visible in the Sals footagea man with dreadlocks, not a close-shaved head, as the witness remembered. Police say they believe Graham may have left downtown in his car after visiting Tempo.
[/I]
JMO, but looks to me they had MH in mind nearly right away. Focus shifts from WG to Fairfax sketch early on then to JM? JM wasn't linked in press until 9/29.
Why else have landowners walking their properties?
Hope all the conflicting and erroneous eyewitness testimony gets sorted out.
Skigirl
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There are five videos that have been made public. One is at McGrady's. She is alone. The next is the gas station. She is alone. The next one is right before she turns onto the mall (IIR) and is available on the insidecville website (the only one not released by police). She is alone. The next is Sal's. She is alone, but it's the first glimpse we get of JM turn on his heel and head in her direction. Final video that's been made public is Tuel's, a jeweler's, and she is with JM (or someone who looks remarkably like him, if you still have any doubt he's the one responsible.)
Do you have a link to the one the police didn't release? Its the only one I haven't seen. I will have a google and see if I can find it.
Skigirl
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I know it is really hard to believe unless you have a) done experiments in this area and asked people to remember very salient features and watched dozens of them misdescribe even the most obvious things, or b) been a witness to a crime and found yourself with the subjective feeling that everything is absolutely seared into your memory, only to find yourself saying to the police, "I guess he may have been african-american... but I can't really be sure. He was wearing a hood, I think I saw very curly hair sticking out, but... now that you ask...". I'm supposedly an expert in human memory and have done lots of experiments showing that people remember things very poorly, and I was also witness to someone fleeing the scene of a crime, once. I saw it so clearly, yet when it came right down to specific features, I remembered it so poorly.
Skigirl
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Sure -- it is extremely grainy and did not get much play:
http://insidecville.com/blog/exclusive-new-video-footage-of-hannah/
http://insidecville.com/blog/exclusive-new-video-footage-of-hannah/
CvilleMother
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I would guess she knew the intersection as 14th and University, and not as 14th and main.
However, there are some brand new student apartments on west main, and I could easily see her looking for those apartments, being told, "go to the corner of 14th and Main and turn left" and getting all sorts of turned around because she walked to the end of 14th and found herself on University, so she turned and went the other way on 14th and found herself on preston when 14th ended, and never found Main St so she kept walking toward downtown--possibly because she knew that the apartments she was lookng for were on Main St. between downtown and the corner.
However, there are some brand new student apartments on west main, and I could easily see her looking for those apartments, being told, "go to the corner of 14th and Main and turn left" and getting all sorts of turned around because she walked to the end of 14th and found herself on University, so she turned and went the other way on 14th and found herself on preston when 14th ended, and never found Main St so she kept walking toward downtown--possibly because she knew that the apartments she was lookng for were on Main St. between downtown and the corner.
14th and Main St. does exist and shows up on Google and Bing maps
I mentioned before that 14th and Main St. doesn't exist then someone told me it does and that Main St. turns into University Ave. after 14th St. and I looked more closely and it is true. If she put 14th and Main into her phone it would work fine. But the name changes of some roads could have confused her.