Heart-Shaped Sticker On Tape Over Caylee's Mouth

[Wudge]

Do you have a citation for that legal standard of "clear and unyielding evidence?" :waitasec:I've never seen that legal standard in a statute or jury instructions. Just wondering where you got it.

No. The source was Arthur Miller -- Harvard Law Professor version, not the playwright.

Obviously, if evidence is not clear, it can't be "reliable". And if the defense offers a reasonable explanation for an item of evidence, jurors are mandated to hold that evidence for the defense. In other words, they must "yield" that evidence in favor of the defense.

 

[impatientredhead]

Agreed. But how is the prosecution going to prove that Caylee died as the result of murder or aggravated child abuse, rather than as the result of an accident? If they're going with the 'death by chloroform' storyline, which it looks like, are they going to try to weave the duct tape evidence into that, because you don't need to tape a small child's mouth shut to knock them out with chloroform. And what about the Zanex (sp) theme, or the 'hints' about child medications? Will they just leave that out of their storyline, because I will bet that the defense will question how they selected one theory over another. The defense may also make reference to the evidence about the pool (ladder/open gate) and ask why that has been discounted. It just seems to me that on the evidence we have seen so far, the prosecution appears to be still shooting off in several different directions.

Wrapping duct tape around the mouth of a toddler, which any reasonable person would surmise might cause suffocation or choking to death on one's own vomit, is a premeditated act. It requires forethought, with ample opportunity to stop yourself during the act, and time to remove it and seek help. At a minimum it is death during aggravated child abuse.

And yes Wudge I know that the indictment is for 782.04(1)(a)(1) which is the premeditated murder charge. But as you know the jury can be given options of lesser or equal crimes at the time of jury instruction. It is not a coincidence that she is also indicted for aggravated child abuse.

 

[JBean]

Helloo. This thread is about the red heart sticker not law schools.
If you don;t like a posters pov challenge it and have a discussion or ignore it if you can't take the debate.
My gosh.

 

[JBean]

Now that I've said the above, I think KC did leave the prosecution some material to work with. Let's start with but a very small sampling of Photobucket images she uploaded before and after June 16:

JWG when I clicked on your post, I thought all this was your new signature. I almost banned you.

 

[Devon]

Putting the sticker on top of the duct tape that was across the skull and mouth shows premeditation to me. A person would have to duct tape the mouth around the head first. Not just a piece of tape over the mouth, but wrapped all the way around the head for no reason at all. If you're dead you don't need duct tape to keep quiet. Then a person would have to get the big idea to put a sticker on the mouth area, go find the stickers, peel it off, etc. Who the heck would do something like that if they just accidentally killed a child. Casey didn't even have a big window of time to do all this if George told the truth about seeing the girls that afternoon. Casey could also have used the sticker to hold something else in place or show her where to drip the chloroform. It's probably something besides a sentimental sorry to have killed you thing. I just wonder if something was placed over the eyes and it may have come off.

Bolded by me

And who would go to all that bother if they'd just deliberately murdered their child?

 

[BaileyandBella]

IMO...not only is the heart narcissistic and sociopathic, but also passive/aggressive.

I can just see KC saying something like "Oh.....my little girl, yes, you are silenced now and gone, but look what I did for you, I put this pretty heart sticker on you".

:furious:

 

[MarleneM]

(tip of my hat)

As long as the defense offers a reasonable explanation, by law, jurors must accept it. This is true even if the prosecution offers a more reasonable explanation.

If that is true, then history tells me there are many cases that trouble you as being miscarriages of justice. I predict this case is only going to add to your frustration.

 

[MOMto5]

ITA. When a sociopath extends a loving gesture it many times comes off weird because they can't relate to that emotion. Which, IMO Casey did with the sticker. In her crippled emotional mind she thought it was a loving gesture, but it merely came off macabre and bizarre.

That's exactly how it came across to me.

ETA: I'm not saying I think it was a loving gesture, I have no idea why in world she would put this sticker there. It's sick. I definately think it was macabre and bizarre.

 

[Whisperer]

Ok...you all know I'm a fairly reasonable person, right? Ok...I've had some pretty crappy things happen in my life so I know what anger is. Well, I just heard a snippet on HLN about the duct tape and I raged so. It was a good thing I was in the car alone. I have never in all my life felt such anger towards someone. You have NO IDEA the kinds of torture I was envisioning for this worthless human being. I may have to rethink my diagnosis of Casey because for anyone to do what she did is beyond crazy. I apologize if I offended anyone.

You have not offended me and I am sure most here. Casey is a psychopath. her family knew she had problems .. they called her a sociopath, close. Why did they let her alone with this child? I can understand they weren't thinking murder but with kc's symptoms, any reasonable parent would not allow their child with her if they were witness to previous behavior....we have seen it....it was not new.

Are they going to say they couldn't afford child-care. This is disgusting.

 

[reeseeva]

ITA. When a sociopath extends a loving gesture it many times comes off weird because they can't relate to that emotion. Which, IMO Casey did with the sticker. In her crippled emotional mind she thought it was a loving gesture, but it merely came off macabre and bizarre.

:clap::clap:

This was exactly my first impression!

 

[angeleleven]

I don't see it that way at all because I'm not ignoring the fact that the heart shape sticker is attached on top of Duct Tape. I try to envision KC (or anyone) showing "love" by ignoring to remove the duct tape before disposing of Caylee's abused body. I fail to see any "love" in decorating the duct tape. I see the sticker as a mockery of the love that was given to Caylee by CA & GA. I see the sticker as a "kiss of death" or "good riddance" by someone who was getting off on enacting their hatred and/or jealousy of Caylee.

Being double-bagged and tossed into the woods like common trash shows no respect or love for Caylee in my perception of the evidence. The "heart-on-top" strikes me more as the "cherry-on-top" to a very hateful person.

I agree, very well put.....I agree with your thoughts.

 

[alwaysonmymind]

Bolded by me

And who would go to all that bother if they'd just deliberately murdered their child?

Someone who has fabricated a non-existent nanny.
Someone who is going to accuse the imaginanny of kidnapping said child.
Somone who is staging a fake kidnapping by doing these disturding things to their own child. moo

 

[Indigo]

Bolded by me

And who would go to all that bother if they'd just deliberately murdered their child?

Many murderers have been known to add ritualistic flourishes. Casey's saved art on her computer shows she had a fascination with the death/love theme.

 

[Dr. Know?]

My original thought being a rookie in this type of sleuthing, is she either did one of two things at this point in time for Caylee to be dead.

The duct tape suggests intentions to harm or make someone to be quiet, possibly kill someone.

The heart on the tape means regret/or a cute way to say I love you at Valentines day by decorating to identify? (sad)

The regret because she didn't mean to kill Caylee or she felt bad because her life was worth more at that point, after her past last months/days with the family and dealing with her actions were strained. And here's Tone. Or "I'm Sorry, Caylee it's all about me episode & I've had enough?" Just thinking aloud.

I do believe if her family had let her talk, she would have. Feels like some ideas of what happened in this case were put in her mouth. Other times, KC seems to be ready to mistruth her way out of it. Can't imagine playing that game with an adult child.

 

[impatientredhead]

IMO...not only is the heart narcissistic, but also passive/aggressive.

I can just see KC saying something like "Oh.....my little girl, yes, you are silenced now and gone, but look what I did for you, I put this pretty heart sticker on you".

:furious:

Everyone's interpretations of the sticker are so varied, very interesting takes.

The context that comes to mind for me is:

Casey and Caylee locked in the room after the fight.
Caylee wants the sticker.
Casey wants to play cellphone games with Tony.
Caylee asking/bothering/making Tony want to get off the phone so Casey can be a mom (the horror) ends with duct tape over Caylee's mouth to shut her up and a "here's your f'ing sticker".
That sounds more like the gal I have seen in the jailhouse calls than a symbolic kiss goodbye.

I think Caylee died in the room that night and that Casey didn't come out of the room until George left for work. Her cellphone and internet useage seems to support that.

 

[Wudge]

Wrapping duct tape around the mouth of a toddler, which any reasonable person would surmise might cause suffocation or choking to death on one's own vomit, is a premeditated act. It requires forethought, with ample opportunity to stop yourself during the act, and time to remove it and seek help. At a minimum it is death during aggravated child abuse.

And yes Wudge I know that the indictment is for 782.04(1)(a)(1) which is the premeditated murder charge. But as you know the jury can be given options of lesser or equal crimes at the time of jury instruction. It is not a coincidence that she is also indicted for aggravated child abuse.

Aggravated child abuse is not a lesser crime of murder one.

Murder two would be a lesser crime, but she is not charged with murder two (also requires proof of malice aforethought). Prosecutors skipped murder two and added manslaughter to the indictment.

Aggravated child abuse stands apart from both manslaughter and murder one -- prosecutors do not claim that Caylee died from aggravated child abuse.

When the indictment was handed down, this mish-mash of charges told me that prosecutors did not have a clue as to what really happened. Rather, they cast a wide net in the hopes that they might get lucky and ensnare something. Since then, prosecutors have dropped the death penalty, which indicated to me that the signals my antenna picked up were indeed accurate.

 

[reeseeva]

Now that I've said the above, I think KC did leave the prosecution some material to work with. Let's start with but a very small sampling of Photobucket images she uploaded before and after June 16:

Startling images JWG, Could you post a link to her photobucket pics & icons? I know musikman had quite a few, but they won't download or are gone. In the sticky threads, they have been removed, when you click on.

Thanks

 

[txsvicki]

Bolded by me

And who would go to all that bother if they'd just deliberately murdered their child?

Possibly, like I said, to show exactly where the mouth was for some other reason. It could even be like some sick medical procedure where a child is given a sticker after a medical procedure.

 

[Dr. Know?]

It also states in one of the documents that with all the other evidence taken, hair had been pulled from Casey for testing...right now, I sure wish I had been the one helping to pull the hair out!!!!

I thought that too when DNA samples were being taken. I laughed today when I read the reports about hair being "pulled" from the scalp and laughed. You nailed my thoughts! Thanks, and sorry if O/T.

 

[Wudge]

If that is true

SNIP

It's absolutely true. It's part of jury instructions in every state.