Will an encryption key even exist, in the new paradigm?
Holly Bobo, missing from TN 2014 discussion #5 ***ARRESTS***
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Will an encryption key even exist, in the new paradigm?
Mightymight
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It is my understanding that the encryption key is the password/fingerprint that is set by the user (that will be protected by the 5th amendment). Apple will no longer have access to this in iOS8
My understanding is that no company will have the encryption key. If Apple wants to promote devices that big bro cannot get to, it would be a folly to trust that ability to some company outside of Apple.
AmandaReckonwith
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Mightymight
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Agreed. The only one with the key is the owner/user of the phone.
Please humor an old reading/civics teacher here. I know that drawing a conclusion is not stating fact. Drawing a conclusion is accomplished by both using the information available and your own personal experience. Do you think it would be a correct conclusion that Apple not having the encryption key would then be able to refuse a properly drawn and executed subpoena or search warrant. I don't see how that would be possible for them to do. It seems to me that, if so, Apple is putting itself above the law that other people and companies must follow. I can foresee many challenges of this policy in court.
I'm not sure what you're trying to theorize, but it's clearly a fact that a subpoena or a search warrant is meaningless when served on a party that doesn't possess (or have the ability to possess) what LE is trying to obtain. For example, you could get a subpoena or search warrant for the Titanic on my property, but it's not doing you any good even if you get it.
Of course, one of the elements for a sw is for LE to demonstrate a likelihood that the search will produce what's being searched for, so given the fact that Apple won't have the info, a court would probably refuse such a quixotic request if asked.
But even if they got past that hurdle, if Apple doesn't have any ability to access customer password-protected info, all the court orders in the world allowing LE to force such info from Apple won't matter.
I am not theorizing anything just asking a question. However, imo, Apple being the designer, manufacturer, and patent holder of the iphone, would be ultimately responsible for access to their product. Making oneself unable to help LE after having a subpoena or search warrant served is, imo, creating your own play rules that other people/companies don't use.
MizStery
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Hi Pearl,
Your Question:
"Do you think it would be a correct conclusion that Apple not having the encryption key would then be able to refuse a properly drawn and executed subpoena or search warrant. I don't see how that would be possible for them to do."
Algorithms for encryption are more sophisticated to thwart hackers.There is a race to work towards unbreakable encryption. This is largely due because of the evolving speed of processors. The race to an unbreakable encryption is to protect sensitive data from hackers. So,I cannot honestly answer your question.But,since it is proprietary we assume Apple's claims for iOS8 is accurate:at least until proved other wise. But,I am taking a wait and see position. MOO
It appears to me that you are asking one question, but arguing a different one.
Your question was, would Apple be able to refuse a subpoena or avoid a sw if they didn't have something that LE wishes they had. The answer to that is unquestionably yes. LE cannot force someone to give to LE what they don't possess, own, or have control over.
The issue of whether Apple could permissibly create a product that might later put them in that position is a much different issue.
To that question, there's probably a lot of disagreement in an NSA-must-know-all world, but whatever anyone's answer to that might be, it becomes a moot issue after the product has been invented and sold without Apple having a backdoor of some sort. If they don't have a way to get in, then it's like the manufacturer who sells locks without having a master key - if the key is lost, or someone wants to get in, calling the manufacturer is pointless.
sophiebelle
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On the Apple 8 thing, I think some creepers would get that phone for the reason it's being made. I think these companies are tired of hiring people to do research for LE. It was the first thing that popped into my head. Their ad should read "You can go anywhere and do anything with this phone. Nobody will find out where you are or where you have been. You can send *advertiser censored*, sext messages, and stalk people. You can even make threats. Don't even ask us for data!" The only proof will be the receiver of messages. Not sure though if pings would still be available.
It's an interesting issue, because it might cut both ways. As I understand it, in such a setup as Apple is going to, if you lose your own password, you can't ask Apple (or anyone else) to find it for you. You would lose all your saved info, data, and pics and have to start over with a new password.
Which format will customers prefer, the one where no one can get in (maxing out their privacy at all costs) or the one where there's a backdoor (maxing out their protected access at the risk of some privacy)?
Which format will customers prefer, the one where no one can get in (maxing out their privacy at all costs) or the one where there's a backdoor (maxing out their protected access at the risk of some privacy)?
There are many things that LE can do in regard to cell phones. I attached a SW and subsequent info of another case from this year here on WS. A triple murder from San Diego. This SW details some of the case and how they "dumped" the cell tower's activity during a particular time and narrowed it down. I found it interesting. It's kind of a long read but to me shows what can be done. This info came to light recently at a prelim hearing as there was no GJ involved.
These three young people were killed on Christmas Eve.
And granted, it is CA and TN. But seems to me it should be possible.
http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kfmb/misc/x46712.pdf
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...lona-Flint-(22)-San-Diego-23-Dec-2013-3/page3
These three young people were killed on Christmas Eve.
And granted, it is CA and TN. But seems to me it should be possible.
http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kfmb/misc/x46712.pdf
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...lona-Flint-(22)-San-Diego-23-Dec-2013-3/page3
Having scanned through the info you linked, I am curious - How does any of this relate to either the HB case, or to the Apple discussion? Or is it somewhat of a new issue that you are wanting us to look at?
I don't see the connection to either the discussions on the HB case, or to those on Apple, but maybe I missed something.
shefner
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With all the technology in the world, we think a little old iPhone can't be broken into by some of the world's best investigators (not TBI per se....but at least the FBI)?
Crazy. It can be done. It may take a while but they will do it. Now why the heck would Jeff not give them the simple pass key? Because Jeff has something to hide.
Crazy. It can be done. It may take a while but they will do it. Now why the heck would Jeff not give them the simple pass key? Because Jeff has something to hide.
I am wondering if LE can "dump" a cell towers activity during a certain time frame why not do the same for the time frame surrounding Holly's abduction. Who, if any of the suspects were calling each other and when. I found it interesting how LE can connect by process of elimination 63,000 calls to 711 and then down some more. I suppose it is a "new issue" to the degree that today's Apple seems to download to the "cloud" and not on the hardware itself. Whereas 3 1/2 years ago I don't believe that technology was on the market.
Along with that SW there is one having to do with a "dealer" GB was involved with and how LE had a "forensic" cell phone department open it up with that SW, yet the dealer had reset the memory back to factory default which wiped the memory.
JMO's and Questions
Along with that SW there is one having to do with a "dealer" GB was involved with and how LE had a "forensic" cell phone department open it up with that SW, yet the dealer had reset the memory back to factory default which wiped the memory.
JMO's and Questions
It seems to me that this approach, in the HB case, would be taking the long way, since you could simply get the cell phone records of calls made and received.
But no matter how you get them, how would they help the case? What would the existence of a phone call, on that day between two specific people in an area where they lived and otherwise roamed around, prove?
Um no. JP does NOT have the ability to give them the key, even if he wanted to, because it's not even JP's phone they are trying to get into.
JP may (or may not) have something to hide, but the fact they are trying to get access to someone else's phone isn't an indicator about him at all.
ZooSleuth
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I am unaware of any laws that force manufacturers to be able to access the data on the devices of customers for LE purposes. In light of what was happening at the NSA, I think we should look at this move by Apple as a positive thing.
MizStery
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Exclusive: Family member says Dylan Adams would not have knowingly disposed of evidence in Holly Bobo case
jacksonsun.com/story/news/special-reports/abduction-holly-bobo/2014/09/23/exclusive-family-member-says-dylan-adams-knowingly-disposed-evidence-holly-bobo-case/16128815/?sf31513313=1
An extended family member of two brothers charged in the disappearance of Holly Bobo says one of the men — Dylan Adams — is mentally challenged and has been unfairly targeted by investigators.
Moss Miller is a first cousin of the mother of Zachary and Dylan Adams.
<snipped> Long article,interesting. I found this paragraph of particular interest
"County last weekend and spoke with family members who said after the TBI found Bobo's remains this month they returned to Zachary Adams' home and cut out the floor with a chainsaw, cut out the walls, ripped out the carpet and took a mattress."
jacksonsun.com/story/news/special-reports/abduction-holly-bobo/2014/09/23/exclusive-family-member-says-dylan-adams-knowingly-disposed-evidence-holly-bobo-case/16128815/?sf31513313=1
An extended family member of two brothers charged in the disappearance of Holly Bobo says one of the men — Dylan Adams — is mentally challenged and has been unfairly targeted by investigators.
Moss Miller is a first cousin of the mother of Zachary and Dylan Adams.
<snipped> Long article,interesting. I found this paragraph of particular interest
"County last weekend and spoke with family members who said after the TBI found Bobo's remains this month they returned to Zachary Adams' home and cut out the floor with a chainsaw, cut out the walls, ripped out the carpet and took a mattress."
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