Holly Bobo, missing from TN 2014 discussion #5 ***ARRESTS***

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MrN, with all due respect...

That response is less than satisfying for several reasons.

- You could have said every bit of that weeks ago without the dance, if you had simply done so.
- If you are trying to incite discussion, you don't do it by avoiding simple questions ...
- ...and frankly, the excuses have been "the dog ate my homework" stuff.
- While discovery is critical to the legal process, it changes nothing in our conversation here, as LE is not going to tell us if discovery has been made or what it includes. Nunya, is their attitude, and they're right, so there's nothing in it for us to wait for. Indeed, it likely all took place over a month ago, passing unnoticed while you were saying you had to wait for it.

But at least you finally spit it out, and that's progress of a sort, so I extend kudos for that.
 
MrN, with all due respect...

That response is less than satisfying for several reasons.

- You could have said every bit of that weeks ago without the dance, if you had simply done so.
- If you are trying to incite discussion, you don't do it by avoiding simple questions ...
- ...and frankly, the excuses have been "the dog ate my homework" stuff.
- While discovery is critical to the legal process, it changes nothing in our conversation here, as LE is not going to tell us if discovery has been made or what it includes. Nunya, is their attitude, and they're right, so there's nothing in it for us to wait for. Indeed, it likely all took place over a month ago, passing unnoticed while you were saying you had to wait for it.

But at least you finally spit it out, and that's progress of a sort, so I extend kudos for that.

My opinions only, no facts here:

But there should be no difficulties between us, our collective goal has always been to to solve this criminal case TOGETHER by sharing evidence and theories, why do you continue to rail against the wind? If you fight the wind, then you may inherit the wind. And nothing at all will be contributed to the scientific solution of the Holly Bobo mystery. Please work with me and not against me in this important and interesting case.

Sleuth On!
 
Dog-gone-cute

1 I am not arguing that she was not kidnapped. In fact, I think it's undeniable that she was taken against her will by someone that day, and the fact that she was taken is an element that must be proved.

2 I am simply pointing out that they won't have to prove the identity of the camo man per se. As long as they can prove that at a subsequent time, she was being held by these specific defendants (ZA/JA) against her will, then they can be charged with her kidnapping.

3 The "especially aggravated kidnapping" doesn't require the identity of the camo man. It's simply a technical term to indicate that she died at some point, while still being held against her will by the defendants.

4 The blood was described as a small puddle, not a "pool." It sounds like there was some blood, but it wasn't much.

5 I don't think the small amount of blood tells much, although it does tell the story of an injury or wound at that point. But she was walking away under her own power alongside the camo man when last seen, so the injury couldn't have been severe.

6 My point about the fact that she was not killed at her home, was that we don't have any clue as to the time of death, and maybe not even the exact day. So JA or ZA couldn't possibly have an alibi regarding the time of her death.

7 In addition, if they can prove she was in the custody of ZA/JA subsequent to being grabbed, then an alibi for 8:00 wouldn't matter either.

At the end of the day, I'm coming to think that this case might revolve around a video that supposedly shows her in their custody being held against her will. And in a case with that as the focus, positively proving the identity of the camo man isn't going to matter that much.

If so, getting that video (if it exists) is everything, and a case with that as the focus would explain why they've taken the approach they have in general. If they can't get it, they might have a hard time getting a conviction on charges like these based on the contents of a perhaps-mythical video that no one admits to having had and only one person is saying even existed.

I'm not saying that's all they have that might be compelling. Who knows what they've found. Maybe a lot, maybe very little. But "volumes" of evidence doesn't tell us anything about the quality or weight of that evidence.


:seeya: Hi Steve,

Sorry I did not get back to this sooner ... I've been following the "circus" in Arizona this past week -- the Jodi Arias re-trial ... lol !

Anyway ... I do agree with some of the points above, however, I respectfully disagree with other points.

I do believe that TBI/LD has irrefutable evidence that Holly was murdered while in the custody of ZA and JA -- and possibly others who may have been there or know about it or seen that "mysterious video" ... and hopefully, that is evidence is BARD.

BUT on the other hand, I truly believe that the DA is going to have to "connect the dots" as to HOW Holly got in their custody ...

For example, IF I were on the jury, I am going to want to know HOW Holly got in ZA and JA's custody, and the DA would need to prove to me HOW she got from taken from her home by "camo man" -- IF "camo man" did anything to her -- and then HOW did Holly end up with ZA and JA.

Now even if the evidence was BARD that ZA and JA murdered Holly, I would not be satisfied without knowing WHO ELSE was involved and WHY -- even though I understand that "motive" does not have to be proven.

Additionally, I would want to know has this "camo man" been identified and charged, and IF NOT, WHY ???

Another question for me is: IF NOT for "camo man" abducting Holly, would she be alive today ? Camo man cannot go unpunished and IF he does, WHY ???

JMO but I think the DA is going to have to lay this all out for the jury as you cannot always rely on the jury to "get it" ...

All JMO and :moo:
 
Hi Steve,


BBM: Respectfully disagree that the abductor is a "curiosity item" -- WHO abducted Holly and WHY Holly was abducted are critical points which must be proven at trial.

The DA is going to have to connect the dots and in order to that, the DA has to PROVE Holly was 1st kidnapped, WHO kidnapped her, and then LINK Holly to the perps who murdered her.

ZA and JA were both charged with "especially aggravated kidnapping" along with murder, so obviously they have something with respect to these 2 perps regarding the kidnapping ...

Now, what role ZA and JA played in the kidnapping, we do not know ... so were they involved in the planning and/or the actual kidnapping ?

And IF ZA and JA were not the ACTUAL abductors, then IMO, the DA is going to have to prove WHO was the actual abductor and make connections from there.

All JMO and :moo:

I have to agree with Steve on this one particular matter, Cutie.

Based on the law it really doesn't matter who the original kidnapper may have been. By law anyone who held Holly against her will at anytime would be guilty of kidnapping even if it entails more than one suspect.

I don't think the DA will have to prove who the original kidnapper was. He will cite the law to the jury about what constitutes kidnapping showing he doesn't have to prove who the original kidnapper was but must prove the ones who are charged with kidnapping and murder... held Holly against her will, which constitutes felony aggravated kidnapping since Holly was also murdered during the time of this felony kidnapping.

While of course, we all want to know who the original kidnapper was it is not necessary for the state to prove that at trial based on the law. IMO If the jury follows the law, and I have no doubt that they will, then they will know the state is not obliged to prove who the original kidnapper was.

What they will have to prove is these two main suspects were in the middle of kidnapping Holly and were holding her against her will and during the time she was being kidnapped she was murdered.

I know I am beating a dead horse to death but there are many valid reasons why Clint's description of the original kidnapper is flawed. One main reason is he had already assumed wrongly that it was Holly's boyfriend. That assumption/false image was already formed in his mind that day as he saw the kidnapper leading Holly into the woods. Some say his description has to be correct and must be around the height and size of Drew. That theory is flawed because it was NOT who Clint assumed it to be.

Already by assuming that it was Drew he had put a false impression/description into his memory bank. He did not assume that it was Drew by seeing this man from afar. He assumed it was Drew as that made the most logic sense to him that day based on the events he saw. 1. The two were huddled together talking with each other. 2. He already knew Drew would be in camo since he knew he was turkey hunting that day. 3. Felt it was Drew since the camo man wasn't pulling Holly into the woods but leading her into the woods. He even thought the pool of blood could be from a turkey Drew had killed that day. He simply was rationalizing the events as he saw them and came to the false conclusion it had to be Drew, which we know now turned out to be false. He did not do this by the actual physical appearance but by him trying to rationalize the events he saw occurring. His wrong assumption flawed his memory of the true description of the actual suspect. Once a image is formed into our memory bank, even though the image is false it is impossible to erase it. When Clint assumed it to be Drew it immediately tainted the true description of the original kidnapper.

JMO
 
The Oct. 10th court date is for his tampering & accy' charge, not federal gun charges. At least that's what I understood the reporter who emailed me to have said in her reply to me.


:seeya: Thank You, Dr. K ! Yes, that is what it is for.

Remember the last "fiasco" when MP was supposed to be in court ? The Judge was po'd.

But IIRC, this was when there was a "changing of the guard" with the recent election and all.

Hopefully, they have gotten their act together.

:moo:
 
I have to agree with Steve on this one particular matter, Cutie.

Based on the law it really doesn't matter who the original kidnapper may have been. By law anyone who held Holly against her will at anytime would be guilty of kidnapping even if it entails more than one suspect.

I don't think the DA will have to prove who the original kidnapper was. He will cite the law to the jury about what constitutes kidnapping showing he doesn't have to prove who the original kidnapper was but must prove the ones who are charged with kidnapping and murder... held Holly against her will, which constitutes felony aggravated kidnapping since Holly was also murdered during the time of this felony kidnapping.

While of course, we all want to know who the original kidnapper was it is not necessary for the state to prove that at trial. IMO If the jury follows the law, and I have no doubt that they will, then they will know the state is not obliged to prove who the original kidnapper was.

What they will have to prove is these two main suspects were in the middle of kidnapping Holly and were holding her against her will and during the time she was being kidnapped she was murdered.

I know I am beating a dead horse to death but there are many valid reasons why Clint's description of the original kidnapper is flawed. One main reason is he had already assumed wrongly that it was Holly's boyfriend. That assumption/false image was already formed in his mind that day as he saw the kidnapper leading Holly into the woods. Some say his description has to be correct and must be around the height and size of Drew. That theory is flawed because it was NOT who Clint assumed it to be.

Already by assuming that it was Drew he had put a false impression/description into his memory bank. He did not assume that it was Drew by seeing this man from afar. He assumed it was Drew as that made the most logic sense to him that day based on the events he saw. 1. The two were huddled together talking with each other. 2. He already knew Drew would be in camo since he knew he was turkey hunting that day. 3. Felt it was Drew since the camo man wasn't pulling Holly into the woods but leading her into the woods. He even thought the pool of blood could be from a turkey Drew had killed that day. He simply was rationalizing the events as he saw them and came to the false conclusion it had to be Drew, which we know now turned out to be false. He did not do this by the actual physical appearance but by him trying to rationalize the events he saw occurring. His wrong assumption flawed his memory of the true description of the actual suspect. Once a image is formed into our memory bank, even though the image is false it is impossible to erase it. When Clint assumed it to be Drew it immediately tainted the true description of the original kidnapper.

JMO


:seeya: Hi OBE !

BBM: I totally understand, and I totally understand if that is what the law states, then the law is the law.

:) Just think how boring it would be here if we all agreed . . . LOL !

:) We agree that we disagree ... but we all are here for Holly !


Anyway, not knowing the identify of "camo man" really "bothers" me, and it bothers me much MORE than knowing IF there is a mysterious "video" that some may have seen/have in their possession.

But my question still remains :

IF not for "camo man" abducting Holly, would she be alive today ?

All JMO and :moo:
 


Associated Press
Sheriff, slain Tenn. woman's family address media

By ADRIAN SAINZ

Sep. 9, 2014 9:53 PM EDT
<snipped>
In the days following her abduction on April 13, 2011, from her home in Parsons, authorities followed cellphone signals during the hunt, Decatur County Sheriff Keith Byrd said at a news conference.

He said aircraft fitted with infrared sensors could not get a good look during flyovers because of thick tree foliage, and ground searchers didn't find evidence of Bobo's remains in the rural Decatur County area where they were eventually discovered Sunday.
<snipped>

Link
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/police-remains-are-those-missing-tenn-woman


The following story is from Aug 1,2011. Longtime posters will remember the lengthy discussion about this article( & our hopes they would find important clues. MOO

Paragliders join search for Holly Bobo


Posted: Aug 01, 2011 11:43 AM PDTUpdated: Mar 07, 2014 3:56 PM PST
JOHNSON CITY, Tenn. (AP) -A group of paragliders has joined in the search effort to find clues in the case of a 20-year-old nursing student who is believed to have been abducted from her West Tennessee home in April.
Dave Dubin, founder of Parasearchers.com, said a team of about five pilots searched on Sunday and again on Monday morning around the home of Holly Bobo near Parsons, Tenn., about 100 miles northeast of Memphis.
Dubin told WJHL-TV in Johnson City that through power paragliding they can get clear aerial views of the woods where Bobo was last seen. Bobo vanished April 13 after her brother said he saw her being led into woods by a man dressed in hunting camouflage.
wsmv.com/story/15187375/paragliders-join-search-for-missing-tenn-woman
 
:seeya: Hi OBE !

BBM: I totally understand, and I totally understand if that is what the law states, then the law is the law.

:) Just think how boring it would be here if we all agreed . . . LOL !

:) We agree that we disagree ... but we all are here for Holly !


Anyway, not knowing the identify of "camo man" really "bothers" me, and it bothers me much MORE than knowing IF there is a mysterious "video" that some may have seen/have in their possession.

But my question still remains :

IF not for "camo man" abducting Holly, would she be alive today ?

All JMO and :moo:

You are absolutely right Cutie! In the end we are all on the same page and want justice for Holly and that will remain unchanged.

I think we already know the answer to your question though.

If camo man had not kidnapped Holly and took her to another location to be brutalized and then subsequently murdered she would be an alive vibrant young lady today.:(

IMO
 
I have no clue what we are arguing over. LOL, for real. Who the heck cares about a post 2 weeks ago. I have been posting concerning Holly's case for 3 1/2 years and almost got put in "time out" (more than once) since I was insistent on hashing out the details surrounding the eye witness report (and also delving into what may have been going on in the family, which was a huge no-no...but dang, we had so little to sleuth). I have posted so many contrary things that an interested outsider would swear I have more personalities than Sybil. That's what happens when the wheels of your brain are spinning and your heart cares a lot.

As far as Clint's description of Camo Man goes, he could have been off some. Heaven knows, this has been discussed to death. I have done the very same thing he may have done = glanced at someone and later swore up and down it was so-and-so, when in fact, it was not. The mind is a powerful tool. And also easily fooled.

How many people were in on this before it started? That's the stuff I want to know. And I don't believe for a minute Holly was abducted simply because she was beautiful. Yes, she was beautiful. But this scheme seems to have been well devised and flawlessly (can you say "more or less" and use the word "flawlessly" or is that Sybil-like?) carried out and I don't think raping someone beautiful was the primary motivation. This story is just so big and so complex and has been from the start. I am beginning to wonder if we will ever know the whole truth. I pray we will. But as it stands now, we don't even have the entire cast of characters behind bars yet. What the heck is taking so long?
 
Anyway, not knowing the identify of "camo man" really "bothers" me, and it bothers me much MORE than knowing IF there is a mysterious "video" that some may have seen/have in their possession.

But my question still remains :

IF not for "camo man" abducting Holly, would she be alive today ?

Don't get me wrong. I want camo man - if he is truly not ZA or JA - found, brought to justice, and convicted of what happened to HB.

But my point has been that an inability to prove if camo man was (a) ZA, (b) JA, or (c) a 3rd party named ____ is not going to keep them from convicting people for the crimes, including kidnapping, if they have proof of her being held by them at some point subsequent to when she was abducted.
 
I remain convinced that ZA is the man in camo, despite the obvious differences in guesstimated height weight of that perp and ZA
 
I have no clue what we are arguing over. LOL, for real. Who the heck cares about a post 2 weeks ago. I have been posting concerning Holly's case for 3 1/2 years and almost got put in "time out" (more than once) since I was insistent on hashing out the details surrounding the eye witness report (and also delving into what may have been going on in the family, which was a huge no-no...but dang, we had so little to sleuth). I have posted so many contrary things that an interested outsider would swear I have more personalities than Sybil. That's what happens when the wheels of your brain are spinning and your heart cares a lot.

As far as Clint's description of Camo Man goes, he could have been off some. Heaven knows, this has been discussed to death. I have done the very same thing he may have done = glanced at someone and later swore up and down it was so-and-so, when in fact, it was not. The mind is a powerful tool. And also easily fooled.

How many people were in on this before it started? That's the stuff I want to know. And I don't believe for a minute Holly was abducted simply because she was beautiful. Yes, she was beautiful. But this scheme seems to have been well devised and flawlessly (can you say "more or less" and use the word "flawlessly" or is that Sybil-like?) carried out and I don't think raping someone beautiful was the primary motivation. This story is just so big and so complex and has been from the start. I am beginning to wonder if we will ever know the whole truth. I pray we will. But as it stands now, we don't even have the entire cast of characters behind bars yet. What the heck is taking so long?

And I certainly respect your opinion and always will just like I do all others who have expressed their opinion.

However; personally, I don't see this as a mastermind kidnapping plot or even a well thought out plan. It really doesn't take much planning to nab an unsuspecting vulnerable female. We have seen other cases just like Holly's where the kidnapper was able to kidnap the victim in broad daylight. The only thing different in this case than most is this kidnapper didn't know Clint was home and saw him. Most kidnappings like this have no eye witnesses and no one notices or hears a thing.

I continue to believe the primary motive was for meth heads to kidnap a beautiful young woman so they could do whatever they wanted to her before they finally murdered her.

I just don't see any other valid motive. Even 'over there' the supposed insiders all talked about how Holly was viscously beaten and raped repeatedly. So imo, that is why they took Holly. They selected Holly not only for her beauty but because she was so different than any other female they had ever had. Holly was wholesome, goal oriented and cared deeply about people. Often thugs like to destroy goodness and replace it with their own evilness.

The only difference in this case from many others is it was a pack of predators instead of one lone wolf although right now only two have been arrested for the actual kidnapping and murder of Holly. That may hold and only two will be involved in these acts while others may have had lessor roles and didn't actually participate in the kidnapping and murder.

Cases aren't nearly as complex as they are made out to be. In the end we see that time and time again when so many trials come forward. I guess it is human nature to make a case into some grand scheme and complex. I do see that quite a lot in other cases as well and see many posts stating 'there has to be more to the story' before the case is tried but when the trial is held it was pretty straight forward and not complex at all. I am sure it does make it more titillating for some and I fault no one for thinking that or any other way for that matter.

Holly was certainly not taken for ransom. The Bobos would have moved heaven and earth to meet their demands and if any demands were made then the Bobos would have immediately known who had Holly. They would have had the local LE and the TBI at Adams' door in a nano second if they had any inkling of who took Holly.

And it certainly wasn't for sex trafficking. Traffickers do this for the money and don't damage the goods that makes them that money. Plus she never left Adams home imo. Whoever was the original kidnapper took her to Adams home and then the brutalization/torture and torment began and only ended when they murdered her there, imo.

So in the end of course we will see what the DA thinks the true motive was but everything we have heard about (Including the mysterious video) is all sexual in nature.

And it certainly wasn't for revenge,imo. There hasn't been one piece of information that anyone in the Bobo family ever even associated with these . NONE. If it was done to send a message the only way the message could be sent if the kidnappers and killers told the Bobos who they were. Without that there is no message and we all know the Bobos have searched for Holly everywhere for years so there was no message sent obviously.

It is hard to comprehend that a pack of sub-humans could gang up on one small defenseless female but gang rape has happened before to victims. The difference here the sexual motives were being driven by rabid violent sadistic meth heads with heightened libidos. Thus far only two of the meth heads seem to be involved in the actual kidnapping and murder. So I guess I cant even say they are a pack because usually a pack is more than two.

Taking Holly to be sexually abused doesn't really shock me when it come to this particular group. For years they have done what they wanted to do and made many victims over the years without any or very little accountability. After awhile brutes like this begin to believe they are 10 feet tall and bullet proof and begin to believe that no matter what they do they will go unpunished for it. They remind me somewhat of Jessie Matthew who had created terror, rape, and murder for years yet got away with it. His crimes became bolder and more twisted just like the A-Train crimes.

TN has unfortunately already seen how meth heads act when they resort to murder. Before they murder they take delight in torturing and brutalizing their victims for days on end. I will always believe that is why TBI Director Gynn mentioned the other heinous meth head case back years ago when talking about Holly's case. The heinousness of both crimes have chilling similarities when it comes to the depth of the brutalization that is inflicted on victims where the perpetrators are meth addicts. Both ZA and JA are full blown narcissistic sociopaths in action.

They took Holly because they knew they could. They took her because they fed off of depravity and relished in the sadistic manner in which they did it. They gloated that they were in full control over someone else's destiny.

Anyone of us could wind up in Holly's situation. When she came out alone.. as the kidnapper knew she would... she was an easy target. So many females have been kidnapped when they were alone and the kidnapper did think she was alone. Over and over again right in broad daylight they kidnap these young women and the women are later found murdered or are never found at all ever again.

Holly lived in a remote rural area making her kidnapping even more of an easy opportunity. Other women have been kidnapped right off a busy street in broad daylight. So if that is obtainable for other kidnappers then of course with Holly being in a rural area it made the opportunity even easier. I see nothing complicated about the original kidnapping. And none of these kidnapper/rapists have to be an Einstein. They are opportunist and seize their victim when they are always alone.

Kidnappers control by fear and intimidation and Holly's kidnapper was no different than the others.. All he had to do is get Holly under control by injuring her or even threatening to kill her if she wasn't compliant. We have discussed for many years why it seems a lot of victims in this same situation went with the abductor instead of screaming and kicking and trying to get away but time and time again we see where the kidnapper is able to easily kidnap his prey.

To know the frozen fear Holly went through the day she was kidnapped could only be known if we went through such an trying ordeal ourselves and I pray that none of us ever has to be in Holly's shoes or the many other female victims who have lost their lives once they were abducted by their predator.

In the end, IMO, this case will not be complex nor will the motive be complex. This is what can happen when a gang of meth addicts decides to kidnap a young sweet woman so they could do anything at all they wanted to do to her for as long as they liked until they became bored and finally murdered the victim.

JMO though
 
Don't get me wrong. I want camo man - if he is truly not ZA or JA - found, brought to justice, and convicted of what happened to HB.

But my point has been that an inability to prove if camo man was (a) ZA, (b) JA, or (c) a 3rd party named ____ is not going to keep them from convicting people for the crimes, including kidnapping, if they have proof of her being held by them at some point subsequent to when she was abducted.

My opinions only, no facts here:

Although, I have made several posts about the seeming difference in height/weight between the main suspect and the man described by Holly's brother, I acknowledge that if any one of the currently-charged suspects is the kidnapper, it would likely be the main suspect. Although, I wish that he was not 6' 2" to 6' 3"; this is taller than I would prefer.

What bugs me most, is motive. The main suspect lived an insular lifestyle (boasting and bragging, acting tough, drugs, fights with family, girfriends and cops). My expectation would be that he would have continued this behavior and his lifetime rap sheet would read like a broken record. But to strike out and commit kidnapping and capital murder of someone way outside of his circle must have required something more than a perceived slight at some public event or envy from afar. If the main suspect is the kidnapper, the only motive that makes sense to me would be revenge for something significant that we are not yet privy to.

Any thoughts about this?

Sleuth On!
 
If the main suspect is the kidnapper, the only motive that makes sense to me would be revenge for something significant that we are not yet privy to.

Any thoughts about this?

Yes, and perhaps thoughts that are too many and too involved to follow. But I'll try to clarify.

As a preface, to be clear, imo we're not looking for the motives of camo man, but rather what could have motivated this event. So I'm trying to ascertain the general motives of the one(s) behind this case, and I see the kidnapper(s) as being (allegedly) ZA/JA, whether or not they were in HB's garage.

In general, on this topic of motive, my thinking is more complex than a simple answer.

ONE - Background

As a backdrop, my thinking on motive is impacted by the following ...

1 Criminology studies support the operating theory offered by oceanblueeyes that we naturally tend to suppose a motive that's more substantial, sinister, or complex than reality.
...People really do kill on a whim, or do acts of incredible evil, just because they feel like it. But we want to look for more, because it doesn't seem to make sense that a person we value could die without the perp having some strong reason. So we are inclined to abandon the senseless (truth) and pursue "more" when there isn't more.
2 We heard this truth preached repeatedly by LE in the wake of the JFK assassination, telling us that the lingering ideas of conspiracy in that case came because we yearned for a "bigger purpose" to explain such a killing beyond a single nutjob who got a gun and committed evil.
3 However, I also learned from that back-and-forth that even though we may irrationally yearn for a more complex or sinister explanation and seek it too readily, it's a mistake to dismiss the possibility without looking to see what we see, and following it.
4 And at the end of the day, motive isn't about "tendencies" but rather is about reading the singular mind of the perp(s) who did this. 999 of 1000 murderers could think one way, yet that doesn't preclude this guy from being the 1 who doesn't, and we have to keep that in mind.
...Of course, that makes motive an almost impossible task, because unless they choose to tell us, who can know what REALLY went through the mind of another?

TWO - Application to the possible motives in this case

With all that as the backdrop, here's how I generally see this case and motive:

1 I accept the very real possibility that this was nothing more than a grab, violate, and kill event as outlined by ocean.
2 I also don't think this crime necessarily was planned in great detail. Could it have been? Sure. But the "plan" could have been little more than the idea of going to her house, waiting until everyone left, forcing her to come with them, and driving away using the backroads of Decatur County that these perps knew intimately and had driven all their life.
3 A conviction doesn't require a proof of any specific motive, so we may never know what went through the minds of the perp(s) that made them do this even if we know who did it.
4 When you say the motive only makes sense as revenge for something significant, I don't buy that at all. Could it have been? Sure. But I think that the need to suppose there MUST be something significant at the root is an illustration of the erroneous thinking criminologists see at play when acts like these occur.
5 I do believe we MIGHT have been provided one vague hint as to motive. But it's evidence that may or may not truly pertain to this case, so it's certainly nothing to bank on.

THREE - The one vague hint?

1 The one vague hint ("1VH") is of a nature that it can infer all kinds of various scenarios that could have been behind this deed.
2 1VH doesn't allow us to focus on any one motive, however.
...Taken in one way, it could support ocean's view that this was a sex-power crime.
...Taken from a different angle, it could support revenge.
...Or, it could support pettiness, psychopathic actions, or narcissism as motives.
...And there are probably even more motives made possible by 1VH.
3 1VH potentially opens the door to all kinds of complex motives and possibly a much more complex case.
4 Absent information from the perp(s) themselves, there's nothing besides our own imaginations to rank one possibility arising from 1VH over the other.
...And, in fact, this "hint" may not have had anything to do with this case at all, so there's that.
5 Because the inferences we can draw from 1VH are so impossible to evaluate, 1VH really doesn't help us narrow the possibilities as to motive, and in fact it actually broadens them.

As a result, I see the potential here for just about any motive one wants to imagine. Ocean (it was about sex and power) may be right. You (revenge) may be right. Or it could be any one of a million other motivations, or maybe almost none at all (because evil is evil).
 
Hi Tugela,

1st BBM: Whether it was just a "few spots of blood" or more than a few spots of blood: the bottom line IMO is that Holly was injured at her home.


2nd BBM: I totally disagree ... "abducting" and "kidnapping" a person is felony, and IMO it is a critical point in Holly's case as to WHY she was abducted and WHO abducted her ...

Also, who knows what the abductor / "camo man" did to Holly BEFORE ZA and JA were involved, and there needs to be total justice for Holly !

JMO but I don't think JA was "camo man" -- but ZA -- maybe ?

All JMO and :moo:

It might be critical for you, but it is not critical for the law. They are not required to show why something happened, or exactly how it happened, only that it did happen. In this particular instance, to sustain an abduction charge all they would need is evidence that the accused was holding the victim against their will. How they came to get hold of the victim, who all else might be involved and what became of the victim is irrelevant for the charge to stick.

LE know perfectly well that their suspects don't match the description of the person HB left with. But that doesn't matter. Their charge is based on the account of another witness who saw her in the presence of the accused after she disappeared, apparently being held against her will. That is all they need to make the abduction charge, but for the charge to stick the witness claiming this has to be credible, and if he isn't then they need to have corroboration.

And apparently he is not, and that is why they are engaged in this desperate clutching of straws to try to find some other evidence to corroborate the witness, or at least "convince" him to make an account that can be corroborated in some way.
 
Yes, and perhaps thoughts that are too many and too involved to follow. But I'll try to clarify.



As a result, I see the potential here for just about any motive one wants to imagine. Ocean (it was about sex and power) may be right. You (revenge) may be right. Or it could be any one of a million other motivations, or maybe almost none at all (because evil is evil).


Snipped for brevity and bbm

I don't often post on Holly's forum, but I follow the case and read the comments daily. To be truthful, I often don't agree with your posts. That is the way of WS, a meeting place on the internet where people of different ideas can debate. That being said, I think this post of yours is a direct hit in many ways. I think the majority of posters on WS are quite intellectual. Therefore, many of us may tend to overthink issues. This case is baffling as to the multiple suspects and peripheral issues involved. It will be even more so if/when other POIs are charged. Your above comment, "evil is evil," sums up this crime for me. Evil doesn't need a motive. I closely followed the Lauren Giddings case in Macon, GA, for several years. That case showed that evil does just because it can. Throw evil into a group of local bullies (the suspects) who seem to be expecting light treatment by LE and there is the recipe for the crimes committed against Holly. I don't think we will ever learn what the motive was for these crimes. The doer(s) could have just gotten up one morning and decided abducting, assaulting, and killing Holly was the thing to do. If it was well thought out in advance then the suspects are stone cold killers because they knew they would end up killing her because she could ID them for the abduction and other things.
 
Yes, and perhaps thoughts that are too many and too involved to follow. But I'll try to clarify.

As a preface, to be clear, imo we're not looking for the motives of camo man, but rather what could have motivated this event. So I'm trying to ascertain the general motives of the one(s) behind this case, and I see the kidnapper(s) as being (allegedly) ZA/JA, whether or not they were in HB's garage.

In general, on this topic of motive, my thinking is more complex than a simple answer.

ONE - Background

As a backdrop, my thinking on motive is impacted by the following ...

1 Criminology studies support the operating theory offered by oceanblueeyes that we naturally tend to suppose a motive that's more substantial, sinister, or complex than reality.
...People really do kill on a whim, or do acts of incredible evil, just because they feel like it. But we want to look for more, because it doesn't seem to make sense that a person we value could die without the perp having some strong reason. So we are inclined to abandon the senseless (truth) and pursue "more" when there isn't more.
2 We heard this truth preached repeatedly by LE in the wake of the JFK assassination, telling us that the lingering ideas of conspiracy in that case came because we yearned for a "bigger purpose" to explain such a killing beyond a single nutjob who got a gun and committed evil.
3 However, I also learned from that back-and-forth that even though we may irrationally yearn for a more complex or sinister explanation and seek it too readily, it's a mistake to dismiss the possibility without looking to see what we see, and following it.
4 And at the end of the day, motive isn't about "tendencies" but rather is about reading the singular mind of the perp(s) who did this. 999 of 1000 murderers could think one way, yet that doesn't preclude this guy from being the 1 who doesn't, and we have to keep that in mind.
...Of course, that makes motive an almost impossible task, because unless they choose to tell us, who can know what REALLY went through the mind of another?

TWO - Application to the possible motives in this case

With all that as the backdrop, here's how I generally see this case and motive:

1 I accept the very real possibility that this was nothing more than a grab, violate, and kill event as outlined by ocean.
2 I also don't think this crime necessarily was planned in great detail. Could it have been? Sure. But the "plan" could have been little more than the idea of going to her house, waiting until everyone left, forcing her to come with them, and driving away using the backroads of Decatur County that these perps knew intimately and had driven all their life.
3 A conviction doesn't require a proof of any specific motive, so we may never know what went through the minds of the perp(s) that made them do this even if we know who did it.
4 When you say the motive only makes sense as revenge for something significant, I don't buy that at all. Could it have been? Sure. But I think that the need to suppose there MUST be something significant at the root is an illustration of the erroneous thinking criminologists see at play when acts like these occur.
5 I do believe we MIGHT have been provided one vague hint as to motive. But it's evidence that may or may not truly pertain to this case, so it's certainly nothing to bank on.

THREE - The one vague hint?

1 The one vague hint ("1VH") is of a nature that it can infer all kinds of various scenarios that could have been behind this deed.
2 1VH doesn't allow us to focus on any one motive, however.
...Taken in one way, it could support ocean's view that this was a sex-power crime.
...Taken from a different angle, it could support revenge.
...Or, it could support pettiness, psychopathic actions, or narcissism as motives.
...And there are probably even more motives made possible by 1VH.
3 1VH potentially opens the door to all kinds of complex motives and possibly a much more complex case.
4 Absent information from the perp(s) themselves, there's nothing besides our own imaginations to rank one possibility arising from 1VH over the other.
...And, in fact, this "hint" may not have had anything to do with this case at all, so there's that.
5 Because the inferences we can draw from 1VH are so impossible to evaluate, 1VH really doesn't help us narrow the possibilities as to motive, and in fact it actually broadens them.

As a result, I see the potential here for just about any motive one wants to imagine. Ocean (it was about sex and power) may be right. You (revenge) may be right. Or it could be any one of a million other motivations, or maybe almost none at all (because evil is evil).

My opinions only, no facts here:

Your post is well-stated and makes perfect sense to me.

Humans are associative thinkers by design. We automatically attempt to create linkages between events or apply special significance or purpose to events or objects. This is risky of course, because if a black cat crosses my path and a block down the street I slip on a banana peel, I could (by associative thinking) decide that a black cat is bad luck (even though there really is no scientific cause-and-effect between the two events).

Sleuth On!
 
My opinions only, no facts here:

I will post PART III of my ongoing series soon. Just so this future post does not hit anybody here "out of the blue" I want to give a partial Preface and hear your responses.

There are several conundrums in the Holly Bobo case (as described in my timeline). I am still somewhat baffled that the kidnapper did not simply remove and hide Holly's "lunch bag", purse, cell phone, etc. at the crime scene (under her car or in the directly adjacent woods). In past posts I have opined that the kidnapper allowed Holly to take these items with her so that he could plant them later. I am beginning to wonder if that was not the initial motive (even if the kidnapper did decide later-on to plant evidence, which I think he did).

Remember the story is that the kidnapper spent 10 to 15 minutes with Holly before taking her away. The timing of the scream heard by the neighbor and Holly's brother's own testimony have necessitated this time span. When a kidnapper spends ten to fifteen minutes arguing and/or pleading with the victim before abducting them, something is revealed- this is not your typical snatch-and-grab abduction, where the kidnapper and the victim do not know each other. Also, 10 to 15 minutes represents enough time for the kidnapper to decide what he intends to do and how to do it. In 10 to 15 minutes, even the Three Stooges would decide to remove and conceal any extraneous evidence at or near the crime scene, so this evidence could not be traced to their ultimate destination.

Cutting to the quick, what if the kidnapper allowed Holly to take her loose personal items with her because he wanted to "perpetuate in his own troubled mind" that the abduction was not a forceful action? In this manner, the kidnapper preserves Holly as someone still dressed up to go to school with all of her daily accoutrements, in the false hope that everything will be normal once he spends a little more time with her. The kidnapper believes that once Holly realizes "how great" he still is, she still has all of her normal daily belongings with her and complete normalcy is preserved.

In my reformed opinion, the kidnapper knew Holly better than a stranger and better than a distant relative living across town. Some former association of greater importance is implied by my hypothesis.

OK, let us duke it out here about this subject! But I must warn you that I am a former boxer. I had a legendary left hook. Well, at my age the left hook has become so slow and weak that it might be defeated by a butterfly. But as Richard Nixon would say- "I am NOT a punch-drunk ex-boxer" (or a crook!).

Sleuth On!
 
My opinions only, no facts here:

I will post PART III of my ongoing series soon. Just so this future post does not hit anybody here "out of the blue" I want to give a partial Preface and hear your responses.

There are several conundrums in the Holly Bobo case (as described in my timeline). I am still somewhat baffled that the kidnapper did not simply remove and hide Holly's "lunch bag", purse, cell phone, etc. at the crime scene (under her car or in the directly adjacent woods). In past posts I have opined that the kidnapper allowed Holly to take these items with her so that he could plant them later. I am beginning to wonder if that was not the initial motive (even if the kidnapper did decide later-on to plant evidence, which I think he did).

Remember the story is that the kidnapper spent 10 to 15 minutes with Holly before taking her away. The timing of the scream heard by the neighbor and Holly's brother's own testimony have necessitated this time span. When a kidnapper spends ten to fifteen minutes arguing and/or pleading with the victim before abducting them, something is revealed- this is not your typical snatch-and-grab abduction, where the kidnapper and the victim do not know each other. Also, 10 to 15 minutes represents enough time for the kidnapper to decide what he intends to do and how to do it. In 10 to 15 minutes, even the Three Stooges would decide to remove and conceal any extraneous evidence at or near the crime scene, so this evidence could not be traced to their ultimate destination.

Cutting to the quick, what if the kidnapper allowed Holly to take her loose personal items with her because he wanted to "perpetuate in his own troubled mind" that the abduction was not a forceful action? In this manner, the kidnapper preserves Holly as someone still dressed up to go to school with all of her daily accoutrements, in the false hope that everything will be normal once he spends a little more time with her. The kidnapper believes that once Holly realizes "how great" he still is, she still has all of her normal daily belongings with her and complete normalcy is preserved.

In my reformed opinion, the kidnapper knew Holly better than a stranger and better than a distant relative living across town. Some former association of greater importance is implied by my hypothesis.

OK, let us duke it out here about this subject! But I must warn you that I am a former boxer. I had a legendary left hook. Well, at my age the left hook has become so slow and weak that it might be defeated by a butterfly. But as Richard Nixon would say- "I am NOT a punch-drunk ex-boxer" (or a crook!).

Sleuth On!

How do we know the items were 'planted?'

I really see this no different than other cases where items of the victim were found later on elsewhere scattered about but not at the abduction scene.

In Sierra Lamar's case for one example, among many, there was nothing of Sierra's left close to the abduction site. However; a mile away her cell phone was found and even further away her backpack and clothing was found stuffed inside. Were these items planted? Not in my opinion. They were simply discarded by the perpetrator at some point and time because he did not want to be caught with them in his possesssion.

Just because none of Holly's personal possessions were left behind at her home doesn't mean there she had familiarity with her abductor.

He may have simply made sure she dropped none of her items because if seen it would immediately draw attention that something unexpected had happened to Holly. Since the perp did not know Clint was home that day I have always felt the kidnapper wanted others to assume that Holly had ridden to school with someone else that morning.

I am sure he wanted to get her away from her home without her kicking and screaming which would draw attention that a kidnapping was taking place.

I just don't see any evidence that shows Holly knew her kidnapper.

I have always felt the 'No, why?" heard by Clint from Holly was actually two statements. "No' protesting being taken and the "Why?' was said when she did not understand why the kidnapper was doing this to her.

I don't think Holly had any familiarity with any of the involved perps. She lived a very different life than any of them. She may have known them by sight since they were notoriously known in the community for their criminal activities but she would have never gone anywhere willingly with any of them. That is why the kidnapper had to draw blood. He was having to force Holly to go with him.

IMO
 
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