Holly Bobo, missing from TN 2014 discussion #5 ***ARRESTS***

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1st BBM: Ah, the alibis ... interesting ...

First, these so-called alibis have to be proven when Holly was abducted -- which they have proof of the approximate time of abduction due to the 9-1-1 calls, the neighbor who heard the "scream," CB's witnessing the abduction, etc.

BUT -- WHO is going to say they had an "alibi" at the time Holly was murdered ?

None of them, IMO, because that would be like an admission ... KWIM ?


2nd BBM: JMO but I do not believe any of the A's are "innocent" -- and -- I do believe the P brothers had knowledge AFTER the fact ...

What I am waiting to see is WHO ELSE was involved and WHO ELSE had knowledge BEFORE or AFTER Holly's abduction and murder ?

All JMO and :moo:

Assuming of course that the scream was from Holly of course, and assuming that the scream was related to her disappearance. If she knew the person it is quite possible that she left voluntarily as well, and something happened later that resulted in her death.

As far as alibis are concerned, they don't have to be proven, they have to be disproven or impeached. The burden for that is on the prosecution.

The defense would present evidence that the accused was somewhere else at the time, and that would be accepted as fact, unless the prosecution can prove that the evidence is not true. The defense does not need to prove it is true, they just have to enter it into evidence.
 
Hi Steve,

BBM: We know she was not killed at her home because cadaver dogs were brought in ...

BUT -- Holly was injured at her home ... There was a "pool of blood" found in the carport/yard area, and this was verified [sorry, do not have the link handy].

Now, how much blood and/or any other evidence of an injury we do not know.

Holly's abduction led to her murder ... And while the kidnapping may not "legally" carry the same "weight" as the murder charges, the abduction is crucial in that Holly did not survive ... she was murdered as a result of the abduction.

All JMO and :moo:

It is more likely a few spots of blood. A pool would imply a serious injury and that the person was on the ground for a significant period of time. A significant injury standing up would have blood sprayed around, not in one place.

Incidentally, a death that happens as a result of an abduction is automatically 1st degree murder in most places, so charging a suspect with kidnapping in a homicide case is a sneaky way of making the charge when you know the victim is dead but can't prove how or why or who did it. You may however be able to show that they abducted the victim, and at that point how she came to be dead is irrelevant. Also, they don't need to show how or who abducted her either, just being held against her will after the report to the police would suffice. Since they have the brother saying that she was seen in the accused company and was being held by them against her will, that's all the evidence LE would need to make the charge, and I suspect that is all the evidence they have. How that will play out in court is a different matter, since the accusers have every reason to make the story up. LE knows this of course, and IMO that is why they are doing all these Hail Mary moves in apparently desperate efforts to get corroboration.
 
My opinions only, no facts here:

Any Spongebob fan knows that "The Camping Episode" is one of the best shows of that series. In this show, the myth of a dangerous 'Sea Bear' is the topic. However, it turns out in this show, that Sea Bears actually exist! Myths work in two ways, either they never will happen OR by some curious circumstance or personal motivation the myth creates its own reality.

What do all myths have in common? They represent an irresistible singular idea/concept or an irresistible chain of events. True myths (talk about contradictory word association!) are always second-hand, i.e. hearsay.

I made a post on Websleuths on April 15, 2014 (Holly Bobo, missing from Tenn, *ARREST*, 2014 general discussion #2, post 773) where I stated in part:
_________________________________

"If the authorities possessed unequivocal DNA evidence, they would have successfully used this evidence to coerce the suspect for a full confession or plea agreement by now. If the authorities had any equally powerful combination of damning physical evidence (Holly's purse, videos of the crime, etc.), they would not be resorting to he-said, she-said tactics (interrogation of the suspect's jailed brother, the aggravated assault charge arrest that occurred 3 WEEKS after the actual incident, and of course the 'jailhouse confession' by the suspect (threatening his brother) that led to the FBI filing additional charges."
__________________________________

Note that I referred to "videos of the crime" in this April 15 post. Fast forward to May 29, 2014 (about 1.5 months later) and the first of the two "cell-phone video" brothers is arrested. My earlier post was an irresistible Sea Bear moment- the possibility of video evidence of the actual crime. Then it became reality!?! Anyway, I said it first, only because it was an irresistible idea.

Do not forget that there is a large reward in the Holly Bobo case and that many may wish to take a shot at the money. This aspect of the case is rarely mentioned on this thread, except by me.

Sleuth On!
 
"If the authorities possessed unequivocal DNA evidence, they would have successfully used this evidence to coerce the suspect for a full confession or plea agreement by now."

I don't believe that for even a nano-second. Perry Mason moments, where the suspect says, "Oh wow, you figured it out, okay I confess" are popular on TV dramas that get wrapped up in an hour, but real life plays out very differently.

What's going to motivate LE to offer a plea deal, if their evidence is so rock-solid that they think they can hang him? And why would he confess if nothing to be gained?

Besides, as the OJ Simpson case showed, having DNA evidence isn't a guarantee of a conviction. If these perps are smart (and that seems to be the case), they know that juries have their own mind and prosecutors can bungle any trial.

One more reason to think that the lack of a plea agreement so far means nothing whatsoever - the defendants didn't even get all of the evidence (including good, bad, and exculpatory) in the entirety until a few weeks ago. Why would they ever even consider a plea without first learning what LE has found?
 
Assuming of course that the scream was from Holly of course, and assuming that the scream was related to her disappearance. If she knew the person it is quite possible that she left voluntarily as well, and something happened later that resulted in her death.

As far as alibis are concerned, they don't have to be proven, they have to be disproven or impeached. The burden for that is on the prosecution.

The defense would present evidence that the accused was somewhere else at the time, and that would be accepted as fact, unless the prosecution can prove that the evidence is not true. The defense does not need to prove it is true, they just have to enter it into evidence.


Hi Tugela,

BBM: Of course, the "scream" was from Holly -- it wasn't KB or DB because they were at work, and for certain it was NOT Clint. That only leaves Holly.

JMO but I do not believe she left "voluntarily" ... no doubt, "camo man" had a weapon aimed at her and she probably felt she had no choice.

All JMO and :moo:
 
My opinions only, no facts here:

Any Spongebob fan knows that "The Camping Episode" is one of the best shows of that series. In this show, the myth of a dangerous 'Sea Bear' is the topic. However, it turns out in this show, that Sea Bears actually exist! Myths work in two ways, either they never will happen OR by some curious circumstance or personal motivation the myth creates its own reality.

What do all myths have in common? They represent an irresistible singular idea/concept or an irresistible chain of events. True myths (talk about contradictory word association!) are always second-hand, i.e. hearsay.

I made a post on Websleuths on April 15, 2014 (Holly Bobo, missing from Tenn, *ARREST*, 2014 general discussion #2, post 773) where I stated in part:
_________________________________

"If the authorities possessed unequivocal DNA evidence, they would have successfully used this evidence to coerce the suspect for a full confession or plea agreement by now. If the authorities had any equally powerful combination of damning physical evidence (Holly's purse, videos of the crime, etc.), they would not be resorting to he-said, she-said tactics (interrogation of the suspect's jailed brother, the aggravated assault charge arrest that occurred 3 WEEKS after the actual incident, and of course the 'jailhouse confession' by the suspect (threatening his brother) that led to the FBI filing additional charges."
__________________________________

Note that I referred to "videos of the crime" in this April 15 post. Fast forward to May 29, 2014 (about 1.5 months later) and the first of the two "cell-phone video" brothers is arrested. My earlier post was an irresistible Sea Bear moment- the possibility of video evidence of the actual crime. Then it became reality!?! Anyway, I said it first, only because it was an irresistible idea.

Do not forget that there is a large reward in the Holly Bobo case and that many may wish to take a shot at the money. This aspect of the case is rarely mentioned on this thread, except by me.

Sleuth On!


:seeya: Hi Mr. N,

:hilarious: Well, off to watch that SpongeBob episode ... LOL !

But on serious note, I see your point ...
 
I wrote WKRN-TV - Nashville (abc) & a very nice producer emailed me back this morning in regards to MP's court appearance. They told me MP's court case was rescheduled until sometime in Oct. & will get back to me with a date.

Also, they said WKRN news is invested in Holly's case and to email anytime. That doesn't happen with every MSM outlet. I'll post when they reply.
 
That might be true if it was someone he didn't know well, but in the case of someone he DOES know well, that sort of error is unlikely.

Usually when people talk about the unreliability of eye witness with regards to appearances, it is a situation involving a complete stranger, or something that happens very dramatically and quickly. Neither of those apply in this case.

When it comes to recognition of people you know, the human brain is very accurate, so whoever this person was would have to look pretty much like the boyfriend from behind, so much so that it would fool the brother.

Even someone you know well, if from the rear, at a distance and wearing bulky clothing would be very susceptible to an error of presumption. If you expect to see your sister's boyfriend in camo with your sister and you then see a man in camo with your sister, your brain will jump to conclude that man is the boyfriend barring proof otherwise. With distance being a factor and no face being seen because of walking away, it really wouldn't have to look much like the boyfriend at all. If the person was wearing a hood or hat, there would be almost nothing of the person actually seen- all clothing.
 
I wrote WKRN-TV - Nashville (abc) & a very nice producer emailed me back this morning in regards to MP's court appearance. They told me MP's court case was rescheduled until sometime in Oct. & will get back to me with a date.

Also, they said WKRN news is invested in Holly's case and to email anytime. That doesn't happen with every MSM outlet. I'll post when they reply.


:seeya: Thank You, Dr. Know !
 
I wrote WKRN-TV - Nashville (abc) & a very nice producer emailed me back this morning in regards to MP's court appearance. They told me MP's court case was rescheduled until sometime in Oct. & will get back to me with a date.

Also, they said WKRN news is invested in Holly's case and to email anytime. That doesn't happen with every MSM outlet. I'll post when they reply.

Wow! Great to hear!
 
It is more likely a few spots of blood. A pool would imply a serious injury and that the person was on the ground for a significant period of time. A significant injury standing up would have blood sprayed around, not in one place.

Incidentally, a death that happens as a result of an abduction is automatically 1st degree murder in most places, so charging a suspect with kidnapping in a homicide case is a sneaky way of making the charge when you know the victim is dead but can't prove how or why or who did it. You may however be able to show that they abducted the victim, and at that point how she came to be dead is irrelevant. Also, they don't need to show how or who abducted her either, just being held against her will after the report to the police would suffice. Since they have the brother saying that she was seen in the accused company and was being held by them against her will, that's all the evidence LE would need to make the charge, and I suspect that is all the evidence they have. How that will play out in court is a different matter, since the accusers have every reason to make the story up. LE knows this of course, and IMO that is why they are doing all these Hail Mary moves in apparently desperate efforts to get corroboration.


Hi Tugela,

1st BBM: Whether it was just a "few spots of blood" or more than a few spots of blood: the bottom line IMO is that Holly was injured at her home.


2nd BBM: I totally disagree ... "abducting" and "kidnapping" a person is felony, and IMO it is a critical point in Holly's case as to WHY she was abducted and WHO abducted her ...

Also, who knows what the abductor / "camo man" did to Holly BEFORE ZA and JA were involved, and there needs to be total justice for Holly !

JMO but I don't think JA was "camo man" -- but ZA -- maybe ?

All JMO and :moo:
 
SA was offered immunity for leading LE to Hollys remains but when they searched that area there was nothing.
Does anyone know where this area was?
Just thinking out aloud here.
Where Holly was found had previously been searched in the weeks after she went missing and now 3 years later she is found there? Very odd and adds more concrete to the theory that she was in fact moved?
I think SA did know where she was when he made that deal (or why bother), i think he just didn't know she had been moved.
I would be really interested to know where he proposed she was and where they searched.

I, too, would be interested in knowing where he told them to look versus where she was found. Maybe she was moved later on. Maybe SA is one of those people who couldn't find his way out of a wet paper bag without a flashlight and a guide dog and he gave wrong directions. Or maybe they searched close to her but just didn't see her. I am constantly amazed at the number of times that victims are found very close to where searches took place.
 
I, too, would be interested in knowing where he told them to look versus where she was found. Maybe she was moved later on. Maybe SA is one of those people who couldn't find his way out of a wet paper bag without a flashlight and a guide dog and he gave wrong directions. Or maybe they searched close to her but just didn't see her. I am constantly amazed at the number of times that victims are found very close to where searches took place.

So very true. They are tight lipped on certain details arent they? I dont think they didnt fjnd her while they were near her. They had dogs. My Theory and a theory only, is that she was dumped in the well. SA took an immunity deal to lead LE to her body and pointed them towards the well. But at some point another party (maybe MA i was asking about earlier) had already moved her and because of all of the arrests SA wasnt in the know. I think although they didnt find her remains in the well, they found something significant enough to start pressing serious charges of kidnapping and murder.
I have a strong feeling that LE has not been fully open with all the details of evidence because of the amount of people involved and i wouldnt be surprised if one of them is singing.
My theory may not all work because im a bit sketchy on the timeline still with so much happening. But at present thats my theory.
 
So very true. They are tight lipped on certain details arent they? I dont think they didnt fjnd her while they were near her. They had dogs. My Theory and a theory only, is that she was dumped in the well. SA took an immunity deal to lead LE to her body and pointed them towards the well. But at some point another party (maybe MA i was asking about earlier) had already moved her and because of all of the arrests SA wasnt in the know. I think although they didnt find her remains in the well, they found something significant enough to start pressing serious charges of kidnapping and murder.

I have a strong feeling that LE has not been fully open with all the details of evidence because of the amount of people involved and i wouldnt be surprised if one of them is singing.

My theory may not all work because im a bit sketchy on the timeline still with so much happening. But at present thats my theory.

No need to apologize for having assumptions, or for not knowing details, because at this point no one here knows much of anything as to what LE might know.

To be candid, so far we really have no clue how much LE knows. I've seen mention of only one single piece of "evidence" against these defendants that LE has claimed to have, and that's it.

As a result, for the most part, everyone here is pretty much creating their own assumed "evidence" based on their own unvalidated assumptions. They see this or that, and assume that there must be ___________ to be presented at trial. Some of it may be right, maybe even all of it ...or most or all the assumptions may be completely wrong.

What does LE really have? Who knows. Maybe a lot, maybe a little. They claim they have "volumes" of evidence, but quantity isn't of much help if it doesn't have quality to it. And while there have been lots of assumptions about that unknown evidence, I've seen a bunch of evidence that LE has eventually admitted they DON'T have, even though people have assumed the opposite - - so the assumptions here can be completely wrong.

Take your best guess and join the crowd. :)
 
My opinions only, no facts here:

I have previously acknowledged that it is possible that Holly's remains were moved (once). If this happened, I still doubt that she was originally in a well on the main suspect's property. Even a fool would not put, for example, a deer in their own water supply. Another problem is that after three years in a well, the ability to recover 100% of the remains (for removal to another location) is quite unlikely. The pertinent wells were searched by authorities, and if the authorities are to be believed, they did not initially find partial remains in those wells. But, let us pretend that the suspects in 2014 got scared that the authorities would discover the remains and moved them to a "SAFER" place. Yeah, a much safer place, right on top of the ground with a plastic bucket too! (remember that if the remains were recently moved, we cannot talk about them having been buried at the new location). This is crazy- suspects do not move damning evidence to more conspicuous locations! Even barely-rational suspects would have re-buried the remains at least 3 feet down (maybe 15-20 minutes of shovel work) and the remains would have never been found. In my opinion, if Holly's remains were dug-up and moved to the discovery location with the intent to hide them better, this did not happen in 2014.

This is unfortunately, NOT a Sherlock Holmes moment, where all but one possibility has been eliminated. Based upon what I said above, here are some of the avenues that I would explore further:

1) Holly was placed there on or about the day of the abduction, shallowly buried, and skeletal remains were later dug up by animals. The bucket was coincidentally left there by a ginseng hunter when the remains were not yet visible at the surface.

2) Holly was placed there on or about the day of the abduction, shallowly buried, and skeletal remains were later dug up by animals. The bucket was placed there so the location could be found again to move the remains OR the bucket represented a "headstone monument" because of remorse by the perpetrator(s).

3) skeletal remains (from an earlier burial location) and a bucket were placed at the same time; the bucket was added as a visual clue in the hopes that the remains would be more quickly found by ginseng hunters or another outdoorsman. The convenient and serendipitious timing of the discovery of the remains could suggest that a clever unnamed lone-wolf perpetrator took advantage of all the arrests and disinterred the remains and placed them where they could be discovered and strengthen the authorities' present cases.

4) skeletal remains IN a bucket (collected from another location) were placed there as a deliberate taunt. In this scenario, the remains could have been placed not long after the abduction (remains from a fire pit) OR re-transported there from another burial location, years after the abduction. The bucket was then knocked over and skeletal contents scattered by animals.

5) just to keep you thinking, the skeletal remains (from a fire pit around the time of the abduction, or years later from an original grave site) were placed UNDER an overturned bucket to protect them from the elements. This tenuous scenario would imply some sort of remorse by the perpetrator(s).

6) or maybe, our understanding of the true details of the discovery of Holly's remains is flawed.

But, as Richard Nixon would say, let me make one thing perfectly clear: if Holly's remains were placed upon the surface so as to be deliberately discovered by another, it is either a taunt, a false-flag (by the true suspect), or remorse and guilt by the perpetrator(s).

Sleuth On!
 
Since we are only grasping at straws just to know what was found, drawing reliable inferences using such a complete lack of knowledge is going to be impossible, sad to say.

We know the bucket contained something, and the implication was offered that it was case-related stuff (which rules out the idea it was left there by a different party), but we don't know what stuff that might be. We know it wasn't big enough to have ever contained all the remains at once, only a 2 gallon bucket, but there are lots of things (or collections) smaller than 2 gallons.

Did the bucket have a lid? Was it on the bucket when first found? Did it have any markings, or identifiers of any sort? Was anything written on it? We don't have a clue.

Was the bucket used as a depository of personal effects or maybe even something more ghastly, such as body parts? What was or wasn't in it tells part of the story, but we don't know that either.

It's certainly possible that Holly's body was dumped there at some point, or maybe it was tossed, or maybe it was carefully placed there. Or it may have been atop the ground, or it may have been hurriedly buried in a shallow grave. The condition of the remains, and what detritus was on them, probably tells the story of how the remains were originally situated and whether or not that changed due to nature, and may tell it clearly, but we aren't owners of that info.

Was she hurriedly buried at this place soon after her demise, but not deep enough, and over time due to the elements it worked its way to the surface? Again, there's forensic evidence that probably answers those questions, but we don't have it, so no way to know if she was or wasn't buried, and no way to know what inferences we can then derive.

The excavation they did probably revealed stuff, perhaps forensics told how long her remains were sitting there exposed which would gives some clues as to how she might have come to be there, and maybe even provide clues of whether she had been moved once or more after her demise. No doubt LE examined all that, but we've no idea what it told.

But without the info that LE has, the variations are so numerous that there's no way to even begin to tell the story, other than by making up whatever we want to make up. LE may know a lot, but we have no info to work from apart from our own biases.
 
Since we are only grasping at straws just to know what was found, drawing reliable inferences using such a complete lack of knowledge is going to be impossible, sad to say.

We know the bucket contained something, and the implication was offered that it was case-related stuff (which rules out the idea it was left there by a different party), but we don't know what stuff that might be. We know it wasn't big enough to have ever contained all the remains at once, only a 2 gallon bucket, but there are lots of things (or collections) smaller than 2 gallons.

Did the bucket have a lid? Was it on the bucket when first found? Did it have any markings, or identifiers of any sort? Was anything written on it? We don't have a clue.

Was the bucket used as a depository of personal effects or maybe even something more ghastly, such as body parts? What was or wasn't in it tells part of the story, but we don't know that either.

It's certainly possible that Holly's body was dumped there at some point, or maybe it was tossed, or maybe it was carefully placed there. Or it may have been atop the ground, or it may have been hurriedly buried in a shallow grave. The condition of the remains, and what detritus was on them, probably tells the story of how the remains were originally situated and whether or not that changed due to nature, and may tell it clearly, but we aren't owners of that info.

Was she hurriedly buried at this place soon after her demise, but not deep enough, and over time due to the elements it worked its way to the surface? Again, there's forensic evidence that probably answers those questions, but we don't have it, so no way to know if she was or wasn't buried, and no way to know what inferences we can then derive.

The excavation they did probably revealed stuff, perhaps forensics told how long her remains were sitting there exposed which would gives some clues as to how she might have come to be there, and maybe even provide clues of whether she had been moved once or more after her demise. No doubt LE examined all that, but we've no idea what it told.

But without the info that LE has, the variations are so numerous that there's no way to even begin to tell the story, other than by making up whatever we want to make up. LE may know a lot, but we have no info to work from apart from our own biases.

My opinions only, no facts here:

There is not a "complete lack of knowledge" in the Holly Bobo case my good friend, even concerning the more recent details about the discovery of Holly's remains. For example, I have a detailed +3 year timeline, begun just after the abduction and presented on Websleuths earlier in 2014, and this involves the simplification of thousands of sources of info. I have similarly been evaluating the recent discovery of Holly's remains (this post-dates the publication of my official timeline). Besides, Websleuths is all about trying to understand criminal mysteries without knowing everything that the authorities know. WE WEBSLEUTHERS ARE NOT "grasping at straws". WE here at Websleuths possess a lot of useful information and interesting ideas. Remember the Sherlock Holmes quote: "On the contrary Watson, you see everything, but are too timid in drawing your inferences". If timidity ruled the day, Websleuths would disappear in a moment. Recall the spirit of Sherlock Holmes; he took interpretive risks even in the face of the most abstruse and complicated cases.

We do not know if the plastic bucket contained the remains originally, was placed there to hasten the discovery of the remains, or was turned upside down over the remains as a memorial. In addition, the bucket may have been big enough to hold the remains if they were partial (burned in a fire pit or incompletely recovered from the original grave site).

You are exactly right, in that correct forensic science can answer many of the questions of the history of the remains. But we do know enough at this point to postulate about the five or six possible scenarios that led to the location and discovery of Holly's remains. WE do know enough to propose theories. That is what Websleuths is all about my friend. There truly is enough information to forward various hypotheses, including yours. I am trying (since this criminal court case may go on forever?) to encourage my friends at Websleuths to continue to propose their individual theories. What is your particular theory about the discovery and location of Holly Bobo's remains and/or the overall criminal case? I have read every post you ever submitted on this thread, but you remain a mystery man (when it comes to final opinions). What are your specific hypotheses? Where do you stand my man?

Sleuth On!
 
I received an email from WKRN producer and MP's next court date is Oct. 10th, next Friday.
 
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