How did the McCanns dispose of the body - how did they do it ?

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Hi Tink

Of course unless things are impossible and proved to be - then everything of course is possible .

I agree that it could have been possible for Gerry to carry a dead Madeleine down to the beach - throw her in the sea and then return to the flat - shower / clean himself uo and then both of them put on a happy face and wander down for dinner - have a bit of a laugh a glass of wine until time to put the plan of a missing Maddy into place.

But I just dont think so - for one you would have to go pretty far out to sea to make sure the body didint get washed up somewhere - . bidies fliat and get carried by tidal currents ,

Also it just doesnt fit with the known charactersitics of the family - no history of abuse , no history atall of anything that fits the scenario you paint .

But hey its 5 years and no-one has any answers so who am I to say what is correct and not correct - I just cant see that as what happened .


I don't see how this time frame means they couldn't dispose of the body. You have an hour there between 7:30 and 8:30. Could not someone have just carried an (apparently) sleeping child down to the ocean and disposed of the body there? Seems pretty straightforward to me.

TP
 
absolutely if there was a chest freezer or walk in freezer near by that they had immediate access to before and then afterwards when the coast was clear to retrieve the body. Amaral had the same thought.

But where this freezer was ? - who gave them access to it and who also then allowed continued access to it afterwards..All possible

Murat who was the other arguido and a permanent resident so probably could have a large freezer had is place turned over by poilce

I just think that if amaral was even half awake he would have checked every known freezer in the area - must have done.

My own though that regardless of who was involved Maddy was not in the area - taken out by car either dead or alive by persons unknown only thing that makes sense to me




From my days on the JonBenet board, I remember the scent of death was evident when John brought her up from the basement. If the McCanns had put her in a freezer or cooler with ice, would they have been able to stall the scent of death long enough?
 
You think there has been mass murder of children in a jersey care home, based on milk teeth (which according to some on here woudl nto alert a dog since they came from alliving person). The bone fragment story turne dout to be incorrect.

And I also put in the business newspaper for the prout case, but I thought the red top was appropriate as it seems that so many get their information about Grimes from them, as the normal papers do not seem to be interested in him. All the claims of "top dogs" come from the red tops.

And by saying until bodies are found in the care home, the debate will continue? If no bodies have been found surely that is proof too. How can it be that it is the case that until a person is proven right they will continue to claim there is a debate on going. There is no debate about the jersey car ehome aside form a few blogs online that claim to know the truth, but do nto seem to actually coem up with anything more concrete than it is all a cover-up. Right up their with those who think the american twin towers attacks were an inside job, Diana was murdered etc. No doubt people are claiming that until proof that diana was murdered turns up, the debate will continue for the simple reason that if they do not see the result they want they will just claim conspiracy. Personally I think it is sad that grown adults are so desperate for the mccanns to be guilty that they would rather there had been child murders in a care home than face the humiliation of being wrong.

Well as the "cadaver" dog was actually a victim recovery dog, and he failed to recover a victim, it is a massive fail. There was a victim there, he failed to recover her. Unless you have proof that eddie succeeded in recovering the victim.

But this is going off topic. The topic is how did they dispose of the body.
We know madeleine was alive and well at five thirty. We know by ten when several people inc. MW staff searched the flat she was not in the flat. It got dark at eight thorty, and this is when other guests lace the mccanns at the tapas bar. We know from witnesses they were only alone for a max of five minutes between then and ten. We also know gerry was at the tennis courts between six and seven thirty.

So how did they in this time frame dispose of the body. I believe it is impossible and therefore this means they are not guilty.

If we are to believe that eddie only alerts to a body how did weeks later the body come into contact with the mccanns car fobb, and nothing else, and how despite the hundreds of witnesses did no-one notice the mccanns retrieving a three month old corpse.

I am betting not one person convinced of the mccanns guilt on the basis of a dog barking, can come up with a credible theory that fits with the actual facts of the case.

Perhaps you didnt read the link I posted, but never mind eh?
Even the Officials who came in after Lenny Harper aceepted that Human remains WERE found, that kind of flies in the face of your statements that none were eh?

I am really tired of your comments suggesting that I am stating things where in fact I have dont nothing of the sort, your latest being

quote Brit1981
You think there has been mass murder of children in a jersey care home, based on milk teeth

I suggest you re read my posts and qualify your comment

With regards to your links, the whole idea of a link is to back up a statement - your links did nothing of the sort as I stated in a previous post.
Again, it seems that you are stating your opinions as facts, unfortunately, without any actual fact.

Unfortunately you have failed to back up your bold statements yet again
 
No-one is apologising for the care home abuse - that is a tad insulting and does nothing to prosper any sort if normal discussion

what people say is that there is no evidence of anyone being killed at the home or a lot of bodies being found- which was the lurid headlines at the time .

Can you give me a list of how many bodies were retrieved frim the site after the investigation. ?

Gord
I wasnt aware you had posted a comment about the Jersey abuse case?
Brit1981 called it "the Jersey fiasco"
Personally I would say that was insulting the victims of the abuse there and I do agree with Clutchbag that there are people who try to use the Jersey case to further the attempts to rubbish the work of Martin Grime and his dogs.

If the Jersey case is the only possible way to discredit the dogs, then in my opinion, the discrediting attempts are on very shaky ground indeed.

I find it odd that in one paragraph you state

is a tad insulting and does nothing to prosper any sort if normal discussion
yet then go on to ask the question
Can you give me a list of how many bodies were retrieved frim the site after the investigation
Hardly helping to promote a normal discussion is it?
 
I didint see any one try and be apologists for the abuse at the home - what was how I interpreted the comment - but however life is too short - at the end of the day we are a forum discussing the why and whos of this case = and if my comment about asking how many bodies were found at Jersey upset anyone then I apologise

the point I and I think Brit was making was that whatever went on at Jersey - and there is no doubt abuse did happen and people are in prison and others being tracked . However to the best of my knowledge there was no human remains discovered in the site at the areas they started digging after alerts from the dogs.- that is the only point - all tbhis talk about pros apparentky discrediting the dogs as if somehow this will affect any case going forward - well I dont just get it. Grimes was pretty clear in his summary - whatever dogs alert then in this country there has to be further corrorative evidence - and un this case this has not been found . hence we had no charge and no case

so we are left with opinion and what we think. I dont know - neither do you or any forum watcher - we just make a few educated/ or in some cases a few non educated stabs in what we pick up on line.

In the UK someone is going to court because of his beliefs - this person who i am sure you all know will soon be able to test the case of the dogs in a british court of law - if he gets that far so maybe we can find out a bit more

until then lets all take a chill pill - including me and discuss and banter and disagree without getting too upset


oh and I would appreciate it if youi - sorry Fabgod could show me where I can find th info on human remains - in jersey - i didnt see any info on that - I saw stuff on milk teeth but not remains TA - sorry I have just read the telegraph link where Lenny Harper said they found bone fragments - although unable to be dated - I dont know how official that comment is - would like to see a police tatement about human remains as I have never seen the police release anything to say that they found anything - will do some more reading
 
Just to carry on with the debate on Jersey and why with all things it gets so confusing as there is so much conflicting stuff out there. I found another media article saying no remains found atall

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/mar/29/jersey-child-abuse-victims-compensation


suppose that is thie the thing with the media - was there ever an official Police Report on this whole case ?


also after reading these articles again - what is clear that there are some very evil people in this world
 
Just to carry on with the debate on Jersey and why with all things it gets so confusing as there is so much conflicting stuff out there. I found another media article saying no remains found atall

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/mar/29/jersey-child-abuse-victims-compensation


suppose that is thie the thing with the media - was there ever an official Police Report on this whole case ?


also after reading these articles again - what is clear that there are some very evil people in this world


Gord
Can I just say that it is refreshing to see a post from someone who obviously has different opinions from myself, actually embracing the sleuthing side of Websleuths.
As you say none of us know the real truth about any of the unresolved cases and there is as you state, so much conflicting information out there.

While we are all entitled to our opinions (and that is all that they are) no matter what we think we know is only from reports, spin from all sides and rumour, we don't know the true facts, not many do, it would be great if we could actually debate opinions here instead of defending or attacking the same points over and over again, hopefully, some will agree?
 
Back on topic, I dont know any answers regarding a fridge or freezer but the Church has always seemed a likely location for me, The McCanns were given the keys sometime later, Father Pacheco (spelling?) has apparently said the McCanns tricked him and ruined his life or similar.
As far as I can work out, the man with child could have been headed toward the beach area where the church is located, dogs would not be able to distinguish scent where I presume so many bodies have been and the McCanns certainly seemed to "turn to God" in the period shortly after Madeleine went missing.
All opinion, no evidence, just a thought?
 
Back on topic, I dont know any answers regarding a fridge or freezer but the Church has always seemed a likely location for me, The McCanns were given the keys sometime later, Father Pacheco (spelling?) has apparently said the McCanns tricked him and ruined his life or similar.
As far as I can work out, the man with child could have been headed toward the beach area where the church is located, dogs would not be able to distinguish scent where I presume so many bodies have been and the McCanns certainly seemed to "turn to God" in the period shortly after Madeleine went missing.
All opinion, no evidence, just a thought?


I have spent the last 5 years in varius forums reading about this on and off ( more off sometimes ) For whatever reason this case really got to me as it is such a mass of conflicting emotions and view points - apart from being a complete mystery.

I have always thought that the only way Gerry could have hidden or disposed of Maddy without detection would have been if he had lots of time to take in what happened - digest it - and then act. The theorys that Maddy had died in the previous days and was falsey signed into the creche make more sense to me if you are trying to work out a time line for Maddy to be so well hidden ,

But that brings into question other witnesses being wrong about seeing Maddy at 5.30 ( Creche nanny pennington ) this then leads to a whole load of issues in itself - and was something that the original police seem to have discounted .

Without repeating ad nauseam previous points it does seem tough to imagine say Gerry discovering say maddy dead from say some reaction to medication or maybe having fallen and then Gerry fiorst thought was of disposal. But if we accept that as given then there was time to head for the church and then dispose of the body in a freezer there, Again though it just seems fraught wiith issues - ie when did they retrieve , why didnt anyone check etc etc -

For Gerry to hav done this means he must have been in a very disturbed place - I dont care who you are you dnt just dispose of your child unless you are either a psycopath or disturbed.

There are plent of cases of parents killing their children becasuse of severe post natal depression or say through family break up that leads to the father killing - but in these cases there is usually no attempt to hide the crime.

I have not read Amarals book - did he say anything in this book about the church or his theory of freezers .

I also want to go vback and read any statemenst form the priest if available
 
I have spent the last 5 years in varius forums reading about this on and off ( more off sometimes ) For whatever reason this case really got to me as it is such a mass of conflicting emotions and view points - apart from being a complete mystery.

I have always thought that the only way Gerry could have hidden or disposed of Maddy without detection would have been if he had lots of time to take in what happened - digest it - and then act. The theorys that Maddy had died in the previous days and was falsey signed into the creche make more sense to me if you are trying to work out a time line for Maddy to be so well hidden ,

But that brings into question other witnesses being wrong about seeing Maddy at 5.30 ( Creche nanny pennington ) this then leads to a whole load of issues in itself - and was something that the original police seem to have discounted .

Without repeating ad nauseam previous points it does seem tough to imagine say Gerry discovering say maddy dead from say some reaction to medication or maybe having fallen and then Gerry fiorst thought was of disposal. But if we accept that as given then there was time to head for the church and then dispose of the body in a freezer there, Again though it just seems fraught wiith issues - ie when did they retrieve , why didnt anyone check etc etc -

For Gerry to hav done this means he must have been in a very disturbed place - I dont care who you are you dnt just dispose of your child unless you are either a psycopath or disturbed.

There are plent of cases of parents killing their children becasuse of severe post natal depression or say through family break up that leads to the father killing - but in these cases there is usually no attempt to hide the crime.

I have not read Amarals book - did he say anything in this book about the church or his theory of freezers .

I also want to go vback and read any statemenst form the priest if available

I struggle with a reason for hiding a body, it doesnt make sense to me that they would prefer to take their chances by hiding a child that had died from some accident rather than admit what had happened and most likely face an investigation that would be far less serious than concealing a corpse, perverting the course of Justice and so on, it would have been an accident and while tragic, would surely not have escalated to the situation they found themselves in when made suspects in 2007.

If say, Gerry McCann did hide the body, the only reasons to my mind would be that he was in his mind at least, doing it to in some way salvage something in his family life.
What I mean is, I personally cannot see him hiding his dead daughter to save his job, it doesnt make any sense to me, but, if for example, Kate McCann had lost the plot and Madeleine had died from an incident, then I could see Gerry McCann acting on the spur of the moment, thinking that Madeleine was gone, but he could maybe save the rest of the family unit, by covering it up and pretending that someone had taken Madeleine.
In his mind possibly, he could have thought that the twins would lose their Mother, he may lose the children into care as a result?

I'm not stating this as something I am believing happened, just that I could see that being a reason to possibly attempt a cover up.

Still, there would be massive obstacles to overcome and I would have thought that if the above or similar did happen, then they would have wanted the body to be found in order to give her a proper burial, maybe that was the intention when the finger was pointed at RM, who knows?

I havent read Amarals book so cannot comment on his theories but with regards to the Church, by needing the keys, I guess its safe to say that the church was locked at night, which then begs the question, how would they have hidden the body there on the evening because surely in the next few days, with all the attention on the area, it would have been nigh on impossible to move it to the church?
 
I struggle with a reason for hiding a body, it doesnt make sense to me that they would prefer to take their chances by hiding a child that had died from some accident rather than admit what had happened and most likely face an investigation that would be far less serious than concealing a corpse, perverting the course of Justice and so on, it would have been an accident and while tragic, would surely not have escalated to the situation they found themselves in when made suspects in 2007.

If say, Gerry McCann did hide the body, the only reasons to my mind would be that he was in his mind at least, doing it to in some way salvage something in his family life.
What I mean is, I personally cannot see him hiding his dead daughter to save his job, it doesnt make any sense to me, but, if for example, Kate McCann had lost the plot and Madeleine had died from an incident, then I could see Gerry McCann acting on the spur of the moment, thinking that Madeleine was gone, but he could maybe save the rest of the family unit, by covering it up and pretending that someone had taken Madeleine.
In his mind possibly, he could have thought that the twins would lose their Mother, he may lose the children into care as a result?

I'm not stating this as something I am believing happened, just that I could see that being a reason to possibly attempt a cover up.

Still, there would be massive obstacles to overcome and I would have thought that if the above or similar did happen, then they would have wanted the body to be found in order to give her a proper burial, maybe that was the intention when the finger was pointed at RM, who knows?

I havent read Amarals book so cannot comment on his theories but with regards to the Church, by needing the keys, I guess its safe to say that the church was locked at night, which then begs the question, how would they have hidden the body there on the evening because surely in the next few days, with all the attention on the area, it would have been nigh on impossible to move it to the church?

The McCanns were left completely alone from 4am onwards.

They describe going for a walk together at 6 the next morning and there was "no one about". Remember at this stage, they were complaining full force at the perceived lack of LE attention.

I think it likely they moved her on this walk.
 
Hi Tink

Of course unless things are impossible and proved to be - then everything of course is possible .

I agree that it could have been possible for Gerry to carry a dead Madeleine down to the beach - throw her in the sea and then return to the flat - shower / clean himself uo and then both of them put on a happy face and wander down for dinner - have a bit of a laugh a glass of wine until time to put the plan of a missing Maddy into place.

But I just dont think so - for one you would have to go pretty far out to sea to make sure the body didint get washed up somewhere - . bidies fliat and get carried by tidal currents ,

Also it just doesnt fit with the known charactersitics of the family - no history of abuse , no history atall of anything that fits the scenario you paint .

But hey its 5 years and no-one has any answers so who am I to say what is correct and not correct - I just cant see that as what happened .

I think I have seen too many cases of people who kept up the facade of being perfectly normal and who did horrible things. I think I've mentioned before Karla and Paul Bernardo, who had no criminal records and who raped (over several days) a teenage girl and left her body in their house, while they had a cheerful Easter dinner with their families. They also raped and killed Karla's younger sister at Christmas, with nobody suspecting them. Then there was Russell Williams who became head of a Canadian armed forces base, highly respected, who murdered two women and assaulted many others yet seemed normal to everyone who saw him. People cold enough to do these crimes are very capable of deceiving others.

It was the video of Gerry taken just a couple of days after his daughter's disappearance where he was laughing with his friends that was one of the things that made me wonder about their possible involvement. He was not choking out a laugh because his friends were trying to cheer him up - he was re-telling some funny incident, laughing and trying to make them laugh. That's not a grieving father. I have had close friends lose a child, I have worked (in my job) with parents who have lost children, and that simply isn't how they behave. That to me shows a level of coldness that could dispose of a child's body and keep up normal behaviour in order to save his own skin.

I am not sure about how far out to sea you would need to go - I am not familiar with currents, etc., in that area. I know that in some places where I have been, there are areas of drop-off and undertow quite close to the shore that you are warned about. If there was something like that nearby, they might have learned about it during the vacation.

And my other thought would be that perhaps he didn't think it mattered. Let's say that a day or two later the child's body did wash ashore. Would there be anything to connect it to the parents? Probably not. You could just say that the abductor threw her in the water, and who could prove otherwise?

Tink
 
I think I have seen too many cases of people who kept up the facade of being perfectly normal and who did horrible things. I think I've mentioned before Karla and Paul Bernardo, who had no criminal records and who raped (over several days) a teenage girl and left her body in their house, while they had a cheerful Easter dinner with their families. They also raped and killed Karla's younger sister at Christmas, with nobody suspecting them. Then there was Russell Williams who became head of a Canadian armed forces base, highly respected, who murdered two women and assaulted many others yet seemed normal to everyone who saw him. People cold enough to do these crimes are very capable of deceiving others.

It was the video of Gerry taken just a couple of days after his daughter's disappearance where he was laughing with his friends that was one of the things that made me wonder about their possible involvement. He was not choking out a laugh because his friends were trying to cheer him up - he was re-telling some funny incident, laughing and trying to make them laugh. That's not a grieving father. I have had close friends lose a child, I have worked (in my job) with parents who have lost children, and that simply isn't how they behave. That to me shows a level of coldness that could dispose of a child's body and keep up normal behaviour in order to save his own skin.

I am not sure about how far out to sea you would need to go - I am not familiar with currents, etc., in that area. I know that in some places where I have been, there are areas of drop-off and undertow quite close to the shore that you are warned about. If there was something like that nearby, they might have learned about it during the vacation.

And my other thought would be that perhaps he didn't think it mattered. Let's say that a day or two later the child's body did wash ashore. Would there be anything to connect it to the parents? Probably not. You could just say that the abductor threw her in the water, and who could prove otherwise?

Tink

That is an excellent point.

By the time the sea returned her, all forensic traces would be long gone.

I don't think that's what happened though, that night anyway. I think he buried her somewhere early the next day, or perhaps refrigerated her.

I think they moved her in the Renault and dumped her out to sea far away from PDL, in a spot she would be unlikely to wash up from.

They possibly hired a boat to take her far out to sea.

Of course, this is just a guess, based on what we know re. cadaver in the Renault 25 days later.

:banghead:
 
i must admit I find it hard going to think the mccanns disposed of their childs body just because she had an accident in their absence, any prison sentence would have been nonexistant or minimal if that was the case which suggests to me she didnt have an accident whilst alone but was struck fatally e.g. JMO
 
I agree that she is small and could be hidden anywhere - but to avoid even dogs searching ?

The comparison to April Jones is interesting - whilst we do not yet know the outcome - the perpertrator had a car and at least 12 hours + to hide /dispose of a body in a vast area

The Mccanns had no vehicle so they were not going to go far and only a n hour or two at most ( less by some time lines )

Plus how on earth di they manage to retrieve the body from the hiding place and then transfer to the hire car many weeks later -

If she was put in a bag no tracker dog would be able to follow the scent but we know a cadaver dog found the scent in their flat and on kate mccanns clothes, what is the excuse for that?

the cadaver dog was taken along the beaches there and found nothing, ergo she was not buried as some speculate and retrieved later, and moved in the car, theres no evidence for this at all

Gerry mccann imo is a control freak narcissistic psychopath so its anyones guess what happened

paparazi shot days after the abduction and after he was telling people on the phone he feared his child was taken by paedophiles

Gerry McCann is happy - YouTube

What a distraught father
 
I think she may have had an "accident on purpose".

I think her mother had possibly fantasised for a while about life without Madeleine.

I suspect Madeleine was a challenging child and when the twins came along, she was surplus to requirements. I don't think her mother came out and struck her, but I do suspect an impulsive overdose of some medication or other to make her sleep.

Kate professed to having a bad feeling about this holiday, to the point she nearly cancelled...yet this happens to be the holiday their neglectful behaviour ends in a preventable abduction? Come on now.

If she was as fearful as she claimed, she would never have left her babies alone.

I think she just went to far this time, with or without meaning to. I think she'd done it in her mind many times, when she was left alone with three strange, creche-reared kids and no husband to share the load.

:cow:
 
wouldnt be the first time sapphire truth is stranger than fiction so many mothers kill their kids
 
If she was put in a bag no tracker dog would be able to follow the scent but we know a cadaver dog found the scent in their flat and on kate mccanns clothes, what is the excuse for that?

the cadaver dog was taken along the beaches there and found nothing, ergo she was not buried as some speculate and retrieved later, and moved in the car, theres no evidence for this at all

Gerry mccann imo is a control freak narcissistic psychopath so its anyones guess what happened

paparazi shot days after the abduction and after he was telling people on the phone his child was taken by paedophiles

Gerry McCann is happy - YouTube

What a distraught father

That is spine chilling.

That and the photo of them laughing at the church service on Madeleine's 4th birthday.

:sick:

And Gerry and his whiteboard with it's "wider agenda"

:maddening:

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id1.html
 
That is spine chilling.

That and the photo of them laughing at the church service on Madeleine's 4th birthday.

:sick:

And Gerry and his whiteboard with it's "wider agenda"

:maddening:

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id1.html

Wider agenda! I suggest his ONLY agenda should be his child and not giving flashy corporate style presentations a week after his first born was snatched, alledgedly, what an odious and thoroughly unbelievable man

He is also a liar saying it was HIM who asked thecadaver dogs to be brought in, yawn

see post 334 for proof

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8389571&highlight=Irish#post8389571
 
I think she may have had an "accident on purpose".

I think her mother had possibly fantasised for a while about life without Madeleine.

I suspect Madeleine was a challenging child and when the twins came along, she was surplus to requirements. I don't think her mother came out and struck her, but I do suspect an impulsive overdose of some medication or other to make her sleep.

Kate professed to having a bad feeling about this holiday, to the point she nearly cancelled...yet this happens to be the holiday their neglectful behaviour ends in a preventable abduction? Come on now.

If she was as fearful as she claimed, she would never have left her babies alone.

I think she just went to far this time, with or without meaning to. I think she'd done it in her mind many times, when she was left alone with three strange, creche-reared kids and no husband to share the load.

:cow:


In my mind, I always go back to the first few days after the news that Madeleine was missing, How bad Kate McCann looked in her TV appearances.
At the time in the very early days, she was a dishevelled broken woman, shaking and bruised, I like many people bought into the grief and the loss, but it was soon altered by the press revealing as Sapphire points out "the wider agenda" and again the total transformation on leaving the church in PdL as though a massive weight had been lifted especially from Kate McCanns shoulders.
She was radiant, smiling, well turned out, a totally different woman to the broken Kate mcCann we had seen.

At the time, I thought that maybe they had received some positive news, maybe they knew she was still alive, maybe a ransom had been issued, but in hindsight, the bruises, the broken woman could all be suggested as a woman who was fearing the worst for herself.

we have seen the McCann version of events as to why she was bruised, hitting walls, kicking beds etc, we have heard that Kate McCann fell out with Gerry McCann on one of the previous evenings and slept in the kids room, but what if the McCann version is not the true story, what if she did lose it but for a different reason, what if the bruises were caused by someone trying to calm her down following an incident?
 
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