ID - 2 year boy accidentally shoots and kills mother in walmart in ths US

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sonjay said:
Canned peas for self-defense:
Alabama middle school principal tells kids to bring canned goods to class, throw them at possible gunmen
An Alabama middle school asked students to bring canned goods to school so they can throw them at potential gunman....
Canned peas! :gasp:
Click to expand...
sbm
Uh-oh, bad pun alert:

Like some ppl criticizing the NRA said -- just give peas a chance.

Carry on, back on topic.
 
CoolJ said:
Sonjay and TrackerSam. I don't want to argue. I don't even really want to debate. I just want to learn more about the mindset that thinks it is ok for a country to have (what I consider to be) a ridiculous amount of guns. Try to understand that I did not grow up with that mentality. It does seem silly to me. Not you personally. I have said numerous times I don't condemn you for having guns. I don't condemn America. I just think it is better for a nation to have control over who gets and especially carries guns.
I am not saying Canada is better. But I do think our gun control laws make things safer for the average person. Tell me you disagree all day long. I am 100% cool with that.
But please don't tell me I am wrong and please don't try to bring race into this. It wasn't either of you who brought that up, but I did see your replies that supported that post.

So let's agree to disagree. If you wish to continue to discuss like adults, I am in.
Click to expand...

I live in the USA & must state first that I do not support the philosophy of "nationalism".

To help you understand about America, I would say we are a nation of extremes. We send our young sons out to fight battles throughout **generations** & around the world-- many die (think Normandy) & we have a bloody history. The numbers of casualties during the Revolution, Civil War, WWI & II, Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc, etc is **startling**.
The numbers of our population of soldiers dying is unique in history.

Next, we are a nation of monetary extremes when it comes to segments of our society being dirt poor to the wealthiest in the world. We sometimes glorify white collar criminals as well as violent gangs through social media, movies, & song. Monetary disparity between classes within our society is enormous. Take my word for it: there's no other country with a wealth disparity like the USA.

And then we had the whole "melting pot", diaspora, & slavery thing to add some more layers into the culture of the USA. Some countries have experienced some of this to a certain extent but not in the numbers that the USA has.

The USA is a unique beast and I respect the sacrifices & contributions she has made. For all of our shortcomings, we are highly charitable.

That being said, in terms of protecting oneself with guns: try walking down a street in Detroit, Camden, or Chicago at midnight. Do it. Then come back & report (if you survive) & tell us what your **feelings** about carrying a gun would be. You have to live it. Otherwise you're all theory. Our prison stats are almost unbelievable which is a whole 'nut her facet.

Respect that we feel a need for self-protection at this point in our society. It is real. Canada is our "family" but it is not "us". There is no other "us" on this planet--with all of our good, bad, & the ugly.

Until I find a better place to live, I'm calling the USA home.

I hope I shared my perspective on things to shed light on the topic, CoolJ.

Thanks for listening.

Moo
 
Can I just say that I'm super glad this debate has been allowed to rage? Like at least we're still on the topic, and of course in the end those on opposite sides of this debate have to accept the fact that each side has arrived at their positions after much consideration, and it is part cultural, so none are likely to change their stance, but dagnannit, I'm loving that we're still talking about it :D
 
TrackerSam said:
Because what he writes is not what he means, who knows what he means. Like when he says Canadians are better at hockey. 1993 was the last time a Canadian team won the Stanly Cup. I've never heard anyone say the beer was better, hard to get from a government store and expensive but better it isn't. The whiskey is though IMO. I don't believe the health care is better and I certainly don't see people scrambling to become Canadian citizens.
Click to expand...

1)
olympics? "teams from canada have won the most medals": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_medalists_in_ice_hockey
world championships? "canada has won 45 medals, 24 gold, the most of any nation": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IIHF_World_Championship_medalists

2) i served beverages at our casino for years... visitors from the US consistently ordered our beer over others... and stated it tasted better (less watered down) :needdrink:

3) beer is not hard to get from our stores (lol): http://www.thebeerstore.ca/locations/goyeau-elliott-street

4)
"record number of new citizens for 2014": http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=916869
"want to shed US citizenship? get in line: http://globalnews.ca/news/1519628/want-to-shed-u-s-citizenship-get-in-line/

:leaf2::canada::beersign:
 
CoolJ said:
Sonjay and TrackerSam. I don't want to argue. I don't even really want to debate. I just want to learn more about the mindset that thinks it is ok for a country to have (what I consider to be) a ridiculous amount of guns. Try to understand that I did not grow up with that mentality. It does seem silly to me. Not you personally. I have said numerous times I don't condemn you for having guns. I don't condemn America. I just think it is better for a nation to have control over who gets and especially carries guns.
I am not saying Canada is better. But I do think our gun control laws make things safer for the average person. Tell me you disagree all day long. I am 100% cool with that.
But please don't tell me I am wrong and please don't try to bring race into this. It wasn't either of you who brought that up, but I did see your replies that supported that post.

So let's agree to disagree. If you wish to continue to discuss like adults, I am in.
Click to expand...

Seriously? You want to learn more about the mindset?

A little over 10 years ago, Hurricane Charley blew through town. The eye passed by just a couple of miles from my house. No power. No running water. Almost no stores were open, and the few that were would accept only cash and had bare shelves anyway. Without phone lines, they couldn't run credit or debit cards. Of course, ATMs didn't work either. Gas pumps didn't work. Power lines down all over the place. Trees down all over the place. Houses damaged all over the place. Traffic lights and signs were all out, of course -- driving was pretty hair-raising.

We decided to drive up the interstate to my in-laws' house to borrow their generator. Before leaving, we got in our utility buggy and drove around to see our various neighbors, to see if they needed us to pick up any fuel, ice, food, or other supplies. Every last one of them said, "No, we're fine. In fact, we've got some extra _____ if you need any." (Some offered ice, some offered gas, etc.) Between the fishing & hunting and the backyard fruit & vegetable gardens, none of us lacked food even while those in town were fighting over the last loaf of bread in the store.

That's gun owners in a nutshell. We do for ourselves. And by being prepared to take care of ourselves, we're also in a position to help others in need. There was a lot of neighbor-helping-neighbor after Charley. Trees that needed to be chain-sawed & removed, houses that needed repairs.

We're realists. We know that we are our own first responders. Well-stocked first aid kit -- check. Extra food in the larder, especially during hurricane season -- check. Fire extinguisher -- check. We don't live our lives in fear of disaster, but we know that when disaster strikes, those who are prepared for it are the most likely to come through it either unscathed or with a minimum of damage. I'm not talking prepper-style living here; just the garden-variety Boy Scout attitude of "be prepared."

We know that when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. We know that if bad guys attack, the best way to stop them is with an application of equal or greater force. We know that thugs target the vulnerable and prey on the weak, and so we make sure that we are not vulnerable or weak.

We are not the people anyone needs to feel unsafe from. But we're also not the people who will be victims. We don't believe in being victims.

There, now. Do I really seem all that dangerous, just because I have guns? All of my neighbors have guns; all of them are great neighbors to have, especially in a disaster, not because of their guns but because of their mindset. Does my neighborhood really sound all that dangerous? It might be the safest neighborhood in Florida, and might well be one of the safest neighborhoods in the country.
 
As an Australian I can categorically state that Canadian beer is in fact better than it's US counterpart, which is indeed 'watered down'.
 
sonjay said:
Seriously? You want to learn more about the mindset?

A little over 10 years ago, Hurricane Charley blew through town. The eye passed by just a couple of miles from my house. No power. No running water. Almost no stores were open, and the few that were would accept only cash and had bare shelves anyway. Without phone lines, they couldn't run credit or debit cards. Of course, ATMs didn't work either. Gas pumps didn't work. Power lines down all over the place. Trees down all over the place. Houses damaged all over the place. Traffic lights and signs were all out, of course -- driving was pretty hair-raising.

We decided to drive up the interstate to my in-laws' house to borrow their generator. Before leaving, we got in our utility buggy and drove around to see our various neighbors, to see if they needed us to pick up any fuel, ice, food, or other supplies. Every last one of them said, "No, we're fine. In fact, we've got some extra _____ if you need any." (Some offered ice, some offered gas, etc.) Between the fishing & hunting and the backyard fruit & vegetable gardens, none of us lacked food even while those in town were fighting over the last loaf of bread in the store.

That's gun owners in a nutshell. We do for ourselves. And by being prepared to take care of ourselves, we're also in a position to help others in need. There was a lot of neighbor-helping-neighbor after Charley. Trees that needed to be chain-sawed & removed, houses that needed repairs.

We're realists. We know that we are our own first responders. Well-stocked first aid kit -- check. Extra food in the larder, especially during hurricane season -- check. Fire extinguisher -- check. We don't live our lives in fear of disaster, but we know that when disaster strikes, those who are prepared for it are the most likely to come through it either unscathed or with a minimum of damage. I'm not talking prepper-style living here; just the garden-variety Boy Scout attitude of "be prepared."

We know that when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. We know that if bad guys attack, the best way to stop them is with an application of equal or greater force. We know that thugs target the vulnerable and prey on the weak, and so we make sure that we are not vulnerable or weak.

We are not the people anyone needs to feel unsafe from. But we're also not the people who will be victims. We don't believe in being victims.

There, now. Do I really seem all that dangerous, just because I have guns? All of my neighbors have guns; all of them are great neighbors to have, especially in a disaster, not because of their guns but because of their mindset. Does my neighborhood really sound all that dangerous? It might be the safest neighborhood in Florida, and might well be one of the safest neighborhoods in the country.
Click to expand...

In 2002, where I was living at the time on the east coast of Canada, we too had a rather damaging hurricane. Similar to Charley, we lost the same conveniences. Power lines all over the place, trees covering the roads, stores closed, gas stations closed etc.. We too came together as a community, making sure our neighbours had enough water and food and other necessities. Especially after that experience, people are prepared if it happens again. But nobody was walking around carrying. I guess nobody saw the need. I doubt many even thought of the idea.
I have already said I see no problem with folks having a hunting rifle or two, if that is your thing. And if the day ever came where there was no food available for whatever reason I suppose those hunting rifles would become a hot commodity. It is just my opinion that giving free reign to citizens to carry for self defence, to the point where there are 300 million guns, is going to lead to a lot of people who are criminal and/or mentally ill with easy access. That is what I think is dangerous. And I think that danger is apparent when you look at the number of homicides by gun in America.
You always say, "maybe it is not the guns" and I always say more guns = more needless deaths. Can we both be right?
OK, maybe it is not the guns. I know what you are saying here, because if there was nobody capable of killing then there wouldn't be so many needless deaths no matter how many guns were available. But the fact is, there are many many people capable of killing, probably the same per capita rate in Canada and the US and Australia and the UK. But in the US, those people have extremely easy access and if they want to kill chances are pretty good that is what is going to happen. If I have a knife and want to kill, how good are the chances I will be able to follow through, compared to someone with the same mentality to kill, but his weapon of choice is an Uzi?
After Sandy Hook the NRA, instead of showing a little compassion and trying to work with people to prevent these crazy incidents from happening, actually had the gall to go on the offensive and suggest an armed gunman security guard. What is that about? Instead of talking about a way to keep weapons made for mass casualties out of the hands of the mentally ill and criminals, the NRA is actually suggesting it would be better to have a shootout at an elementary school between a nutcase/criminal and an armed guard?
I just don't see the logic there, other than the NRA trying to sell more guns.
I just think there is a better path to peace than arming every citizen. JMO
 
Mrs G Norris said:
As an Australian I can categorically state that Canadian beer is in fact better than it's US counterpart, which is indeed 'watered down'.
Click to expand...

Ok, I'll play along with the silliness...

Everyone in the USA knows that beer is just a chaser for the strong stuff --> whiskey.

And the USA makes the best whiskey.
 
sonjay said:
Why do you have knives, baseball bats, dogs, outside lights, and the police programmed in your phone? Are you living in fear?
Click to expand...

Because I used to live in a high-crime area in Oakland, CA. My apartment was broken into there and there were gang members playing rap on my next door neighbor's porch at midnight. I moved. I now live in a low-crime area and I'm part of my Neighborhood Watch.
 
kline said:
Yeah unfortunately it seems alot more folks are carrying as an act of political posturing,or as a statement of resentment towards certain groups of Americans rather then just taking steps to insure personal safety.
Probably not a good reason to seek out the option of deadly force.
Click to expand...

Right, like owning an assault rifle for no good reason other than because you can!:doh:
 
Mrs G Norris said:
As an Australian I can categorically state that Canadian beer is in fact better than it's US counterpart, which is indeed 'watered down'.
Click to expand...

As for the lowest quality mass-produced beer (like Budweiser and Molson), both Canadian and American beer is crap. Canadian mass produced beer may be marginally better, just because fewer lines are rice based, and the alcohol content is higher.

As for higher end beer -- craft breweries, microbreweries, etc. -- the US is much better than Canada, largely because of the sheer number of breweries and competition.

But both Canada and the USA produce very poor beers compared to much of Europe, the UK and Germany especially.
 
TrackerSam said:
That's just not true unless you don't vote. You vote for people who share your views and they have, if elected, the power affect law.
Click to expand...

Oh, believe me, I have always voted! And I am very proud that my senators Diane Feinstein and Barbara Boxer have enacted the toughest gun laws in CA.
 
sonjay said:
Yesterday I took my dogs on a hike at the local environmental preserve. The population of feral hogs is out of control around here, and those suckers are mean and dangerous.

I had a firearm on me, just in case.

On the way home, I stopped at the grocery store. My firearm was still on me as I cruised the deli & the bakery.

Oh, the horror!
Click to expand...
I find that scary!
 
sonjay said:
Seriously? You want to learn more about the mindset?

A little over 10 years ago, Hurricane Charley blew through town. The eye passed by just a couple of miles from my house. No power. No running water. Almost no stores were open, and the few that were would accept only cash and had bare shelves anyway. Without phone lines, they couldn't run credit or debit cards. Of course, ATMs didn't work either. Gas pumps didn't work. Power lines down all over the place. Trees down all over the place. Houses damaged all over the place. Traffic lights and signs were all out, of course -- driving was pretty hair-raising.

We decided to drive up the interstate to my in-laws' house to borrow their generator. Before leaving, we got in our utility buggy and drove around to see our various neighbors, to see if they needed us to pick up any fuel, ice, food, or other supplies. Every last one of them said, "No, we're fine. In fact, we've got some extra _____ if you need any." (Some offered ice, some offered gas, etc.) Between the fishing & hunting and the backyard fruit & vegetable gardens, none of us lacked food even while those in town were fighting over the last loaf of bread in the store.

That's gun owners in a nutshell. We do for ourselves. And by being prepared to take care of ourselves, we're also in a position to help others in need. There was a lot of neighbor-helping-neighbor after Charley. Trees that needed to be chain-sawed & removed, houses that needed repairs.

We're realists. We know that we are our own first responders. Well-stocked first aid kit -- check. Extra food in the larder, especially during hurricane season -- check. Fire extinguisher -- check. We don't live our lives in fear of disaster, but we know that when disaster strikes, those who are prepared for it are the most likely to come through it either unscathed or with a minimum of damage. I'm not talking prepper-style living here; just the garden-variety Boy Scout attitude of "be prepared."

We know that when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. We know that if bad guys attack, the best way to stop them is with an application of equal or greater force. We know that thugs target the vulnerable and prey on the weak, and so we make sure that we are not vulnerable or weak.

We are not the people anyone needs to feel unsafe from. But we're also not the people who will be victims. We don't believe in being victims.

There, now. Do I really seem all that dangerous, just because I have guns? All of my neighbors have guns; all of them are great neighbors to have, especially in a disaster, not because of their guns but because of their mindset. Does my neighborhood really sound all that dangerous? It might be the safest neighborhood in Florida, and might well be one of the safest neighborhoods in the country.
Click to expand...

Yes, it does! It'll be the last place in the world I'll visit!
 
LinasK said:
Right, like owning an assault rifle for no good reason other than because you can!:doh:
Click to expand...

In all fairness it isn't "just because we can".

For some folks it was for "no good reason other than the fact you tried to tell us we can't".

Strength in numbers; there are a lot more AR owners now than there were in 2012, and that makes it much harder to ever ban them.
 
The whole "assault weapon" ban is one of the stupidest ideas ever.

The guns that the assault weapon banners want to ban are not "assault rifles" according to the military definition. That's why they get called "assault weapons" because they're not "assault rifles." In fact, they're nothing but medium-power semi-auto rifles that shoot medium-size cartridges that contain medium-size bullets.

They're no more dangerous or lethal than grandpa's deer rifle. Less dangerous, really. In some states it's illegal to hunt deer with them because they're not powerful enough.

People want to ban them because they're scary looking. But laws can't be written on that basis, so people make up crap like defining an assault weapon as having "2 or more of: barrel shroud, shoulder thing that goes up, pistol grip, bayonet lug." Some terribly anti-gun states prohibit any one of those. Some even define .22 rimfires as assault weapons if they can accept a magazine capable of holding more than 10 rounds. Or 7 rounds. Or have interchangeable magazines.

The very legal definition of what is an "assault weapon" has been revised over and over again. They will continue to revise that definition until all firearms are legally "assault weapons."

Gun owners need to oppose the ridiculous "assault weapon" bans or they will soon find that their single-shot .22 or their old-school revolver falls into that category.
 
sonjay said:
The whole "assault weapon" ban is one of the stupidest ideas ever.

The guns that the assault weapon banners want to ban are not "assault rifles" according to the military definition. That's why they get called "assault weapons" because they're not "assault rifles." In fact, they're nothing but medium-power semi-auto rifles that shoot medium-size cartridges that contain medium-size bullets.

They're no more dangerous or lethal than grandpa's deer rifle. Less dangerous, really. In some states it's illegal to hunt deer with them because they're not powerful enough.

People want to ban them because they're scary looking. But laws can't be written on that basis, so people make up crap like defining an assault weapon as having "2 or more of: barrel shroud, shoulder thing that goes up, pistol grip, bayonet lug." Some terribly anti-gun states prohibit any one of those. Some even define .22 rimfires as assault weapons if they can accept a magazine capable of holding more than 10 rounds. Or 7 rounds. Or have interchangeable magazines.

The very legal definition of what is an "assault weapon" has been revised over and over again. They will continue to revise that definition until all firearms are legally "assault weapons."

Gun owners need to oppose the ridiculous "assault weapon" bans or they will soon find that their single-shot .22 or their old-school revolver falls into that category.
Click to expand...
Very well written. ...
 
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