ID - 2 year boy accidentally shoots and kills mother in walmart in ths US

[Donjeta]

There are no definitive statistics on how many people are accidentally injured or killed by children and toddlers who get their hands on guns.

According to federal data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), an average of 62 children aged 14 and under died each year in unintentional shootings between 2007 and 2011.

But there is a caveat, explains Bob Anderson, chief of the mortality statistics branch with the CDC’s National Center for Health Statistics. Anderson said it was not uncommon to classify unintentional firearm deaths in which one person shoots another as a homicide, even if police reports indicate the shooting was an accident.

“What this means is that we underestimate accidental firearm deaths,” he said, adding: “We don’t really have a good assessment of the extent to which we underestimate these.”

There are studies that support the undercount, though they differ on the degree to which the figures are unreported. A 2013 New York Times investigation found that accidental shootings occurred roughly twice as often as the records indicate.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...mart-shooting-fatal-combination-children-guns

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...ho-walmart-shooting-son-concealed-gun/384147/

Yet it's unclear how often children accidentally shoot people. The Washington Post looked into the question earlier in 2014, after a 9-year-old at a shooting range in Arizona lost control of an Uzi and killed her instructor. Mark Berman found that no agency could give him a clear answer on the matter. While there are often media reports about such deaths, there's no comprehensive database. One can track the number of victims of accidental shootings younger than 18 with some confidence, but it's tougher to track them by who's pulling the trigger.

So, for example, the CDC was able to tell The Post that across 17 states for which they had data, in 2011, there were 11 deaths with a shooter younger than 14. That's something, but it's not especially useful for getting a national picture of anything. For example: Are those numbers from states with high or low gun-ownership rates? How about strict or loose gun-control laws? How many are under 10? What about incidents involving teenagers 14 to 18 years old?

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ntionally-shoot-and-kill-people-we-dont-know/

In addition to uncertainty regarding how many children accidentally shoot and kill people, the overall number of accidental gun deaths may also be incomplete. The CDC’s numbers, available through the National Center for Health Statistics, are collected from a mortality database that includes causes of death as determined by medical examiners, coroners and attending physicians. Yet this, again, is not foolproof. Medical examiners may say that a shooting death that appears to be unintentional was a homicide or say the cause cannot be determined, which is a separate category.

 

[SStarr33]

And I refuse to allow a gun in my house, I made my husband give up his gun when he moved in with me- I gave him an ultimatum- his gun or me, but he wouldn't force me to live with a gun, he chose me! I prefer a large dog and a baseball bat and knives for our home protection.

So when the guy with a gun (who killed your dog) is raping you or your husband, you or your husband do what? Try to hit him over the head with a bat or stab him?

No thanks.

 

[Caffeine]

I think the whole "special concealed carry purse" thing is kind of a joke. All purses have zippered pockets. There is nothing about the bag that makes it any different from stuffing a handgun in a zippered pocket of a Michael Kors bag.

As mentioned before the amount of force to pull a trigger on most guns is 5-10+ lbs. Of one the many articles for this story cited some pediatric study that most 2 year olds don't have that strength yet. So I guess it was a perfect storm so to speak.

I would be interested to find out what gun it was. So far I've only read a 9mm.

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[jjenny]

I think the whole "special concealed carry purse" thing is kind of a joke. All purses have zippered pockets. There is nothing about the bag that makes it any different from stuffing a handgun in a zippered pocket of a Michael Kors bag.

As mentioned before the amount of force to pull a trigger on most guns is 5-10+ lbs. Of one the many articles for this story cited some pediatric study that most 2 year olds don't have that strength yet. So I guess it was a perfect storm so to speak.

I would be interested to find out what gun it was. So far I've only read a 9mm.

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Yea, it's a purse with a zippered pocket. I don't know why anyone would think that having a gun in a pocket of purse would magically be safe because it's a "special" purse.

 

[jjenny]

I think the whole "special concealed carry purse" thing is kind of a joke. All purses have zippered pockets. There is nothing about the bag that makes it any different from stuffing a handgun in a zippered pocket of a Michael Kors bag.

As mentioned before the amount of force to pull a trigger on most guns is 5-10+ lbs. Of one the many articles for this story cited some pediatric study that most 2 year olds don't have that strength yet. So I guess it was a perfect storm so to speak.

I would be interested to find out what gun it was. So far I've only read a 9mm.

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This article has information on what kind of gun she had.

"Rutledge was a mother, wife, a chemical engineer and an outdoorswoman. However Tuesday her life was cut tragically short when her son got into her purse, found her 9mm Smith & Wesson M&P Shield semi-automatic pistol and fired a single shot, striking her in the head and killing her instantly in front of Veronica's three young nieces as well as other Wal-mart shoppers and employees."
http://www.kxly.com/news/north-idah...ponsible-gun-owner-by-friends-family/30482132

 

[tlcya]

Getting at weapons in their own home yes, but a kid accessing a concealed weapon in a Walmart store and causing a fatality??

That is unusual and it poses a risk to EVERYONE in the store, not just the mother. I can't think of another similar case (but I am sure if it has happened, child accesses concealed carry gun in a store and shoots) then others here will post about it.

The mother was HIGHLY irresponsible, if she survived I would have wanted to see her do prison time. This is the type of stupidity that causes problems for all OTHER gun owners.

Thank you. I agree with the BBM but don't know that I agree with the prison time thing.

ETA This was preventable. This was a foreseeable accident so I liken it to something like drinking while driving and being the ultimate cause of one's own very preventable death. Do I take any sort of pleasure in it? No. A family lost a valued member. Society lost a smart contributing member. Do I hope others who are carrying concealed in their handbags will examine that practice with a highly critical eye toward making sure their gun is in their control at all times? Absolutely!

 

[melissasmom]

So when the guy with a gun (who killed your dog) is raping you or your husband, you or your husband do what? Try to hit him over the head with a bat or stab him?

No thanks.

Really? This attitude is part of the rhetoric/culture of fear I hate.

Article about just ONE study done on safety/guns in the home:

http://www.minnpost.com/second-opinion/2012/12/health-risk-having-gun-home

Quote from article:
"If you have a gun, everybody in your home is more likely than your non-gun-owning neighbors and their families to die in a gun-related accident, suicide or homicide.

Furthermore, there is no credible evidence that having a gun in your house reduces your risk of being a victim of a crime. Nor does it reduce your risk of being injured during a home break-in."

If you want a gun in your home, that is your business, but people that don't want one are not more at risk from home invasion, etc. That is your opinion, not fact.

 

[Caffeine]

However Tuesday her life was cut tragically short when her son got into her purse, found her 9mm Smith & Wesson M&P Shield semi-automatic pistol and fired a single shot, striking her in the head and killing her instantly in front of Veronica's three young nieces as well as other Wal-mart shoppers and employees."
http://www.kxly.com/news/north-idah...ponsible-gun-owner-by-friends-family/30482132

Thank you.

The Shield is actually really common for concealed carry. 6.5 lb trigger pull. My friend has one. The trigger I thought felt "medium"...smooth but not too heavy and not too light. Surprised 2 year old fingers discharged it.

Most Shields have safety's... just recently they started making them without a safety.

Pulling the trigger is one thing, put I really doubt a 2 year could have manipulated the safety off. So this really could have been avoided....

 

[stormshine]

Thank you.

The Shield is actually really common for concealed carry. 6.5 lb trigger pull. My friend has one. The trigger I thought felt "medium"...smooth but not too heavy and not too light. Surprised 2 year old fingers discharged it.

Most Shields have safety's... just recently they started making them without a safety.

Pulling the trigger is one thing, put I really doubt a 2 year could have manipulated the safety off. So this really could have been avoided....

It would be pretty unlikely that a 2-year-old could manage a trigger safety as well. I wonder if it had a standard safety that wasn't on.

 

[Caffeine]

It would be pretty unlikely that a 2-year-old could manage a trigger safety as well. I wonder if it had a standard safety that wasn't on.

The Shield has a thumb safety. So with that on, the gun won't discharge. Otherwise you just pull the trigger and bang.

It's very likely the safety wasn't on. Most of them have safety's... they just started making them without them. If she bought the gun more than 9 months ago it's fairly certain it has a safety.

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[Mrs G Norris]

I think the child had fired a gun before .. JMO, but he didn't have a problem pulling the trigger and knew what to do, it is possible the safety was 'off', if not, how hard would it be to do that if the child had already been shown? This was a family who lived and breathed weapons by the sounds, so I can see them wanting to get the training started very young and bring their son up with the same 'lifestyle'.

While away from the lab, she and her husband, whom she married in 2009, spent time shooting guns. "She was just as comfortable at a camp ground or a gun range as she was in a classroom," close friend Sheri Sandow said in an interview. On Facebook, she showed an interest in the outdoors and the National Rifle Association, and followed Guns.com, a publication that reports on gun life.

"They carried one every day of their lives, and they shot extensively," Rutledge said. "They loved it. Odd as it may sound, we are gun people."

http://www.idahostatesman.com/2014/12/30/3566139/khq-woman-shot-at-wal-mart.html

 

[sonjay]

When you carry a firearm there isn't room for "mistakes". That's a choice all weapon owners and CCW permit holders make, to accept that extra level of responsibility.

Likewise, when you drive a car, there isn't room for mistakes.

When you have a pool, there isn't room for mistakes.

When you boil water on your stove, there isn't room for mistakes.

When you have bleach, anti-freeze, or other poisonous substances around your home, there isn't room for mistakes.

When you have prescription medications, there isn't room for mistakes.

There are many many activities and possessions in which there isn't room for mistakes. Sadly, all the laws in the world will never prevent all mistakes, because guess what? Every last one of us is human, and we all make mistakes, no matter how seriously we take our responsibilities.

 

[tlcya]

I sincerely hope this causes people to closely examine their own practices in regard to firearm safety and make changes if they see a possible pitfall they had not considered prior. This should be a teaching moment. Not a divisive one IMO. May this lady rest in peace and may death not be in vain. May others learn from it and may future loss of life be prevented because of it.

 

[sonjay]

I sincerely hope this causes people to closely examine their own practices in regard to firearm safety and make changes if they see a possible pitfall they had not considered prior. This should be a teaching moment. Not a divisive one IMO. May this lady rest in peace and may death not be in vain. May others learn from it and may future loss of life be prevented because of it.

I have one of those purses designed for purse carry. I used to carry occasionally that way, but I realized it was way too much trouble to keep my purse always on my person, and to always put my carry gun somewhere safe when I got home. I switched to on-body carry only quite a few years ago. I understand why some some women purse-carry, but I can't advocate that method. It's simply too easy to allow your attention to lapse for a moment.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I have one of those purses designed for purse carry. I used to carry occasionally that way, but I realized it was way too much trouble to keep my purse always on my person, and to always put my carry gun somewhere safe when I got home. I switched to on-body carry only quite a few years ago. I understand why some some women purse-carry, but I can't advocate that method. It's simply too easy to allow your attention to lapse for a moment.

Also wouldn't it be more difficult to access in a bag if you did need to use it quickly? Like I would imagine it would be .. same reason I tuck my mobile phone into a shoulder strap when I'm active, but need to take a call if one comes in.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Likewise, when you drive a car, there isn't room for mistakes.

When you have a pool, there isn't room for mistakes.

When you boil water on your stove, there isn't room for mistakes.

When you have bleach, anti-freeze, or other poisonous substances around your home, there isn't room for mistakes.

When you have prescription medications, there isn't room for mistakes.

There are many many activities and possessions in which there isn't room for mistakes. Sadly, all the laws in the world will never prevent all mistakes, because guess what? Every last one of us is human, and we all make mistakes, no matter how seriously we take our responsibilities.

Apples to oranges. Cars, pools, stoves, bleach, anti-freeze, and prescription medications are not manufactured for the purpose of harming or killing something.

 

[sonjay]

Also wouldn't it be more difficult to access if you did need to use it quickly? Like I would imagine it would be .. same reason I tuck my mobile phone into a shoulder strap when I'm active, but need to take a call if one comes in.

Actually, no, and that's what defines the "special design" of carry purses. The zipper to access the gun compartment is typically a vertical zipper at the rear of the bag. Back when I had a job that occasionally required me to go to a bad part of town at night (middle-of-the-night press checks at a printing company we used), I could unzip that compartment and stick my hand in there and actually have the gun in my hand while walking from my car to the building, without any part of the gun being visible. If need be, I could even fire the gun from inside that compartment. So really, it would have been faster to access had I actually needed it. Inside-the-waistband carry, which is what I do now, would be slower. The difference now is, once I'm inside among people I trust, I can set my purse down and not worry about my gun, even if there are young children around.

As a side note, a couple of years ago I accidentally left my purse sitting in the shopping cart in the parking lot at the grocery store. Fortunately, I live in a small town with mostly honest, law-abiding people. After I got home and realized my purse was missing, I raced back to the store, and some kind soul had already turned it in at the customer service desk. All my cash and credit cards were still there, even the cash that was readily visible in an open side compartment. That was after I stopped carrying in my purse, so no worries about a gun being in there.

 

[sonjay]

Apples to oranges. Cars, pools, stoves, bleach, anti-freeze and prescription medications are not manufactured for the express purpose of harming or killing something.

That's not a trump card.

Cars and pools accidentally kill more children than guns do, despite their intended purpose. So I would submit they are more dangerous than guns. I haven't looked up any stats on stoves, bleach, anti-freeze or prescription medicines, but I'd bet they also accidentally cause more harm than guns do.

Oh, and my guns must all be defective, then, because none of them has ever harmed or killed something.

 

[LinasK]

Apples to oranges. Cars, pools, stoves, bleach, anti-freeze, and prescription medications are not manufactured for the purpose of harming or killing something.

Bingo! It's the same argument pro-gun people always come up with. Cars were designed as a method of transportation, not as a lethal weapon, which guns were designed for!
Every time a child kills an adult with a gun, and their parents were "gun people",like the 9-year-old who killed her Uzi instructor, we have this same discussion. Totally preventable deaths. They called that one a tragic accident too!

 

[al66pine]

....From what I've read, this woman was a highly skilled and knowledgeable gun owner.
She was reportedly accustomed to carrying concealed on a regular basis. But therein lies the rub.
When a deadly weapon becomes as much a part of your day/ existence as your cell phone and wallet,
AND you deviate from body carry holster to "remote" carry purse, the scene is set, IMO, for complacency to override vigilance. I'm concerned that comfort/ complacency, along with distraction, is what produced the circumstances that lead to her 2 yo accessing and firing the weapon.
... distraction, complacency, and change in routine set in motion the conditions for this accident to occur.

. bbm sbm

K_Z ^Yes, yes, yes^.

Brings to mind discussions this past summer about Baby Deaths in Hot Cars, where you and others observed that
some (not all) of those deaths started w a break from daily routine, such as switching cars, change in daycare drop off or pick up, etc.
And that deviation from the norm was compounded by other factors, eventually leading to death.

First break in routine here seems to have bn gun-in-purse carry, instead of waist-holster-carry.
Other factors = on vacation schedule, not work schedule; 3 additional children accompanying mom & tot to store, etc.

Not excusing her action of leaving purse w gun in cart (if that's what happened),
but understanding how chain of events was set in motion by one 'teensy' mistake, w unrecoverable consequences.

As K_Z said, hoping others examine their gun handling practices w an eye toward enhancing safety, for them, household & everyone.