ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 18

[XtremeScorpio]

Why do you think they do not want to disclose? Hardly unlikely just because they want to keep their cards close to the chest.

Because it could be knowledge only the killer would know and one way for LE to know the person who mentions that or slips and makes a reference to it is indeed the true killer.


Don't forger, there are some nutjobs out there that will confess to something they didn't do for 15 minutes of fame or reasons only they know.

 

[Warwick7]

Folks are wondering why the 2nd floor victims were missing for a period of time. Perhaps they were avoiding the house for fear that somebody might come to exact revenge on one of them. Perhaps they thought it was safe to return after hours passed.

Interesting. I too want to know where they were and why LE skips over that period of time, even in their press releases.

 

[themonk]

Interesting. I too want to know where they were and why LE skips over that period of time, even in their press releases.

Has a reporter asked LE directly where they were between the party and home?

 

[OldCop]

yesterday's NewsNation

At 5 mins 30 secs
Entin says that LE have recently asked tons of people not to talk to the media ( includes sororities, the corner club etc)
( also Entin's followers still asking why the survivors haven't spoken to the media)

IMHO the majority of the people wanting more information are not trying to help LE nor are they doing it for personal safety. They are doing it to get the gossip, the rumors, the dirt, the sensationalism.
Many of the media outlets and the YTers cater to this mindset for the almighty clicks.

 

[Emerald15]

B Imo

I would go with A all the way. I think he has moved on, and looking for new victims. Thrill kill for him. I also think he used 2 knives.

 

[MesquiteO21]

Motive?
A) random thrill kill for a psychopath
B) felt spurned by one of the girls
C) bigoted toward Greek life
D) some sort of roommate dispute between any of the 5 girls and/or perhaps a BF
E) hit prompted by drug debt of one of the students or a parent
F) other?

I'd go with, from most to least likely, D B A C E F

another possibility is that it was originally a planned SA attack, not murder, on one of the girls on the 3rd floor and it went awry. So that would somewhat fit with B but not really from a previous rejection per se.

 

[Sandy007]

I would go with A all the way. I think he has moved on, and looking for new victims. Thrill kill for him. I also think he used 2 knives.

2 knives? That is interesting point of view. Would you elaborate?

 

[Birmingplumb]

Has LE said the dogs didn't pick up a trail? The threads moved fast and I probably missed this.

Just a few posts about a bloodhound asked--answered by some saying 1 dog on 1st or 2nd day observed. Zero followup on dog or dogs. I assumed "no trail" from that ...hope this helps...not much about the right or wrong dogs as in some other cases.

 

[sds71]

Police chief speaks about quadruple murder of University of Idaho students

Moscow Police Chief James Fry talks about the emotional toll these murders have taken on the community and the current state of the investigation.

www.goodmorningamerica.com

Eerie photos reveal inside the Idaho quadruple murder house

DailyMail.com pictures show the inside of the home in Moscow, Idaho, where four students were murdered.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[10ofRods]

That is a fair point. I guess it's important to distinguish with the term "Expertise". I viewed expertise as someone proficient in killing humans, i.e. serial killer, trained military, etc. The proficiency in taking large game does have some correllation as you mentioned.

Most hunters when they kill a big game animal get "buck fever". It's a body's real response to seeing and preparing to take game. Hands shake, heart races, adrenaline pumps. Hunters can combat these effects with Beta blockers, or anxiety meds, but the natural body response does still exist.Killing 1 person can happen in a "daze" so to speak. Immediately after, some of the adrenaline wears off and the person snaps back to reality and often panics. This panic usually leads to the killer fleeing, but I guess it could lead to "tying up loose ends". To kill one person and then move on to 3 additional without "snapping out of it", in my opinion, speaks to a highly motivated individual, fueled by hatred, scorn, fear, etc.

For killing humans, anyone that's doing it for the first time will experience similar responses described above, but they're often desensitized as it happens more and they learn to effectively rationalize and compartmentalize their emotions. I speak to this based on experiences with guys with whom I served in the military.

This is a great post (and distinction). The vast majority of people do experience that upsurge in adrenalin and related chemicals while hunting, we're designed that way.

There is a very small subset of people whose brains are different to the rest of us. The popular phrase is "cold-blooded killer." However, it's clear that some people do not react emotionally/with adrenalin to stimuli that would have the rest of us fighting, fleeing, fainting or out of our minds with panic.

I also agree that even one of the people whose brains are more hard-wired to allow them to proceed calmly in terrible situations would likely experience some degree of agitation/adrenalin during a murder, especially if it were their first. Killers like DeAngelo (EARONS/GoldenStateKiller) are rare. He was able to munch on his victim's food in the rape cases, and, perhaps, in at least one of his serial murders. I believe he worked his way up from that but had the ability to rape/murder and then appear calm to his family and, at one point, his LE co-workers. Rare.

I don't think this case is that kind, though. If you are right, then either this killer is a loner or was able to calm himself down in a steely manner very soon after the killings.

 

[OldCop]

As you say, the majority of the blood would be in the bedroom areas where the murders occurred. However, I think we should consider that there was no major struggle with any of the victims as far as we can tell (there's mention of defensive wounds, but that could be as simple as them waking up part way through and putting their hands out infront of them, and there certainly wasn't a loud fight or disturbance). So, I think its reasonable that if the victims were in bed when killed, the majority of the blood would have either pooled in the bed or spattered on the walls, ceiling, and probably the offender, but I don't think there would have been much on the floor. My point being that if there's very little blood on the floor then there's no blood for the suspect to step in and therefore no bloody shoe prints going through the house.

Even if his clothes were covered in blood it could be that its soaked into his clothes etc., and if he did something as simple as wipe the blade on his clothing before he left the bedrooms then, again, the knife isn't dripping blood everywhere. In my view its inconceivable that there was NO blood anywhere else in the house, but I certainly think it's perfectly plausible that there was very little.

In terms of leaving the house, maybe he had a bag/rucksack to stick the knife in? Maybe he ran across grassed areas/wooded areas (I've not studied the wider geography of the area so forgive me!), which would have meant the blood would have just soaked into the ground and gone unnoticed.

MOO

If he is unsophisticated but lucky, maybe he had on a cheap poncho from the dollar store and a couple of plastic grocery bags tied over his feet.
People who want to commit crimes like murder use true crimes series and places like WS to serve as tutorials on how to commit a crime without being caught. Every time there is a good solve on 48 hours or Dateline or one of the Discovery ID shows using new technology or a unique technique, I cringe because we just gave a would-be killer another tip on how to avoid leaving clues to their identity.

 

[flowershop]

I took a deeper dive on the forensics methods discussed in the interview with applied forensics expert (and distinguished scholar) Joseph Scott Morgan of Jacksonville State University. I will post the relevant links at the end of this message.

From what I gathered, it was Morgan's opinion that the CSI in this case had to perform a balancing act between collecting crime scene details and allowing the coroner to see the bodies. It was my interpretation that he found it unfortunate, from a determination of time of death standpoint, that the bodies could not be seen by the coroner sooner. Morgan explained that the formulas that the forensic experts rely upon such as algor mortis and rigor mortis have certain windows of time in which they can ideally be applied.

I read further into algor mortis which is the cooling of the body that occurs after death. There is a general graph that experts use in which there is initially a plateau period of a thirty minutes to two hours, where temperature of the body remains constant, and then there is a decline in temperature that takes place for an even longer period. The cooling rate is determined between the body's temperature and the temperature of the environment. Insulators like clothing and bed covers play a role as one can imagine. In one of the scientific papers it states that the cooling can take place from 10 to 16 hours. As I understand from my readings, the rate at which the cooling occurs is the indicator a forensic scientist uses to determine time of death.

If the death of one of the body occurred at 3 am. then after doing the math the algor mortis rate of cooling can be applied until somewhere between 1:30 pm and 7 pm. If I recall the coroner saw the bodies at 5 pm.

Here are links to my sources. I hope you found them to be as interesting as I have.

Algor mortis - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[Sandy007]

As you say, the majority of the blood would be in the bedroom areas where the murders occurred. However, I think we should consider that there was no major struggle with any of the victims as far as we can tell (there's mention of defensive wounds, but that could be as simple as them waking up part way through and putting their hands out infront of them, and there certainly wasn't a loud fight or disturbance). So, I think its reasonable that if the victims were in bed when killed, the majority of the blood would have either pooled in the bed or spattered on the walls, ceiling, and probably the offender, but I don't think there would have been much on the floor. My point being that if there's very little blood on the floor then there's no blood for the suspect to step in and therefore no bloody shoe prints going through the house.

Even if his clothes were covered in blood it could be that its soaked into his clothes etc., and if he did something as simple as wipe the blade on his clothing before he left the bedrooms then, again, the knife isn't dripping blood everywhere. In my view its inconceivable that there was NO blood anywhere else in the house, but I certainly think it's perfectly plausible that there was very little.

In terms of leaving the house, maybe he had a bag/rucksack to stick the knife in? Maybe he ran across grassed areas/wooded areas (I've not studied the wider geography of the area so forgive me!), which would have meant the blood would have just soaked into the ground and gone unnoticed.

MOO

Just to add that there are concrete/hard surfaces outside the kitchen sliding door ( rear patio) and at the front of the house (large parking lot for circa 15 cars ). The grass area if 5-6 yards off the kitchen sliding door, one must walk/run on the concrete patio for 5-6 yards in order to reach the grass. Lack of blood there and at the front parking lot is puzzling.

 

[Emerald15]

2 knives? That is interesting point of view. Would you elaborate?

Killer will have more control over victims. 1 stab to neck, and 1 to the chest. He has 4 victims, and 1 is male, so he knows a struggle might happen. Plus, if 1 knife is damaged, he will need a back up Knife.

 

[AuntTricia]

I would go with A all the way. I think he has moved on, and looking for new victims. Thrill kill for him. I also think he used 2 knives.

I do believe he would have had at least 2 knives. May be the same type/brand of knife, but I bet he had at least 2.

 

[Joshw2022]

If he is unsophisticated but lucky, maybe he had on a cheap poncho from the dollar store and a couple of plastic grocery bags tied over his feet.
People who want to commit crimes like murder use true crimes series and places like WS to serve as tutorials on how to commit a crime without being caught. Every time there is a good solve on 48 hours or Dateline or one of the Discovery ID shows using new technology or a unique technique, I cringe because we just gave a would-be killer another tip on how to avoid leaving clues to their identity.

Good point. I think it's worth noting that this guy clearly has some element of ability to plan and be mindful of leaving evidence. The police said he was 'sloppy' (this may be true or it may be a ploy to panic the killer and lure him out), but he had the common sense to take the weapon away with him, was calm enough to enter a property quietly and kill 4 people, and left without being seen. I think its definitely plausible that he took precautions like the ones you mention.

 

[hopewell]

If he is unsophisticated but lucky, maybe he had on a cheap poncho from the dollar store and a couple of plastic grocery bags tied over his feet.
People who want to commit crimes like murder use true crimes series and places like WS to serve as tutorials on how to commit a crime without being caught. Every time there is a good solve on 48 hours or Dateline or one of the Discovery ID shows using new technology or a unique technique, I cringe because we just gave a would-be killer another tip on how to avoid leaving clues to their identity.

Agree wholeheartedly.

Thank God that technology is making it increasingly more difficult to get away with things like this! The windows to this type of crime are shutting more and more everyday!

 

[Emerald15]

I do believe he would have had at least 2 knives. May be the same type/brand of knife, but I bet he had at least 2.

Also there really were no outside lights to illuminate inside house. How did killer get around in darkness? Did he have a headband with a light on it? Night goggles maybe? He has to be precise when entering each room to see location of victims, and how they are laying in bed.

 

[Joshw2022]

Just to add that there are concrete/hard surfaces outside the kitchen sliding door ( rear patio) and at the front of the house (large parking lot for circa 10 cars ). The grass area if 5-6 yards off the kitchen sliding door, one must walk/run on the concrete patio for 5-6 yards in order to reach the grass. Lack of blood there and at the front parking lot is puzzling.

Yeah it's definitely puzzling! As @OldCop said, the guy may well have taken precautions. Stick the knife in a bag, put a jacket on so anybody he came across wouldn't see his blood stained clothing, and its probably not difficult to avoid leaving bloodstains outside.

Do we know what the weather was like that night and the next morning? Any rain?

 

[SkylarSid]

Tasers leave marks. I would hope the LE would release this if factual because it adds a new element about what's important to be vigilant about.

I don't know if one was used or not, but that could be something LE would not release for the sake of the investigation. I just have a hard time wrapping my head around how 4 people could all be stabbed in bed especially when they were sleeping 2 to a bed.