ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 22

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The neighbor said on News Nation that they wouldn't take his and he had to go to the police station himself to ask them to take it to clear him.
different thing though?

LE had no grounds and J wouldn't have ever been on a priority list if SM people and MSM reporters hadn't kept on interviewing the guy
 
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If it was Kaylee who was the most hurt why did her dad say:


"...Targeted to me seems behaviour based. That's why I don't like it and it kind of pits the parents against each other, so, I don't like that. I just told some of the other parents today that 'if your daughter.. no ill will from me man'..."


Doesn't make sense why he would say that to Xana or Maddie's dad if it was Kaylee who was most affected.

ETA: Source.
 
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MOSCOW HOMICIDE UPDATE - DECEMBER 5, 2022

Part of the update:

"Using tips and leads, investigators have identified an incident involving Kaylee at a local business, which may have been the stalker reference she made to friends and family. In mid-October, two males were seen inside a local business; they parted ways, and one male appeared to follow Kaylee inside the business and as she exited to walk toward her car. The male turned away, and it did not appear he made any contact with her. Detectives contacted both males and learned the two were attempting to meet women at the business, this was corroborated through additional investigation. Based on available information, detectives believe this was an isolated incident and not an ongoing pattern of stalking. No evidence suggests the two males were involved in the murders. Investigators continue looking into information about Kaylee having a stalker. Information about a potential stalker or unusual occurrences should go through the Tip Line. "
Also from the release - DOG INFO

There have been numerous requests about the dog found at the residence on the
morning of November 13th
. Arriving officers entered the residence and found the
deceased victims. During the search of the home, a dog was found in a room where the
crimes had not been committed. Officers did not find any evidence on the dog and there
was no indication the animal had entered the crime scene. The dog was taken to Animal
Services and released to a responsible person.

While the dog was in the house when officers arrived, it has not been determined where
the dog was physically located when the murders took place.
 
If LE needed hoodie-guys DNA they could get it surreptitiously even if he has left the country.

If they need it, they will get it.

Most people misunderstand how the law works, how DNA profiling works, and how genealogical DNA searches actually work.

True, but would it be fruit of the poisonous tree? Our quite attuned verified contributor says that the courts have ruled that that kind of DNA isn't such poison, and I can see why courts would say that (depending on context), but I contend that LE cannot compel DNA from the person without a warrant or court order.

My opinion.
 
Post in thread 'ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 21'
ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 21

Great thoughts but I still don’t see how that singles K out as the target
  1. Yes, the killer went upstairs - but we don’t know as a fact that he didn’t go downstairs to try to kill the 1st floor occupants. (Their doors could have been locked) — IMO the investigators going to the house Sat night and checking out the 1st floor in the dark means they must’ve found something down there that ties the killer to the 1st floor.
  2. K was the target yet the killer didn’t know she slept on the 3rd floor? I find that unlikely because I’d think the killer would know as much as he could about her & finding where she slept wouldn’t be difficult based on stalking & SM
  3. K’s dad said her injuries were worse than M’s - We don’t know how E & X’s injuries compare to K’s - their injuries could have been similar or worse
MOO
Perhaps the killer killed all four roommates so that the real target could not be discerned.
 
Not in any database accessible by LE in general, was my point.

By definition that's not like fingerprints.

BTW, nearly all LE involved in criminal investigations have given up their DNA and they (and their unions) have concerns as well. The lid is on that information pretty tight - although of course under the right circumstances, a subpoena can be issued by a court.

I never said it was destroyed. Who wants to have to go the expense of having these officers' DNA analyzed again...and again...and again. Firemen, EMT's, consultants, crime scene photographers, etc, etc. also are asked to give samples - but they are not public.

The samples are very small and it's the computer-generated results of the very complex information that are kept in long term storage. Samples degrade.

But it is not "just like fingerprints." If the FBI has your fingerprints, you signed a form allowing them to collect them (or you were treated as a suspect, which I assume is not the case since it's your employment). So of course they can use it again (but local LE has no access to your DNA results through any national database!)

Your fingerprints - yes, those are in national databases (although mine are there because of the DMV system in my state - not because my employer also requested them - employer has them in a private database).

If we could actually use all the DNA collected by LE in this way, I think the courts would ban it. It doesn't happen. It's NOT like fingerprints! But maybe someday, it will be. I see no laws of this type in the offing at present.

I take you at your word and certainly respect your expertise, but I simply can't fathom the idea that prior-sequenced DNA isn't stored in a database and requisitions made regularly by LE to potentially identify suspects. Can it be used as evidence and at trial? I would say that depends on context, but it doesn't mean it isn't used to identify a perp and build a case. It would be silly not to use it as an investigative tool.

In any case, my initial point stands, which is not to volunteer identifying information to law enforcement.

My opinion.
 
Agree with you. You know the internet witch hunt is going to be after this kid now, and why? Because he went to a food truck at 1am?
i understand why people are suspcious and looking for various "clues" or "tells" but you are right, unless/until LE specifically names someone it is horrible to speculate. It can really ruin lives. Imagine someone who is innocent but deemed a POI by internet sleuths applying for a job in the future and the employer googles them and sees all the speculation that they killed 4 people? I mean yes, obviously the employer shouldn't judge or take that into consideration but does that mean they actually won't? not necessarily.
 
After reading the latest press release, I am going to say that LE is giving us way more information that Kaylee’s Dad is. For anyone criticizing him jeopardizing the investigation, I think some of the facts released today were not necessary for the public to hear.
 
If it was Kaylee who was the most hurt why did her dad say:


"...Targeted to me seems behaviour based. That's why I don't like it and it kind of pits the parents against each other, so, I don't like that. I just told some of the other parents today that 'if your daughter.. no ill will from me man'..."


Doesn't make sense why he would say that to Xana or Maddie's dad if it was Kaylee who most affected.

ETA: Source.
I thought the same thing as you at first but then it occurred to me perhaps the message he was trying to get across was “IF it had been your daughter” as in if it had been X or M that was speculated to be the target rather than K, he would not be casting blame on that girl in the way that he is perhaps feeling K is being blamed. I think that makes more sense in the context and his messaging has been a bit confusing overall thus far(which is completely understandable) so it would make sense to me if he was trying to say one thing and ended up conveying another. However, what he ACTUALLY said is exactly what you wrote, so take this with a grain of salt. Purely me trying to make it make sense and I could be totally wrong.
 
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My own speculation on this crime:

1. Coroner says they were sleeping at the time of their attacks (or at least prone and some did not react quickly). 1-2 may have awakened and brought their hands up in protection, giving the defensive wounds (apparently X and K may have defensive wounds.
2. One victim (K) is said by family to have different wounds than the others (I am assuming this means different to M's but also different to X and E). I also assume that the different injuries on K are enough for parents to assume she may have been the target.
3. I think the killer thought he had a closer relationship to K and/or the house than really existed. He had been there before, gotten obsessed with the occupants of the house, probably tried to befriend them - but in such af way that was so ordinary and so common in college life that he didn't stand out (which may be part of his anger).
4. Killer observed the house on more than one occasion, lives near campus and may or may not be a student. This may be a person who has been unsuccessful at university but is a hanger-on in the community, perhaps working at a fairly unskilled job at the university. He is still into the phase of "college life." But he should stand out a little by being slightly older. This does not narrow it down much.
5. Killer knew K was in town for the weekend.
6. Killer planned this crime with some care, but the crime scene is said to contain "lots of evidence" and to be "sloppy."
7. If killer was wearing ski mask, protective clothing and gloves, there won't be a lot of touch DNA. If killer cut himself in the process of the crime, then they will be able to suss that out if careful samples were taken.
8. Killer may have believed in paranoid fashion that four of the occupants of the house disliked him, were laughing at him, had rejected him, and that they gossiped about him.
9. If White Hoodie guy did indeed flee the country, I hope an Idaho judge allows police a search warrant to his now-abandoned dwelling place.

I keep wracking my brain about how exactly DNA from killer would have been left at the site. He could have dropped something that he used in his ordinary life. It's more likely he left footprints than DNA, unfortunately. He could have used something to wipe off the knife at some point and left it behind (rather a stupid error, speaks to a bit of panic for someone otherwise well prepared to keep his DNA to himself). If it's not true that he wore a ski mask, then hair or skin cells might be found (not the best type of sample, although if the follicle of the hair is preserved, that should provide good DNA evidence). It seems really unlikely that he didn't wear gloves, because then they'd have fingerprints.

If he was wearing a COVID style mask, perhaps he lost that at the scene (LE seems fairly confident they have strong leads).

I have heard nothing about LE requesting DNA samples from anyone in the neighborhood (one man volunteered), but if anyone knows of that, please advise (because then I'll be fairly certain they have some type of DNA from the perp).

Could the killer have touched the blade with his fingers before ever beginning this crime? Obviously, yes. Could his DNA therefore be found inside wounds? Possibly, but it's likely to be partial. It's possible that there's been dissection of the wounds upon autopsy and DNA not belonging to any victim was found. This would be unusual and perhaps even a first in the annals of criminology DNA use.

Still, the ability to separate out bits of DNA and study them has never been better. I'm hoping he left something behind, making it easy to get his DNA.

This is all IMO. Any scenario that requires the victims to be up and running around the house (as opposed to in or near their beds) is unacceptable to me.
 
If it was Kaylee who was the most hurt why did her dad say:


"...Targeted to me seems behaviour based. That's why I don't like it and it kind of pits the parents against each other, so, I don't like that. I just told some of the other parents today that 'if your daughter.. no ill will from me man'..."


Doesn't make sense why he would say that to Xana or Maddie's dad if it was Kaylee who was most affected.

ETA: Source.
Yes, it does make sense. If, for example, Kaylee was the primary victim and all the rest were collateral damage, it does pit the parents against each other. The other parents could say, what happened was due to YOUR child being targeted and my child would never have been killed if not for her. That is what he is saying. Then he went on to say that he told the other parents that should it turn out their child was the primary victim, he will not blame her or them for his daughter's death.
 
I do not know a single case where DNA from unconvicted persons are put in any database so that’s a red herring.

I have been working in forensic DNA consulting and study since 1987.
There was the recent case of the woman who provided DNA for a sexual assault case (she was the victim) and the DNA she provided was later used to link her to a property crime. I’m not familiar enough with why the CA laws allowed this or whether any other states allow it despite a federal law prohibiting it. She sued, the charges were dropped, and the law was modified to prohibit using DNA collected from victims to track those victims to crimes. However, I don’t know if that modification in CA extends to potential persons of interest who were not victimized or if any other states have local laws allowing retention of DNA provided by non-victims for purposes of ruling them out in cases such as this.

Source: A woman whose rape DNA led to her arrest sues the city of San Francisco
 
After reading the latest press release, I am going to say that LE is giving us way more information that Kaylee’s Dad is. For anyone criticizing him jeopardizing the investigation, I think some of the facts released today were not necessary for the public to hear.
I might suggest that LE is knows better than most what will jeopardize the investigation - but that is purely my opinion. They are the only ones that have all the pieces at this point. It is not rumor and it is not speculation.
 
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