ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 28

[Puzzles8]

But, we don’t have to have DNA as the definitive evidence that breaks the case open. What if we can identify our killer in a good old pre DNA way?

Question for you about the collection of DNA at a crime scene. The crime scenes have been described as quite bloody. I'd assume most of the blood (DNA) was that of the victims. If the killer did end up with a bleeding cut, how do you know where to start collecting samples? Or is the most likely place to find the killer's DNA on walls, light switches, door handles?
TIA

JMO

 

[OldCop]

Well @OldCop, your post earlier in the thread that you thought LE were close to getting the perp gave me hope. Thanks for destroying that hope

Well what if we identify our killer without the help of DNA; like the good old days?

 

[layer]

Basically, the perceived uneducated “townspeople” verses the equally distrusted and scrutinized ivory tower uni “gownspeople” community of said college town.

I guess anything's possible, but I don't see that kind of typical college town tension leading to a bunch of people getting butchered in their beds.

 

[mendicant]

this is way beyond jealousy, envy, heartbreak, being rejected

snip

Ah, but rejection and effrontery and embarrassment are in the eye of the beholder.

One thing it is definitely not beyond is money.

 

[crimesnooper]

there's no evidence that the four were not hanging out together between 1.45am return time and the time they all went to bed ( They must have gone to bed somewhere before 3am) K & M could've been texting JD while all four were in the same room

LE may have evidence of them all chatting and sharing a nightcap or snacks together, for example, 1.45am onwards but it hasn't been made public. They will be piecing that together.

Plus Kaylee is staying there so there is plenty of down time to talk, hang out but go to different social events in the evening. I don't think it means anything that they all split up that night.

But I would like to know if it was standard practice for Ethan to stay over as opposed to Xana staying at Ethan's?
Did the killer not except Ethan to be there? Or even Xana?
I'm still bothered that this was an impromptu trip for Kaylee. If someone had been casing the house, wouldn't the killer have observed that she's not living there?
So if the killer doesn't except Ethan or Xana to be there, or Kaylee are we talking about someone in Maddie's circle who had no idea what he was walking into exactly?.

 

[Balthazar]

Idaho murders: Police say they're getting 'good tips' 4 weeks in despite lack of reward and suspect

Four weeks after four University of Idaho students were killed in their beds, police say they are receiving "good tips and leads" despite the lack of a reward.

www.foxnews.com

Literally no new news.

 

[crimesnooper]

One thing I don't get...and yes it's about the dog! Lol they all are gone all evening. That dog has to go potty. Did any one of the four take the dog out when they got home and could the killer have slipped in the house undetected while that person was busy with Murphy and hid?

 

[Bluebythec]

I don't post a lot but I'm always lurking and this case has me intrigued. The following is pure speculation and MOO! What if the perpetrator is a member of this groups inner circle? His/her dna, fingerprints, hair and fibers from their home and car would all be expected to be there. IF they got a ride there, however, fibers from that car's seats, carpet etc would be foreign to the crime scene. Could that be the reason they're searching for the Elantra?

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I agree with you on all points you noted. With KG back in town for the weekend after being gone a few days, you would think the house would be party city. And all her friends would be there. Certainly not...unusually quiet! It seems to me there are pieces missing and that's okay, as long as LE is aware of them and investigating them. I don't like to read long posts and don't like to write them either, but there are so many loose ends and things that don't add up. I have seen no logic in these murders, and quite frankly, important conflicting evidence, to me, is being handled as well maybes!! And it may well be that LE has not shared pertinent info. And that's okay, but I'm ready to get off the wheel and hear some facts. Just my opinion, but LE has done an excellent job in shutting down rumors and inuendos. All SM, and the news sources are just repeating the same things over and over. This case may not be cold as far as LE is concerned, but the reporting and shared info gets colder everyday. MOO

I'm a college professor with 30+ years of observing student behavior. It is not at all surprising that kids in fraternities/sororities may go to weekend parties at frat houses rather than host their own. Two of the victims and one of the survivors came from the same sorority. KG was a member of a different sorority. I have not seen that the other survivor was in a sorority. My point here is that there are many reasons why they group was more likely to disperse to different places--local bars, frat parties, or other events--based on some basic principles of college kid social life:
1. Couples will go together to whatever events they are interested in, perhaps with others or in a group.
2. People who aren't dating anyone in particular may go out with a friend, or a larger group of friends. The decision about where to go might involve what frat is having a party, where other friends are meeting up, and whether they are looking to be just with friends, such as frat brothers or sorority sisters, or they are looking for a more mixed crowd.
3. Social media and text messaging guarantees that people can move around to meet up with people at different venues. And who they encounter along the way often influences decisions about "what's next."
4. People who don't want to drink until they are incapacitated may not want to be at or host a large group party.
5. Whatever bars or parties might have been in play earlier in the evening, food plays a role in the wee hours (all night diners, fast food places, food trucks) and often involves moving to a new location.
So I'm not surprised that the roommates weren't moving in a herd or that they didn't host a party.

 

[fviofrgn]

Do you guys think they know who done it at this point?

I’m of the opinion that they still have no idea who did it. It’s only a matter of time before they catch whoever did it, but it could take several months/years unfortunately.

 

[Deleted member 110058]

Question for you about the collection of DNA at a crime scene. The crime scenes have been described as quite bloody. I'd assume most of the blood (DNA) was that of the victims. If the killer did end up with a bleeding cut, how do you know where to start collecting samples? Or is the most likely place to find the killer's DNA on walls, light switches, door handles?
TIA

JMO

@10ofRods describes it in this post

ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 28

That’s a good question. Why wasn’t she hanging out with all her roommates instead of just one not really in a college house people split up all the time to do things. There was a dance fri so maybe the girls were already tired.

www.websleuths.com

 

[10ofRods]

Wow, all this time I didn't realize what a small enrollment this college had! I was thinking more my neck of the woods at UCONN and 30,000 +

Apparently, my figures were from last year - and this year, U of Idaho had an historic increase in enrollment. So the official tally is still way below 30,000 - it's 11,780. College officials are saying that 20-30% of the students have not come back after Thanksgiving (semester is now over for most students - maybe a couple more days of finals).

At any rate, if 30% are staying away, then they're back down to around 8,000 - which I'd say is their long term average over the last 10 years. 8-9,000 students might be still around. It'll be interesting to see what January brings. Not sure I could send my kids back until this crime is solved.

 

[WingsOverTX]

I wonder what their WHOLE social group knows and why LE keeps saying they’re focused on the investigation, not the activities.

They say it twice here:

Moscow Homicide Update - December 6, 2022

MOSCOW, Idaho – The Moscow Police Department is providing the following information to update the public on the known facts surrounding the four murders that occurred on November 13th in Moscow, Idaho.

www.ci.moscow.id.us

How are you interpreting that? It's meaning is ambiguous to me (purposely I would say).

 

[layer]

I don't post a lot but I'm always lurking and this case has me intrigued. The following is pure speculation and MOO! What if the perpetrator is a member of this groups inner circle? His/her dna, fingerprints, hair and fibers from their home and car would all be expected to be there. IF they got a ride there, however, fibers from that car's seats, carpet etc would be foreign to the crime scene. Could that be the reason they're searching for the Elantra?

Lurk less, post more!
If the DNA was found mixed in with the direct evidence (blood, under fingernails etc) , it would be harder to explain away as having been there before. I think fiber evidence is probably not the source of the search for the car. But I've been wrong before!

 

[10ofRods]

Lurk less, post more!
If the DNA was found mixed in with the direct evidence (blood, under fingernails etc) , it would be harder to explain away as having been there before. I think fiber evidence is probably not the source of the search for the car. But I've been wrong before!

That would be a twist, wouldn't it? If they're working backwards from fibers found at the crime scene that are consistent with car upholstery or carpet from a Hyundai. Said carpet fibers should in theory be on the perp's shoes, if he was in that car.

That would explain why no plates seen. They find the fibers, then they see some neighborhood cams that show the same car cruising by at around 3-4 am. I can see why they'd call that critical.

I have a strong feeling that there are also possible POI's from phone and social media analysis, possibly tied to just one victim (and I'm not sure it's KG, btw).

 

[human]

For those wonder DNA turn around timeframe, found this, it's from 2010 so obviously things may have changed, but says ID takes about 45-60 days on a "no suspect, rush".

https://www.cga.ct.gov/2010/rpt/2010-R-0086.htm#:~:text=For%20example%2C%20the%20turnaround%20time,Public%20Safety%20Forensic%20Science%20Laboratory).

For those wonder DNA turn around timeframe, found this, it's from 2010 so obviously things may have changed, but says ID takes about 45-60 days on a "no suspect, rush".

https://www.cga.ct.gov/2010/rpt/2010-R-0086.htm#:~:text=For%20example%2C%20the%20turnaround%20time,Public%20Safety%20Forensic%20Science%20Laboratory).

90 mins

Rapid DNA Solutions for Law Enforcement | Thermo Fisher Scientific - US

The Applied Biosystems RapidHIT ID System enables law enforcement to use DNA information to steer investigations in real time. With minimal training, law enforcement can process DNA samples at the station or in the field in only 90 minutes.

www.thermofisher.com

 

[Arkay]

Basically, the perceived uneducated “townspeople” verses the equally distrusted and scrutinized ivory tower uni “gownspeople” community of said college town. Opposite ends of a doubled edged sword and spectrum. I live in such a location presently. It’s almost a “can’t live with ‘em, can’t live without ‘em” environment. Breeds discontent, resentment, and a very GENUINE sense of bitterness towards elitism. This story is as old as time.

I agree, it's a story as old as time, but I think there are several permutations of this story.

My experience is different. As a NYC teacher I have the requisite B.A. and M.A. in my field. Of course, NYC is not a small college town, and everyone here is intermingled without regard to the level of education. It's a unique paradigm that does not create a sharp distinction in daily life.

However, I have family members who attended Penn State. The entire town of State College has, IMO, a very symbiotic relationship to Penn State University.
The businesses and landlords are quite dependent on the student body (which is enormous, unlike the University of Idaho). The college is the employer and residence for many thousands on staff. The town of State College is its own entity, with its own zip code, and is thoroughly a "company town."

That of course does not preclude a singular individual going haywire, but as a generalization there is no "town vs. gown" dynamic there.

IMO each college town likely has its own particular relationship with its college; but again, it only takes one individual with a disordered mind to wreak havoc.

Jmo

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Yeah I'm not buying it. They've had over a month and massive resources available. The DNA is surely processed by now, and it's either inconclusive or there is no match. The police may have some theories, but the trail has gone cold and they are hoping for a miracle.

It might be useful for those interested in this case to take a look at another recent case, the Piketon, Ohio mass murders, in which it took over two years to analyze the forensics and collect enough evidence to arrest the perpetrators. In a bloody massacre of 8 people at 4 sites, no DNA was left other than that of the victims. This case had more crime scene sites, but probably less DNA since these were private homes, not a university house where lots of young people come and go. It's worth a look at the YouTube trial testimony of investigators in the Pike County case to learn how meticulous and careful investigators have to be to get a conviction.

Here is what an experienced investigator says about the Idaho case:

I know it’s frustrating to people, but murder investigations are not a spectator event,” said Howard Ryan, a former commander of a crime scene unit in the New Jersey State Police who is now a consultant for law enforcement. “People are influenced by TV shows. They believe that these events and processing and work happens at a much more rapid pace and results are obtained much quicker than they really are.” {snipped]

“You can’t assume each drop of blood is from the same person,” said David Carter, a professor of criminal justice at Michigan State University and former Kansas City, Missouri, police officer who specializes in homicide investigations and intelligence. “You have to sample them all and analyze them all to see if they belong to victims or a suspect. It’s very time intensive. They’re trying to find hairs, footprints from shoes, fingerprints — anything like that.”

Authorities in Idaho could be waiting on the outcomes of forensic analyses, which can take weeks or months to complete, he said. Why untangling DNA in the Idaho killings is a 'daunting task' for investigators

Weeks or months. And remember, the perpetrator here may not have DNA in CODIS or when they run it, there may be a hit to other crimes, which LE might prefer to keep quiet until the arrest. What matters here is finding this killer and preventing him from attacking again, which might be easier if he doesn't know what LE knows. Hence not blabbing everything LE knows to the public.

 

[10ofRods]

90 mins

Rapid DNA Solutions for Law Enforcement | Thermo Fisher Scientific - US

The Applied Biosystems RapidHIT ID System enables law enforcement to use DNA information to steer investigations in real time. With minimal training, law enforcement can process DNA samples at the station or in the field in only 90 minutes.

www.thermofisher.com

Those are some great links! According to those charts, it would 45-60 days for the initial biologic analysis (assessing if it's human blood, looking at the DNA in that blood, looking at other factors in the blood, etc. Then, if a DNA sample can be presented to the DNA lab, it's another 45-60 days for analysis (in Idaho).

So four months if there's a backlog (and those links hint strongly that backlogs occur). Sex crime kits go directly to the DNA queue, of course. But mixed swabs of more than one person's blood? That's going to take 3-4 months at least, maybe additional tests after the first ones. Complex stuff.

The typical "DNA test" is a swab or a clear sample, not a tube of various things (that's what gets subjected to biological analysis - which would also divide samples into organic and inorganic components - such as fibers or metals).

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I mean expedited because they've the FBI helping them. I'm assuming this also means forensics.

Most homicides are handled in state.

I think the case is cold. Take a break from this forum and anywhere else you're following the case as there's no new info and won't be.

It's not cold if there are local detective and FBI agents and forensics investigators are...investigating.

I always assume government agencies like FBI, CIA, NSA can just grab this info and get the warrant after. Maybe I'm just cynical.

<modsnip>

If they don't get a warrant, LE can't use the information in court, which is the whole point of investigating: find, charge and convict the killer(s).