ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 39

[Booksleuth]

@fastoys in the last thread, you mentioned Sand road and heading NW.
There are no cameras on the ID or WA portion.

Idaho 511 Travel Information

https://wsdot.com/travel/real-time/cameras

one of my previous posts has more map info in it, but these links will get you to all of the road cameras.

If I were charting this killer's route, I'd have parked at the arboretum, walked in the dark, done what I came to do, gone back to arboretum, taken my car, and headed out on Palouse NW which turns into Sandy, and with 8 hours lead time, I'd have plenty of time to get cleaned up, dump the borrowed white car near Pullman, grab my real ride, and head out with WSU football fans leaving from the weekend visit. That's all obvs JMO IMO

My other option would have been Troy area and the Latah trail.

Yes. Exactly that.

 

[HopeValleyDevil]

I'm sure there probably is but I doubt it would make them whole for razing the building and donating the property as was suggested earlier. My point was that it was a little unfair to suggest the owner "ought" to do a certain thing with their property.

Donating was never an option

I did ponder the company owned house be a target?

Did the perpetrator have a personal vendetta against the company that owns the rental property??? Was financial injury the motive?

All in my opinion only

 

[jjleroche]

Remember the Savopoulos case, four murdered in DC including a young boy, perp set fire to house to destroy evidence. The house was bought way under price, address changed, razed, then bought again with plans to rebuild that fell apart. Newest owner has it on the market again.

DC mansion where 4 people were murdered put on the market for $3.25M

The five-bedroom, seven-bath brick mansion was the site of a shocking quadruple homicide in May targeting Savvas Savoupoulos, his wife, 10-year-old son and their housekeeper.

www.dailymail.co.uk

2800 32nd St NW, Washington, DC 20008 | MLS #DCDC2146602 | Zillow

This 5730 square feet Single Family home has 6 bedrooms and 6 bathrooms. It is located at 2800 32nd St NW, Washington, DC.

www.zillow.com

Regarding what happens about the house - surely it would be appropriate in this instance for the City to purchase the property, raze the house, and create a suitable reflective park in memory of the vistims,a s previously suggested. The landlord shouldn't be expected to donate/contribute.
I certainly woudln't want to live in this house, since this was the scene of such a vile crime. Whether or not any tenants, would want to live there, I think it's important for an appropriate and dignified memorial to be created in memory of the victims at that site. In my opinion, It just seems so wrong for this house to continue to be there - so undignified, and a place which ghouls would visit. JMO

 

[Palinsmom]

My opinion:

LE has individual/s in mind, they may not officially announce it but I feel confident that they do.

Maybe not at the start, but over the last several weeks LE has been very reserved in what they say. That leaves me to think that anything they share is for a specific purpose and that they have discussed and there is specific goal they are hoping to achieve by sharing such information.

This leads in to my mental question posted out loud via typing here.

Is it possible that individual/s that might be in the cluster of people perhaps being monitored have ties or connections to perhaps a professional cleaning business? Like I said only speculation and opinion on my part.

Just thinking of other outside of the box ideas.

 

[Arkay]

Betsy Aardsma 1969. Stabbed to death in the Penn State LIBRARY. Murdered on school property. No arrests ever.

Wow, listening to the Betsy Aardsman podcast now. Never even heard of it until your mention.

I don't want to "rank" crimes, but I will say that Betsy Aardsma and JonBenét Ramsey were crimes with one physical victim. There may have been many crimes by the same perpetrator and possibly crimes against more than one victim but the fact that the Idaho murders had 4 victims as part of one crime is significant.

What other crimes involving 3+ victims remain unsolved? Stabbings specifically. (Not to diminish crimes with 2 victims except the motive in that is too easily a suspected lover's angle or collateral.)

I read a book about this case when my niece was attending Penn State and told me about this story.

It was called Murder in the Stacks.


Other than it taking place on a college campus, I agree that it differs significantly from the Moscow murders. Unfortunately, many murders go unsolved. The mass murder aspect of this makes this especially chilling, and complicates investigating the motive, since no one is certain of who exactly was meant to be the victim/victims.

IMO


I would go with Jack the Ripper for one of the longest unsolved stabbing mysteries, but he was a serial killer, not a mass murderer. More than three victims, but not all at once, so I don't think it fits your criteria.

 

[Zella]

There are examples where the property where a horific crime occured was razed. For example Dahmer's apartment building was purchased by a non-profit affiliated with Marquette University and torn down. The building wasnt far from the University and they were in the middle of efforts to improve the neighborhoods around them.

The Jeffrey Macdonald house was also razed. My dad was stationed at Ft Bragg when Fatal Vision came out, and he told me they had to have MPs stationed on that road because of all the curious people trying to drive by the house.

I think in this particular case the owner will probably try to rent it out again eventually, especially due to its proximity to the campus and the fact it was probably purchased specifically for renting to students. What may be less predictable is the student body reaction. I could see the current crop of students being way too freaked out, but maybe not so much for newer students. Even the Watts family home finally recently sold.

MOO

 

[KPO]

Hi everyone, I’ve been busily trying to catch up, by I just recalled a terrible murder that might fit the bill that we were looking for that was being discussed earlier. I hope this post will be ok.
Back in 2009 my dtr was attending Lo gwood College in VA and there was an off campus murder of a professor and her family by stabbing, see below.

Farmville murders - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I would have to read further into the details, but the killer and at least one of the victims had an interest in horrorcore and that is how they met years before the crime. I'm not familiar with that "genre" of music but I can't help but have grave concern for anyone interested in rapping about chopping people up or anyone interested in listening to that. (Granted, I'm not a fan of the music my teens listen to these days either)

One thing that this crime and many others (serial/mass killers) have is a "mother" link. Plenty of cases also have a "father" link and many other links...and I don't know the statistics, but it seems like in murders of women, the role of the mother is often brought into the case as an important factor. Toxic relationships, abusive upbringing, neglect, abandonment, etc.

 

[NuttMegg]

Regarding what happens about the house - surely it would be appropriate in this instance for the City to purchase the property, raze the house, and create a suitable reflective park in memory of the vistims,a s previously suggested. The landlord shouldn't be expected to donate/contribute.
I certainly woudln't want to live in this house, since this was the scene of such a vile crime. Whether or not any tenants, would want to live there, I think it's important for an appropriate and dignified memorial to be created in memory of the victims at that site. In my opinion, It just seems so wrong for this house to continue to be there - so undignified, and a place which ghouls would visit. JMO

The Watts home sold recently, to a young family. Then in Aruba for a few years (maybe still?) there were Natalee Holloway tours. I could understand either way. Renovate it or redecorate, I guess I'd lean that way. Ppl will probably feel differently if the case is never solved, no understanding why it was chosen.

 

[KPO]

I read a book about this case when my niece was attending Penn State and told me about this story.

It was called Murder in the Stacks.


Other than it taking place on a college campus, I agree that it differs significantly from the Moscow murders. Unfortunately, many murders go unsolved. The mass murder aspect of this makes this especially chilling, and complicates investigating the motive, since no one is certain of who exactly was meant to be the victim/victims.

IMO


I would go with Jack the Ripper for one of the longest unsolved stabbing mysteries, but he was a serial killer, not a mass murderer. More than three victims, but not all at once, so I don't think it fits your criteria.

I'm going to listen to the Podcast and research the case. My parents both went to Penn State back in the early 70's/somewhere around that time/don't make me do math this late. They're both old with the memory of a goldfish so I doubt this will ring a bell but I'll still ask. If they can't remember my first words or first steps (LOL), but they remember this case, that will definitely interest me.

 

[Jawds78]

The Jeffrey Macdonald house was also razed. My dad was stationed at Ft Bragg when Fatal Vision came out, and he told me they had to have MPs stationed on that road because of all the curious people trying to drive by the house.

I think in this particular case the owner will probably try to rent it out again eventually, especially due to its proximity to the campus and the fact it was probably purchased specifically for renting to students. What may be less predictable is the student body reaction. I could see the current crop of students being way too freaked out, but maybe not so much for newer students. Even the Watts family home finally recently sold.

MOO

Just to add my 2, we really don't know if the owner can financially just raze it. It might be a case of want vs need. It would be awesome if they were able to do something thoughtful though, 'cause this is a rough one. MOO

 

[scottr]

I'm skeptical about this photo. Anything can be altered and, interestingly, the Moscow PD press release from 12/27 hints at the possibility:

• There have been numerous inquiries from members of the public and media to verify digital media published online. Any picture or video provided through the official public records request process is authentic. However, once a record is released, we can no longer verify its authenticity as we do not know if anything has been altered. Detectives are aware of videos distributed by local businesses.

I'm not skeptical about the photo being altered. I think LE took the same stance after that YouTube video with the bodycam footage and overlay image of the car...

But as far as the CC photo, I did find it odd that like everyone in the photo had jackets and coats on almost as if they were all outside. Not sure why... But found it strange. Probably nothing.

 

[Ozoner]

Watching this update from the police chief today gives me hope, he looks relieved . . ..

<modsnip>
Seriously, though, I'm not sure I'd read too much into his demeanor because we don't really know what his baseline is. That might be par for the course for him.

 

[jumpingjackflash]

Wow, listening to the Betsy Aardsman podcast now. Never even heard of it until your mention.

I don't want to "rank" crimes, but I will say that Betsy Aardsma and JonBenét Ramsey were crimes with one physical victim. There may have been many crimes by the same perpetrator and possibly crimes against more than one victim but the fact that the Idaho murders had 4 victims as part of one crime is significant.

What other crimes involving 3+ victims remain unsolved? Stabbings specifically. (Not to diminish crimes with 2 victims except the motive in that is too easily a suspected lover's angle or collateral.)

Here's all I could find matching the 3+ victim, unsolved stabbing criterion:

Chen family killing (the family of four was stabbed/bludgeoned to death by an unknown person/s)

What I learned just now this is that there are a lot of stabbings in family contexts! Below is just a small sample, and 2 of these 3 cases occurred THIS MONTH. But it seems far fewer stabbings are committed by someone other than a member of the same family unit as the victims [edited for clarity].

Buffalo Grove family killing (five family members were stabbed to death in a suspected murder-suicide)

Broken Arrow killings (parents and three children stabbed to death in familicide)

Victoria, Texas triple stabbing (one death, two other injuries -- more family violence)

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Stabbing -- to some, esp those who haven't been stabbed, it sounds pretty easy. Knife in, knife out, under covers, killer barely sees blood, and in, out, in, out, in out, and at some point, done. But it's not quite like that, not like stabbing an inanimate stuffed object.

For one thing, IME and other sources, muscles tighten around the knife or other sharp instrument, and IME, no bone was hit, thank goodness. In my case, the first thing I felt was fluid running out. And shock. I definitely felt that. And I'll put an imo and ime with that, but really, irl that's what I felt. So when I read some of the descriptions about how it was probably easy, I thought I should add a little context and experience.

For those who haven't had the experience, I guess it might be possible to approximate the effort the killer would have been undertaking by stabbing a big, raw roast with a bone in it. IDK if that would work, though, because the animal would be dead, so the muscle wouldn't tighten, and there's only going to be a little blood. And definitely there wouldn't be a look of horror in the eyes of the raw meat, like there probably was for the victims, even if only or a minute or two. No muffled screams from the dead meat, no defensive response, regardless of how faint. The victims in idaho probably experienced all that, so maybe a few steps up in difficulty from stabbing a pillow or something other than a living human or nonhuman. JMO but also IME - something to think about. There are lots of links out there, but this one is safe to share. Stabbing - Wikipedia

Also, maybe there was no blood, but lots of media reports say it was a bloody mess. IDK but IMO if SG is to believed and KG was cut badly, there might have been blood imo jmo. here's one I hadn't seen:

Idaho killer a 'young man' who is 'comfortable' with blood: FBI profiler

A legendary FBI profiler says the killer who butchered four University of Idaho students is a "younger" man who is "comfortable with blood."

torontosun.com

some info here that I hadn't seen:

Investigators untangling the Idaho student slayings face a ‘daunting task’: Parsing the DNA

Victims' families and the public are growing impatient with police investigating the University of Idaho stabbings. But analyzing evidence could take weeks.

www.nbcnews.com

I thought this was an interesting quote that aligns with my theory. IMO this is likely:

The person who murdered four University of Idaho students last month is "likely to be within a 3-hour distance" from the murder scene in Moscow, according to a former FBI Special Agent. Jonathan Gilliam told Dr Phil McGraw the implications of a quadruple murder suggest the perpetrator would be "exhausted" after committing the crime and fled close by to avoid being detected when the sun rose.

from here: Idaho murder suspect 'likely within 3-hour distance' of murder scene

So if this Case goes unsolved with no arrest where do you think it ranks with other unsolved murder mysteries?

oh, I think it will be solved, but only after previous cases are linked or future cases reveal. that's JMO & only IMO.

his adrenaline would have been sky high and heart beating a mile a minute as he was 'running' thru the house.

Not necessarily IMO JMO. Probably true if it's for a first-time frat boy gone wild but if it's for someone who lived for this, planned it, has some previous experience, it might just be more like a cool high. IMO JMO IDK. I can't even eat meat, but imo jmo depending on the killer's psychological bent, he might remain cool and focused or feel some sort of omnipotence or orgasmic rush. It really depends imo on who this guy is. and again jmo imo.

we had nights that were reserved for going to the bars

Ditto. I went to a good school,I had good grades, and I had a difficult major. But I still had time to date and go out a bit on W, Th, F and Sat. Sunday afternoons maybe. but definitely home on Mondays and Tuesdays. Friday afternoon was a bar similar to the Corner Club but more well-known. Friday night, I stayed home unless it was Friday before a game, then game party or event. Saturday was game day, date night or go out with girlfriends night, if we weren't dating anyone. Or if we were having some relationship drama. Sometimes a party on Saturday, if it was a fraternity or couples thing. Sunday was lunch and movie with the girl gang.

It's funny that all these years later, I still remember my college social calendar, but I bore everyone with this to make a point: as party central as the house might have been, it's pretty normal imo & ime, and it was probably much more predictable than you'd think. And from my grandfather on down, fraternities happened, and none of them would have ever lied for a brother or covered up for a killer. just not. This is, of course, IMO AND IME only.

edited to add after I saw the wow face: yes, I was stabbed, but it was an accident. turns out, that even so, it's still a stabbing, and the doctor was surprised I was so calm (shock), and I explained that it was an accident, and she said BUT YOU WERE STILL STABBED! She was right, of course, and after the shock wore off, it freaked me out, still does even now, and I can tell you it hurts, the pulling out from the muscle is creepy scary, and I think those who minimize it because covers or sleep don't really know what they're talking about, so that's why I had to speak up. imo jmo ime.

 

[Aquarian]

I would have to read further into the details, but the killer and at least one of the victims had an interest in horrorcore and that is how they met years before the crime. I'm not familiar with that "genre" of music but I can't help but have grave concern for anyone interested in rapping about chopping people up or anyone interested in listening to that. (Granted, I'm not a fan of the music my teens listen to these days either)

One thing that this crime and many others (serial/mass killers) have is a "mother" link. Plenty of cases also have a "father" link and many other links...and I don't know the statistics, but it seems like in murders of women, the role of the mother is often brought into the case as an important factor. Toxic relationships, abusive upbringing, neglect, abandonment, etc.

I agree with you on the mother link, I too have seen that too often. What I recall of this crime is that this guy met the dtr on line and Mom allowed him to come and visit. This was local news of Longwood at the time., so MOO. But, I dont know who you can point to re the music. Must be one of those chicken or the egg situation s really.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yes. Exactly that.

which one do you like? east or west?

 

[SophieRose]

Wow, listening to the Betsy Aardsman podcast now. Never even heard of it until your mention.

I don't want to "rank" crimes, but I will say that Betsy Aardsma and JonBenét Ramsey were crimes with one physical victim. There may have been many crimes by the same perpetrator and possibly crimes against more than one victim but the fact that the Idaho murders had 4 victims as part of one crime is significant.

What other crimes involving 3+ victims remain unsolved? Stabbings specifically. (Not to diminish crimes with 2 victims except the motive in that is too easily a suspected lover's angle or collateral.)

Article on why police don't want to give up everything they have on a crime.

Darden family murders in Illinois. Not stabbed but mother and child (mother pregnant, 2nd child born) bludgeoned, father shot. Serial killer Tommy Lynn Sells confessed, family not sure. Read story beyond quote because he may give evidence he did it.

Gruesome murder of an Illinois family remains unsolved as the main suspect is executed

Thirty detectives worked the case full time. They interviewed more than 100 people. They tracked down more than 1,000 leads, but came up empty. Nearly 150 evidentiary items were labeled.

www.kmov.com

But that was just the beginning for Sells. He claimed he killed up to 70 people throughout the country. He said his nickname was “Coast to Coast.” And authorities found up to two dozen of his claims to be accurate, although he was known to embellish his accounts. He was indeed a serial killer, but later admitted to fabricating some of his stories. But soon, agencies from every state wanted to know if Sells had ever visited their fine towns, in hopes of clearing cold cases from the books.

Had he ever been to Illinois? Sure. Did he know anything about the Ina murders, and the Dardeen family?

Then Tommy Lynn Sells started singing, with a tale of meeting Keith at a truck stop, then changing the story to a pool hall, claiming Keith invited him to his house for dinner and a sexual rendezvous with both Dardeens. When police pressed for details never made public about the murders, Sells answered incorrectly. Then he blurted out the correct responses.

Police felt he had the answers to all the details that had already been made public, but was guessing at the ones that hadn’t been. Sells offered to go to Ina, and walk police through the crime scene. But he was already on death row in Texas, and state laws forbid those prisoners from being removed.

Dardeen family homicides - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

However, he was never charged since prison authorities there would not let him leave the state to assist police in Southern Illinois with their investigation, and they as well as the Dardeen family have doubts about his account of the killings. The case is otherwise cold.

 

[KPO]

Here's all I could find matching the 3+ victim, unsolved stabbing criterion:

Chen family killing (the family of four was stabbed/bludgeoned to death by an unknown person/s)

What I learned just now this is that there are a lot of stabbings in family contexts! Below is just a small sample, and 2 of these 3 cases occurred THIS MONTH. But it seems far fewer stabbings are committed by someone other than a member of the same family unit as the victims [edited for clarity].

Buffalo Grove family killing (five family members were stabbed to death in a suspected murder-suicide)

Broken Arrow killings (parents and three children stabbed to death in familicide)

Victoria, Texas triple stabbing (one death, two other injuries -- more family violence)

Going to read up on all of these. What about where the victims are not related? The fact that there were multiple victims in the Idaho murders is significant but even more so is the fact that they were not related (genetically). That is a huge obstacle in narrowing down motive and POI.

 

[CSIDreamer]

Regarding what happens about the house - surely it would be appropriate in this instance for the City to purchase the property, raze the house, and create a suitable reflective park in memory of the vistims,a s previously suggested. The landlord shouldn't be expected to donate/contribute.
I certainly woudln't want to live in this house, since this was the scene of such a vile crime. Whether or not any tenants, would want to live there, I think it's important for an appropriate and dignified memorial to be created in memory of the victims at that site. In my opinion, It just seems so wrong for this house to continue to be there - so undignified, and a place which ghouls would visit. JMO

I'm curious because I know of historical memorials and also more current ones. The most recent one is a memorial pocket park. Far removed from the place where the officer (who the park is named for) perished. How do you think the owner should be compensated? And at fair market value? JMHO

 

[DizzyB]

I get it, a murder house is different than a home where a natural death occurred. But people continue to live in homes where they have watched a loved one pass, and the pain can be immense. I had trouble sitting in the living room where my parent’s hospital bed resided at the end. It took a while, but I will sit there with family tomorrow and celebrate the holidays. When people are murdered outdoors, we don’t close parks or spaces. We don’t dig up streets where horrific accidents-some intentional-occur. There is a street that I can never drive down because of a devastating tragedy in my life. A funeral home I cannot set foot in. But those are my issues. Houses are objects. They are not at fault, and one can get past them. We should not judge.