ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #1

[IHAVENOCLUE]

Yes. It was in at least one article that they we're asked to stay nearby.

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thank you! I thought I had heard/read that...

But... I couldn't find the link to THAT, either...:sigh:

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

I have stated in previous posts that there is an individual - David Paulides (who formally worked in some capacity in law enforcement) - who has written a series of books called Missing-411. In these books, he recounts hundreds of unsolved missing persons cases of children (some Deorr's age) and adults who have gone missing in National Parks (and nearby wilderness areas) in the U.S., Canada, and in some other locations around the world… all under similar circumstances. After careful examination of these disappearances, he has concluded that people are disappearing from North America's National Parks and Forests at a rate that few people realize, and all under very similar circumstances. However, from what I have read and heard Paulides say in online or radio interviews, he does not believe those disappearances are the work of a serial killer/killers - and at this point he can only postulate as to what may be happening. However, in his books he tries to just give the facts about each disappearance and talk about the similarities and patterns without going too much into what he believes may be happening.

One of the reasons he discounts a serial killer(s) is the remoteness of the locations where these children (and adults) go missing as well as the randomness of the events.

As far as dates, lists and details of such disappearances - it has taken Paulides something like 6 years to compile the information as the National Park Service (at least in the US) maintains there is no central list of database of such disappearances - and there have been thousands - and that each park keeps its own list.

Paulides has created a map to show "cluster areas" of these disappearances based on the information he has gathered. Click here for a link to one version of his cluster map.

Understand that Paulides is also involved in researching the Bigfoot phenomena. However, I have heard him speak in interviews on YouTube about how, although he believes there may be a Sasquatch connection, he feels he still does not understand what is really happening other than the fact that these disappearances are real.

Now - there is still the possibility Deorr did fall into the stream and drowned and his body was swept away in the rapidly moving water (at least it looked rapidly moving in one of the videos that was posted.) He may also have made his way to the reservoir and drowned. But, if neither of these scenarios occurred, then he unfortunately has joined the list of children who have disappeared "in the blink of an eye" in a National Park or Forest. I am praying that they find him.

Thanks, Penelope!

Intriguing Cluster Map!

:waitasec:

 

[dalsglen]

Such a cute happy looking wee boy! How utterly terrifying!

 

[freckles]

The parents have been cleared by LE. We are not to sleuth the parents. Good, I agree as I found no alarm bells going off with them. Has LE said the Grandpa and friend are "solid"? I ask because they seem to be the last people to have seen Deorr whether they know this or not. There has been little to no talk by LE as to these two people. This bothers me. Is this normal not to discuss the very last people to see a missing person alive? Or maybe grandads friend was off fishing at the time, but we don't know because no one is telling us about the last on wn moments of little Deorrs whereabouts. THIS BOTHERS ME. Sure maybe we don't need to know, but we are asked to consider things like an abduction.
In the end I still believe he got in the creek. But this case makes me nuts in its vagueness.

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IMO - great grandpa and friend are in the same category of the parents. I do believe that LE has interviewed all relevant parties and their backgrounds. If LE is telling everyone to stop with the SM speculation, there is no reason to second guess them. Let LE handle the investigations.

This is a tragic situation, whether it be accident, stranger abduction, or foul play. Those who are close to the investigation and family know all the parties involved and would share any relevant information with LE. The public does not need to know every detail of the individuals lives.

With this new technology we have, our privacy is becoming a precious thing. Before, if something tragic happened in a person's life, only those close to them would know or remember years later. Now, anyone from anywhere can find all that information for no relevant purpose. Some purposes might not even be for just "curiosity" but for criminal purposes.

We, as society, want our own personal privacy but don't always respect the privacy of others

 

[desert-blue]

The parents have been cleared by LE. We are not to sleuth the parents. Good, I agree as I found no alarm bells going off with them. Has LE said the Grandpa and friend are "solid"? I ask because they seem to be the last people to have seen Deorr whether they know this or not. There has been little to no talk by LE as to these two people. This bothers me. Is this normal not to discuss the very last people to see a missing person alive? Or maybe grandads friend was off fishing at the time, but we don't know because no one is telling us about the last on wn moments of little Deorrs whereabouts. THIS BOTHERS ME. Sure maybe we don't need to know, but we are asked to consider things like an abduction.
In the end I still believe he got in the creek. But this case makes me nuts in its vagueness.

I agree with this 100%. I can't even figure out the identity of the grandfather. I thought it was JM's grandfather and TBC's father. There are two online obits of women who both list TBC as their daughter - now that is odd - not step-daughter or daughter-in-law, but actual daughter. How can you have two moms? And the father who shares her name, and who one would assume is her actual father, is deceased, so that obviously isn't the grandfather on the camping trip, even though she refers to him as her dad. Way confusing - even with all the info available online, I can't figure it out. And the EMT bag comment bothers me as well.

 

[catswhiskers]

I listened to the interview with Deorr's parents again (with lots of pausing and repeating), and the EMT bag was mentioned after the reporter had asked about rumors on social media. I have a feeling that there may have been a rumor about an EMT bag floating around on social media, and I think the person who mentioned it (and the need to clarify it) in the background may have been a friend or family member. There were obviously others in the room, and Deorr's mum kept looking over in that direction throughout the interview. I don't think another reporter was in the background interjecting - so maybe it was from family who were there to support mum and dad.

 

[Roselvr]

My 30 year old son had a 2nd hand blanket; I still have it. My daughter had a favorite one, I had bought about 5 of them; we have 3 left; one is in very bad shape. My grandson has 4 blankets, 2 blue, 2 green. One blue one stays in his bed, the other 3 he uses during the day; one will always come with us; it's always in his stroller because he has to have it when he wants it. He is also like DeOrr; except he still has a bottle; he also has to drag a toy or 5 with him. When it's time to leave, he runs around & grabs what he wants. lol

 

[ClaireNC]

I'm listening to the long interview again. One thing I noticed that the father makes a few comments that discount the grandfather's claim that DeOrr falls down a lot when walking. Early on in the interview, (1:20 to 1:50) the father says DeOrr is small for his age but he gets around pretty well. Later on, at the 5:30 mark, he says "this little boy is a goer and a mover, but he does not go away from his parents."

Also as for the EMT bag comment, it starts at the 5:50 mark with a female voice off-camera says "have you told them about the EMT bag? That needs to be addressed." and then at 6:06 the voice off-camera says again "We need, we need to talk about that..." and the father interrupts "We're going to get to that."

I get the impression that it is family members sitting off-camera. At one point when the parents are talking about the support from their family, they both look off towards their right, to the same area where of off-camera voice seems to come from. To me the female voice sounds like an older woman. When I first heard it I assumed it was her mother speaking.

[video=youtube;mwM1oG3z358]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwM1oG3z358[/video]

 

[Lizzzard]

I've considered this as well. I keep forgetting about the mysterious friend. I'm not sure how so much could be accomplished in such a short time frame especially if the soil is rocky and the digging difficult, but animals of the human sort never cease to amaze/horrify me.

...

Regarding the water, there was a young man featured on an episode of "Disappeared" who (most likely) committed suicide with pills near a river and his body was never found. That baffles me. There were plenty of potential snags in the river, but he seemed to vanish into thin air (his clothing was found). And he was a full grown adult.

At this point I'm hoping they find something, anything, to help these people to gain some closure for lack of a better term.

I still believe that the water is the most likely answer. If it was an abduction, I think it was someone extremely opportunistic. I would doubt a vehicle was involved (at least initially). The amount of time the person would have wasn't just the few minutes when the child disappeared (4-15+ minutes), it would also include the time before it was reported (20 min-1 hour) and the time after the report and before authorities arrived on scene (what was the response time?), maybe even a little after while searchers organized. Obviously, LE knows a lot more than we do (hopefully). I would think that they are looking for a complete accounting of whereabouts for everyone during this time, whether they were in the family's campsite or one that was nearby.

At this point, I fear that getting closure, and maybe justice, is the best anyone can hope for. My heart breaks for this family and little DeOrr.

 

[ClaireNC]

I listened to the interview with Deorr's parents again (with lots of pausing and repeating), and the EMT bag was mentioned after the reporter had asked about rumors on social media. I have a feeling that there may have been a rumor about an EMT bag floating around on social media, and I think the person who mentioned it (and the need to clarify it) in the background may have been a friend or family member. There were obviously others in the room, and Deorr's mum kept looking over in that direction throughout the interview. I don't think another reporter was in the background interjecting - so maybe it was from family who were there to support mum and dad.

Hi catswhiskers! GMTA. I just posted the same thing about it being family members in the room and one of them that brought up the EMT bag. As for rumors, I get the impression that is was not just social media rumors, but local rumors that they were addressing. None of us have been able to find anything about the EMT bag on social media, so it might have been something that was going around locally that we haven't heard about. I also never saw any criticism in social media about the dad's employer, but he felt it was important to mention that in the interview.

I really wish some local people would join our discussion.

 

[bessie]

Can we discuss the timeline and various versions given by the great grandfather for the last times that the toddler was seen? I am not speculating about the parents in any way. Just trying to figure out the great grandfathers timeline.

Discussing the timeline should be fine.

 

[ClaireNC]

I still believe that the water is the most likely answer. If it was an abduction, I think it was someone extremely opportunistic. I would doubt a vehicle was involved (at least initially). The amount of time the person would have wasn't just the few minutes when the child disappeared (4-15+ minutes), it would also include the time before it was reported (20 min-1 hour) and the time after the report and before authorities arrived on scene (what was the response time?), maybe even a little after while searchers organized. Obviously, LE knows a lot more than we do (hopefully). I would think that they are looking for a complete accounting of whereabouts for everyone during this time, whether they were in the family's campsite or one that was nearby.

At this point, I fear that getting closure, and maybe justice, is the best anyone can hope for. My heart breaks for this family and little DeOrr.

Another good post Lizzzard! As for response time, I know I heard in one of the news reports that it took an hour for the SAR team to get there.

As for a vehicle being involved, it was reported that there is only one road in and out of the campground. However, if you look at the maps, you will see that that one road actually splits into three different roads when it goes to and around the reservoir. They were camped on the middle road, but if the tree line is thick enough and the creek running hard enough to make noise, it is possible that a vehicle drove past the campsite without anybody noticing.

I don't really think it was an abduction, (I also think he is in the water), but just wanted to point this out.

 

[bessie]

I thought 'water' was the culprit, but somebody here has posted about how this dad discovered AFTER his son vanished that there was a dirt road at an elevation ABOVE the family's campsite, and if somebody/-ies were 'up there', they could have been watching the campsite the entire time without any family members being aware of that. Anyone have any pics' - aerial? pics of that road? pics taken FROM that 'road above', showing what a predator would have been able to see? Also, where did that road 'go' (to, and from) ?? tyia
--
Also, I have NO idea how to research for this, but I am wondering if there is an unidentified, ongoing-active serial child abductor/killer, and, or, a bunch of missing children (little boys?) of Deorr's age (size-he was 'petite'??) going about the USA doing this? Could somebody who knows about those things, please post full details - maps? dates? descriptions of the incidences? what children (boy-girl, age) is missing including WHERE they went missing, and how about map-dates-descriptions for 'found' deceased kids (boys), bodies, bones, etc., including WHERE found.

tyia

Do you have any idea how much data that would include? Or the magnitude of the task you're requesting. Doing your own research is easy enough. Scroll through the list of Missing persons and Located persons. Pay attention to the ages in the the thread titles.

 

[SweetT]

Another good post Lizzzard! As for response time, I know I heard in one of the news reports that it took an hour for the SAR team to get there.

As for a vehicle being involved, it was reported that there is only one road in and out of the campground. However, if you look at the maps, you will see that that one road actually splits into three different roads when it goes to and around the reservoir. They were camped on the middle road, but if the tree line is thick enough and the creek running hard enough to make noise, it is possible that a vehicle drove past the campsite without anybody noticing.

I don't really think it was an abduction, (I also think he is in the water), but just wanted to point this out.

My uncle used to walk the creek around our property and fish..he could be a mile away from where he started ..you would never know. Plenty of times he showed up while I was swimming in another area of the creek and took me by surprise. Also, these parents lost track of their 2 yr old, I'm not taking them for the whose in the campground authority at this point. Anyone could have been there for what ever reason. Hope they asked the clerk at the store if any others came in for fishing supplies etc that day.
BTW I also believe he possibly fell into the water, but since he hasn't been found I don't rule out anything.

 

[renarde]

There are two campgrounds at this location, off of the same road. I believe they were staying at the lower campground (2 campsites listed). The other campground is on the other side of the reservoir. I think it is called the "upper" Timber Creek campground or Timber Creek Reservoir campground. It is listed as having 5 campsites as well as a boat launch.

Was anyone camping there? Can the lower campground be seen from the upper campground? Is this what little Deorr's dad was talking about in the interview? Is the upper campground only accessible through the same road (172)?

 

[Lizzzard]

Another good post Lizzzard! As for response time, I know I heard in one of the news reports that it took an hour for the SAR team to get there.

As for a vehicle being involved, it was reported that there is only one road in and out of the campground. However, if you look at the maps, you will see that that one road actually splits into three different roads when it goes to and around the reservoir. They were camped on the middle road, but if the tree line is thick enough and the creek running hard enough to make noise, it is possible that a vehicle drove past the campsite without anybody noticing.

I don't really think it was an abduction, (I also think he is in the water), but just wanted to point this out.

I agree that the simplest route between A and B is that he is in the water. Specifically, caught up in debris. If that is the case, hopefully it was an accident. That sounds strange to say but I think you all will know what I mean.


As a side note, I have found that sometimes when more adults are involved it's often EASIER to lose track of a child than when it is just 1 or 2. While parents are usually pretty good about "transferring" child supervision duties to others ("Hey, you have the baby now."), people that don't have 24/7 responsibility for a little one can be a lot more casual about it. A parent may pass the duties to them but when the parent returns, even momentarily, the other adult sometimes assumes the "transfer" back has occurred, unbeknownst to the parent. So in those moments you get those times when both parties think the other one is watching when in fact no one is.

In my mind, I imagine that the parents made the transfer of duties to the GGpa, he said ok, they came back into sight momentarily and Little DeOrr and GGpa both saw them, Little DeOrr went after them, GGpa saw that and assumed the parents did too, but they didn't. Little DeOrr toddled after them and disappeared. The parents were near the creek and so it makes sense that that is where DeOrr headed. He was super-attached to his parents and tried to follow them, but couldn't keep up. At this point, I believe he either tumbled into the water or was intercepted by an opportunistic human.

 

[SweetT]

So what reasons would LE ask the family to stay around the campsite area for? Is it so they can quickly identify items that may or may not be related to their missing son?

 

[ClaireNC]

There are two campgrounds at this location, off of the same road. I believe they were staying at the lower campground (2 campsites listed). The other campground is on the other side of the reservoir. I think it is called the "upper" Timber Creek campground or Timber Creek Reservoir campground. It is listed as having 5 campsites as well as a boat launch.

Was anyone camping there? Can the lower campground be seen from the upper campground? Is this what little Deorr's dad was talking about in the interview? Is the upper campground only accessible through the same road (172)?

According to the Forest Service website, there are a total of 5 campsites Stone Reservoir - Timber Creek Campground. From the maps, it looks like there are 2 at the lower site, where DeOrr and his family were camped and 3 at the upper site, which is about 1/2 mile away on the other side of the reservoir. The campsite is listed as having "light usage". We haven't heard anything about anybody else camping there that weekend.

http://www.fs.usda.gov/recarea/scnf/recarea?recid=76098

From Leadore, go about 4 miles west on Lee Creek Road to Forest Road 105 (left fork). Go 7.5 miles, then turn onto FR 172 (right fork), go 1 mile to the lower campground, 1.5 mile to the upper.

 

[carbuff]

So what reasons would LE ask the family to stay around the campsite area for? Is it so they can quickly identify items that may or may not be related to their missing son?

A child who is lost will sometimes be frightened of strange people and be unwilling to come out for the searchers. So they'd want the parents there in case he is alive and lost and makes his way back to camp, he wouldn't be as likely to hide.

 

[carbuff]

According to the Forest Service website, there are a total of 5 campsites Stone Reservoir - Timber Creek Campground. From the maps, it looks like there are three at the lower site, where DeOrr and his family were camped and two at the upper site, which is about 1/2 mile away on the other side of the reservoir. The campsite is listed as having "light usage". We haven't heard anything about anybody else camping there that weekend.

http://www.fs.usda.gov/recarea/scnf/recarea?recid=76098

I just realized that when I was in junior high, we went to this campground, or one very near it, for a picnic and some fishing. We drove from Montana via Bannock Pass (very scenic but not good driving ), came down to Lemhi, and then drove up into the mountains. I think we spent the night in Salmon, if I remember correctly, and my grandfather pitched a fit in the restaurant because he ordered Boston cream pie and they brought him cake...