ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #10

[starfire]

That may not be an inconsistency at all. Keep in mind also that both are only approximations made during panic mode. The 20 mins might be how long they believe him to have been missing when they first noted his absence and the one hour might include that 20 mins plus 40 mins of searching time before the 911 call was made. Makes sense, to me.

I double-checked the interview and they said they were gone for only 10 minutes. Deorr said they searched for 20 minutes before calling 911, which adds up to 30 minutes. On the 911 call Jessica said he had been missing an hour. So, it is indeed an inconsistency even though it may be an "honest" inconsistency (guesstimating times).

 

[ILOKAL]

I double-checked the interview and they said they were gone for only 10 minutes. Deorr said they searched for 20 minutes before calling 911, which adds up to 30 minutes. On the 911 call Jessica said he had been missing an hour. So, it is indeed an inconsistency even though it may be an "honest" inconsistency (guesstimating times).

Didn't the interview say . . . . 10 mins - 50 yards? Estimates and approximations are just that. Given the circumstances, I don't think anyone would call that an "inconsistency" by any measure of the term. Did Jessica say an hour or did the 911 operator say an hour?

 

[Hoosier952]

I double-checked the interview and they said they were gone for only 10 minutes. Deorr said they searched for 20 minutes before calling 911, which adds up to 30 minutes. On the 911 call Jessica said he had been missing an hour. So, it is indeed an inconsistency even though it may be an "honest" inconsistency (guesstimating times).

So let's assume Jessica told 911 he'd been gone a half hour, operator misunderstood due to poor reception. Jessica either misheard or assumed "an hour?" was actually the operator repeating a half hour. It sounded like a lot of commotion going on in the background when she was calling, so maybe she couldn't hear well.

Supposedly GGP had either turned his head for a moment or didn't have an eye on him for 4, 6, or 10 minutes, and then later we hear that he actually watched him walk out of view.

We have JM and Sr. saying they were gone 10 minutes and 50 yds away if we disregard the hour comment from the operator.

We have IR saying Deorr just disappeared, as far as he knows.

So if we disregard the hour comment, it seems GGP is the only one screwing up our perception of the timeline, right? Or am I forgetting other comments that have been made?

 

[kammiemc]

I think there's a significant difference between "being forthcoming" and simply not caring whether or not a bunch of strangers (most of which are half a world away) have a clear understanding of the timeline. The police have been saying from the start that they are cooperating so obviously authorities are comfortable with the time line.
I have 4 children and am a photographer by trade. I have some amazing portraiture of my kids but I am not always that worried about documenting every little thing. We took a boat ride with my parents and sister today to an island for the day and I only took 1 picture the entire time and only 1 kid is in the pic. It's really not that weird if they didn't take pix, plenty of my friends only really have the images I take of their kids, they don't document the days.
I also think it's a little far fetched to think they brought a stranger in on part of some cover up. Like, "hey you've never met us but listen do you mind being a part of this huge lie for us?" I mean that just doesn't make any sense at all. As far as arriving Thursday night - again, no big deal? Maybe they had to work Thursday but wanted to have all day Friday there. Having a child doesn't have to be a handicap. I wouldn't hesitate to bring my 20 month old to set up camp at night. I wouldn't leave him with with my dad, though, only because he's a runner with 0 restraint or fear.
I've always kind of thought maybe the parents snuck off for some alone adult time.

I agree with all of this as one way this whole thing could go. The only thing that I think one can challenge is the assumption that the sheriff feels comfortable with the timeline because he said the parents have been cooperating. The problem with that is that he was led to believe that the parents arrived on Fri, and only discovered through investigation that they had, in fact, arrived Thurs. Giving the parents the benefit of the doubt that they didn't lie to LE or NE about their arrival date and instead it was just a miscommunication, why wouldn't they have clarified that inaccuracy? Why would the sheriff have to find out the truth on his own through further investigation? I am thinking that did not make him feel comfortable at all with the timeline since it was not originally true. Hope that makes sense.


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[SuperTmo]

So let's assume Jessica told 911 he'd been gone a half hour, operator misunderstood due to poor reception. Jessica either misheard or assumed "an hour?" was actually the operator repeating a half hour. It sounded like a lot of commotion going on in the background when she was calling, so maybe she couldn't hear well.

Supposedly GGP had either turned his head for a moment or didn't have an eye on him for 4, 6, or 10 minutes, and then later we hear that he actually watched him walk out of view.

We have JM and Sr. saying they were gone 10 minutes and 50 yds away if we disregard the hour comment from the operator.

We have IR saying Deorr just disappeared, as far as he knows.

So if we disregard the hour comment, it seems GGP is the only one screwing up our perception of the timeline, right? Or am I forgetting other comments that have been made?

The thing that bothers me about the 50 yards thing is that in the interview, the dad started to say (paraphrasing here) "we were gone 50..." and I believe he was intending to say 50 minutes but the mom interrupted him and said, "yards." Then it was 10 minutes and 50 yards. For someone who could barely get a word in edgewise into that entire interview, what a weird thing for the mother to so abruptly interject. There was so much self-editing in that interview on behalf of the dad, that he struck me as totally unreliable.

 

[jessie]

So let's assume Jessica told 911 he'd been gone a half hour, operator misunderstood due to poor reception. Jessica either misheard or assumed "an hour?" was actually the operator repeating a half hour. It sounded like a lot of commotion going on in the background when she was calling, so maybe she couldn't hear well.

Supposedly GGP had either turned his head for a moment or didn't have an eye on him for 4, 6, or 10 minutes, and then later we hear that he actually watched him walk out of view.

We have JM and Sr. saying they were gone 10 minutes and 50 yds away if we disregard the hour comment from the operator.

We have IR saying Deorr just disappeared, as far as he knows.

So if we disregard the hour comment, it seems GGP is the only one screwing up our perception of the timeline, right? Or am I forgetting other comments that have been made?

Listening and re-listening to the 911 call, myself I can't hear the mother say "half an hour" or "an hour". The sounds that I hear recorded are more like "around" or "about" " this ........."?

If LE have used their resources (or FBI) to clarify how long she says he has been missing, we haven't been informed.
I can fully understand she is in a state of panic and near despair, but I find it impossible to accept the "an hour".
All imo of course, but to me it raises a few questions. No disrespect to the parents or anyone here.

 

[ILOKAL]

I agree with all of this as one way this whole thing could go. The only thing that I think one can challenge is the assumption that the sheriff feels comfortable with the timeline because he said the parents have been cooperating. The problem with that is that he was led to believe that the parents arrived on Fri, and only discovered through investigation that they had, in fact, arrived Thurs. Giving the parents the benefit of the doubt that they didn't lie to LE or NE about their arrival date and instead it was just a miscommunication, why wouldn't they have clarified that inaccuracy? Why would the sheriff have to find out the truth on his own through further investigation? I am thinking that did not make him feel comfortable at all with the timeline since it was not originally true. Hope that makes sense.


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Where did you read or hear that the parents lied? The sheriff didn't EVER say that in his interview nor did he make an insinuation. To me it sounded like the detectives/investigators made the omission and then found out their own mistake and corrected it.

 

[dek]

FYI, I had nothing to do with them shutting down their site. Someone else reported it to the Maryland department of consumer protection. They in turn created a case number and referred it to the Attorney Generals office. She is the host (admin) of the public Facebook page Find DeOrr Kunz Jr. Search Event and posted about it there. I triple checked the rules for posting links to facebook pages, and I'm satisfied this is well within TOS. https://www.facebook.com/events/489787187855269/ I'm kind of amazed that she made such an effort to right a wrong. Kudos to her!

As of this morning Miracles for Little Man is back up and seems to be redesigned. It is also listed on Help Find Deorr Kunz site by Barnhart. Confusing.

 

[wondering25]

Listening and re-listening to the 911 call, myself I can't hear the mother say "half an hour" or "an hour". The sounds that I hear recorded are more like "around" or "about" " this ........."?

If LE have used their resources (or FBI) to clarify how long she says he has been missing, we haven't been informed.
I can fully understand she is in a state of panic and near despair, but I find it impossible to accept the "an hour".
All imo of course, but to me it raises a few questions. No disrespect to the parents or anyone here.

How about this? They went to the store and returned to camp at 1pm ( we havent left the campsite since 1pm per Dk interview) We went to the store "as a family". Did they return as a family? Did something happen on the way back? Just speculating but at this point cooperation means nothing.. i could be cooperating and lying through my teeth. Sure, search my house.. sure search my truck..that is cooperation..Doesnt mean a thing if the "crime scene" was the campground or somewhere else. Remember LE referred to it as a crime scene.. what CRIME? Why didn't they mention in the interview that GGP saw him go over an embankment? Wouldn't you think that was a HUGE clue as to where the baby would be? 4 minutes, 10 minutes.. turned his head.. How could GGP think Deorr was with his parents if he saw him go over an embankment? Makes no sense. JMO

 

[jessie]

How about this? They went to the store and returned to camp at 1pm ( we havent left the campsite since 1pm per Dk interview) We went to the store "as a family". Did they return as a family? Did something happen on the way back? Just speculating but at this point cooperation means nothing.. i could be cooperating and lying through my teeth. Sure, search my house.. sure search my truck..that is cooperation..Doesnt mean a thing if the "crime scene" was the campground or somewhere else. Remember LE referred to it as a crime scene.. what CRIME? Why didn't they mention in the interview that GGP saw him go over an embankment? Wouldn't you think that was a HUGE clue as to where the baby would be? 4 minutes, 10 minutes.. turned his head.. How could GGP think Deorr was with his parents if he saw him go over an embankment? Makes no sense. JMO

All sorts of questions and possible scenarios go through my mind.
Maybe they left Deorr asleep in the camper when they went to the store?
About his nap time, probably up early with the excitement of camping.
Said to ggp 'keep an eye on him' - came back and he was gone?

What witnesses are there? As to "going over the embankment", poor little mite. Maybe he woke and was looking for his mum and dad?

Honestly, I hate to have questions. The whole thing is a tragedy however it happened. imo.

 

[desert-blue]

.

The child went missing on Friday

The parents had no reason to discuss what they were doing on Monday , Tuesday , Wednesday or Thursday .

I respectfully disagree, especially when abduction has not been ruled out.

 

[desert-blue]

Who's "they"?

The Sheriff's Office - Penner and Bowerman. It took them 5 weeks to clarify the arrival time.

This is from August 18th:

"Bowerman said the group actually arrived late on Thursday, July 9. The next morning, DeOrr’s parents said they took their son to a store about 20 minutes from the campsite."

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/08/lemhi-sheriff-opens-up-about-deorr-kunz-case/

 

[Cardinal47]

I can certainly excuse mis speaks and problems with time. In a real world without a missing child it's hard to keep track. Sometimes I have to stop and think 'what DID I have for dinner last night'? It happens.

What does bother me is the lack of anybody seeming to be looking for his remains to bring him home for a proper burial. If he wandered off or fell in a creek he is gone just not found yet.

I see none of the usual groups of searchers, search tables, water being donated, wrist bands in the group.

I remember when Hailey Dunn went missing there was a group of women that never gave up looking for her. They searched daily for a long, long time. They held fundraisers and had meetings with volunteers. They brought in search dogs and handlers.

Kyron Horman's mother is organizing another search for Labor day.

Most families want closure. They want to find he/she that is missing. They want to bring them home.

Locals have said when they wander out and about they have a hard time finding one poster with the little fellows picture on it.

I donno. Something is just off with 'Missing DeOrr'.

MOO

 

[SuperTmo]

How about this? They went to the store and returned to camp at 1pm ( we havent left the campsite since 1pm per Dk interview) We went to the store "as a family". Did they return as a family? Did something happen on the way back? Just speculating but at this point cooperation means nothing.. i could be cooperating and lying through my teeth. Sure, search my house.. sure search my truck..that is cooperation..Doesnt mean a thing if the "crime scene" was the campground or somewhere else. Remember LE referred to it as a crime scene.. what CRIME? Why didn't they mention in the interview that GGP saw him go over an embankment? Wouldn't you think that was a HUGE clue as to where the baby would be? 4 minutes, 10 minutes.. turned his head.. How could GGP think Deorr was with his parents if he saw him go over an embankment? Makes no sense. JMO

What embankment? I missed that, as I only follow this story sporadically now due to all the confusion along w/ it. Maybe GGP thought the baby was with his parents because his parents took off that way? Not sure.

Either way, the "haven't left the campsite since 1pm" <modsnip>. Remember he went hauling off somewhere to make a phone call because he assumed (wrongly) that there was no phone service at the camp site and so he didn't even want to bother to try? And they DID leave the campsite when they went 50 yards, 10 minutes away. I consider a campsite the actual place that the camp is set up. Not the entire wilderness area around it.

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

The Sheriff's Office - Penner and Bowerman. It took them 5 weeks to clarify the arrival time.

This is from August 18th:

"Bowerman said the group actually arrived late on Thursday, July 9. The next morning, DeOrr’s parents said they took their son to a store about 20 minutes from the campsite."

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/08/lemhi-sheriff-opens-up-about-deorr-kunz-case/

LE possibly found out when we did. When Mum posted the arrival time on FB (21:38 IIRC?)

Can't remember what date that was.

 

[ILOKAL]

What embankment? I missed that, as I only follow this story sporadically now due to all the confusion along w/ it. Maybe GGP thought the baby was with his parents because his parents took off that way? Not sure.

Either way, the "haven't left the campsite since 1pm" <modsnip>. Remember he went hauling off somewhere to make a phone call because he assumed (wrongly) that there was no phone service at the camp site and so he didn't even want to bother to try? And they DID leave the campsite when they went 50 yards, 10 minutes away. I consider a campsite the actual place that the camp is set up. Not the entire wilderness area around it.

I think it's pretty clear when DK said they hadn't left the campsite since 1:00 what he meant. They didn't leave the area and go any great distance and they didn't go anywhere else in a vehicle. Nevermind DK "left" to call 911, IMO

 

[Hoosier952]

The thing that bothers me about the 50 yards thing is that in the interview, the dad started to say (paraphrasing here) "we were gone 50..." and I believe he was intending to say 50 minutes but the mom interrupted him and said, "yards." Then it was 10 minutes and 50 yards. For someone who could barely get a word in edgewise into that entire interview, what a weird thing for the mother to so abruptly interject. There was so much self-editing in that interview on behalf of the dad, that he struck me as totally unreliable.

I'm trying my best here to not be so speculative of the parents . But yes, I agree with you. He was going to say 50 minutes. I think as a parent, I'd be stating a concrete time. 50 yds is hardly a measure a time, and it certainly doesn't take 10 minutes to walk 50 yds.

Listening and re-listening to the 911 call, myself I can't hear the mother say "half an hour" or "an hour". The sounds that I hear recorded are more like "around" or "about" " this ........."?

If LE have used their resources (or FBI) to clarify how long she says he has been missing, we haven't been informed.
I can fully understand she is in a state of panic and near despair, but I find it impossible to accept the "an hour".
All imo of course, but to me it raises a few questions. No disrespect to the parents or anyone here.

As stated above, I'm trying not to point fingers at the parents, so I'm doing my best to come up with any logical answer. I too think she says about an hour. I've stated all along IMO they were gone longer than 10 minutes and were more than 50 yds away. I'm 50/50 on whether GGP knew he was supposed to be watching Deorr. Strangely, it was the interview with IR that really made me question whether this was a simple accident or if something more sinister happened.

 

[pepelepolecat]

Where did you read or hear that the parents lied? The sheriff didn't EVER say that in his interview nor did he make an insinuation. To me it sounded like the detectives/investigators made the omission and then found out their own mistake and corrected it.

The OP mentioned that they assumed the parents did NOT lie. I didn't see a statement to the effect that the parents lied.

.

The child went missing on Friday

The parents had no reason to discuss what they were doing on Monday , Tuesday , Wednesday or Thursday .

They certainly had no reason to discuss this information with the public or press. But I think they had plenty of reasons to do so with the police and would be heartily surprised to learn that the police did not create an in-depth timeline with the help of the parents -- not starting with the moment DeOrr went missing but with the movements of everyone leading up to that event.

Crimes do not occur in a vacuum, and often the victim's movements in the hours and days before a crime (or, in this case, a potential crime) can be critical in identifying the perpetrator/s, if any exist.

 

[TxJan1971]

What embankment? I missed that, as I only follow this story sporadically now due to all the confusion along w/ it. Maybe GGP thought the baby was with his parents because his parents took off that way? Not sure.

Either way, the "haven't left the campsite since 1pm" <modsnip>. Remember he went hauling off somewhere to make a phone call because he assumed (wrongly) that there was no phone service at the camp site and so he didn't even want to bother to try? And they DID leave the campsite when they went 50 yards, 10 minutes away. I consider a campsite the actual place that the camp is set up. Not the entire wilderness area around it.

BBM

August 18, 2015

Nate Eaton Interview with Sheriff Bowerman
Direct Quote

4:58
Sheriff Bowerman:
&#8220;Ya&#8217; know, personally, I think an abduction is one of the least likely events. Primarily, the information we have is&#8230;grandpa is watching the child. He tells me he looks away momentarily. When he looks back, he&#8217;s gone, and he&#8217;s assumed he&#8217;s gone over the bank. Right where grandpa is sitting, he&#8217;s within 20-30 yards of the only roadway into the campground, and absolutely no one was seen at that lower campground coming or going, and when my personnel went in, nobody was seen leaving, so I think it, You know, I mean I can&#8217;t completely rule it out, but it&#8217;s one of the least likely things that occurred.&#8221;

 

[desert-blue]

LE possibly found out when we did. When Mum posted the arrival time on FB (21:38 IIRC?)

Can't remember what date that was.

The mom's FB post was from July 31st, so 2.5 weeks before LE verified the arrival date. She said they arrived Thursday at 9:30 pm (21:30).