ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #13

[Dee10]

Yes , but there are a lot of variables at play which need to be considered. In order for FLIR to detect the heat emitted from the child it requires a cooler background , which in this case would be the ground , trees and rocks

The terrain must first cool down , which means after sundown plus several hours for everything to cool off . Once the ground cools a head would produce the best heat source , and clothing would block a lot of the rest of body heat , esp jackets.

It is a good system but if the child is deceased by late evening it will not show up (no heat being produced) , or if the child is under a big log it could block the heat , and of course anything under water would not show up.

But yes , if the boy was alive and not hidden by debris or terrain the helicopter should have found him.

I thought it could penetrate a log for instance as fire-fighters can use this technology to see if someone is inside a house, but maybe in depends on the thickness? Fascinating technology though.

 

[ILOKAL]

How could he say they identified every animal in the area? They could not have known that.

I appreciate and agree with both of your posts. And yes, SB says some strange things. When he said . . . we really should have found him the first day (if he was there) . . . We really should have. . . He really believes that and sounds so stumped and perplexed that they didn't. He truly believes that what they did to search for DeOrr was the end all be all for searching for a small child in a forest full of dangerous animals, waterways, cliffs, perhaps strangers, and whatever else. His attitude, although sincere, is really bothersome. IMO

 

[Little Ol Me]

"Then later that evening we had a helicopter up with a FLIR, which is a heat seeking source. They identified every animal that was in the region and if that child was in the that 3-mile radius, we would have found him," said Bowerman.

http://m.localnews8.com/news/3-mont...=social&utm_source=facebook_KIFI_Local_News_8

It may be somewhat accurate the every animal in the 3 mile radius was identified, at THAT time. However Deorr disappeared that afternoon.

 

[Little Ol Me]

Looks like I'm a little slow,...I see others made my same point.

 

[ReadySet]

Didn't SB also say that the GGPA and IR also confirmed having seen DeOrr at the campsite?

Yes, I left them out. Again, if you take what all the POIs said at at face value.

 

[ReadySet]

If she didn't see DeOrr (which is what she said, I believe), then no amount of recollecting or looking at pictures will trigger her memory. She remembered the parents because she visited with them.

Yep. So, either she didn't remember seeing little Deorr because he was there but she didn't see him; she saw him but didn't remember seeing him; or he wasn't in the store. Who knows.

 

[ILOKAL]

Yes, I left them out. Again, if you take what all the POIs said at at face value.

It's just difficult to come up with a sensible scenario that would have to include ALL FOUR POIs lying about DeOrr being there. It seems as though the FBI and SB believe DeOrr was there. IMO. So if that's the case, then SB has put entirely too much faith in his searches, searchers, dogs, water equipment and FLIR.

Apparently, FLIR isn't everything it's cracked up to be. It failed TWICE in this article, and the mountain lion WAS there:

http://patch.com/california/sanbruno/san-mateo-ca-if-you-encounter-mountain-lion

 

[ReadySet]

I appreciate and agree with both of your posts. And yes, SB says some strange things. When he said . . . we really should have found him the first day (if he was there) . . . We really should have. . . He really believes that and sounds so stumped and perplexed that they didn't. He truly believes that what they did to search for DeOrr was the end all be all for searching for a small child in a forest full of dangerous animals, waterways, cliffs, perhaps strangers, and whatever else. His attitude, although sincere, is really bothersome. IMO

I agree that, taken at face value, he says some troubling things.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

"Then later that evening we had a helicopter up with a FLIR, which is a heat seeking source. They identified every animal that was in the region and if that child was in the that 3-mile radius, we would have found him," said Bowerman.

http://m.localnews8.com/news/3-mont...=social&utm_source=facebook_KIFI_Local_News_8

This makes me think he didn't just wander off and that if he was within that area - still alive - they'd have found him.

But then there's Rainn Peterson..... (same age and found alive after 2 days and nights outside alone, for those that didn't follow)

 

[Mickshawn]

Same think .... the kid was not one to sit still .... and yes , he liked to stay close to his parents .... and he probably went running to find them.

It appears he did not find them. He probably spent the rest of the daylight hours looking for them.

But wouldn't he cry, call out to them?? Maybe they were not right over the bank when/if he arrived there. Perhaps they were elsewhere?

 

[gliving]

Well...the parents never called Deorr a "runner" afaik. They said he was a mover and a goer. That's open to interpretaion I guess. They also said he doesn't go away from them, which could be interpreted as he would want to stay close to them and not run away. Again, I think those terms are open to interpretaion. JMO

ETA: And if he was a "runner," the parents would know that, and I would think they would take care that whoever was supervising him could handle that.

I'm a bit concerned with GGP Walton being oxygen dependent, that the camp's higher elevation of over 7600 ft would make it difficult for him to carry on with his normal activities. Even increasing his oxygen flow wouldn't help if he had diminished lung function. I know I suffer at high altitudes and I'm a healthy adult. I get breathless with even mild exertion. Just wondering if it was prudent to have left the toddler with GPP. But that's water under the bridge at this point.

http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/altitude-sickness-topic-overview
What is altitude sickness?

 

[ILOKAL]

This makes me think he didn't just wander off and that if he was within that area - still alive - they'd have found him.

But then there's Rainn Peterson..... (same age and found alive after 2 days and nights outside alone, for those that didn't follow)

Yes, and a volunteer searcher found her a half mile from the house, in tall grass, after the area had already been searched three times.

 

[haven71]

I think everyone who is so certain that someone SHOULD have remembered seeing DeOrr in the store (IF he was even there?) should give themselves that same test. Look back over the last 3-4 days at all the places you went and see if you remember just anyone (not someone who stood out for a particular reason). We just returned from an 11-day vacation to seven states and LOTS of places and I don't remember anyone that we didn't directly engage with.

Perhaps an 11 day trip to seven states might not remember too much, ya think?

This is a very rural area. I still strongly believe that someone would have remembered a little blonde boy being in a store, shortly after learning of the toddler's disappearance. Everyone there would be WRACKING their brains, no doubt!!!

 

[Elena]

Perhaps an 11 day trip to seven states might not remember too much, ya think?

This is a very rural area. I still strongly believe that someone would have remembered a little blonde boy being in a store, shortly after learning of the toddler's disappearance. Everyone there would be WRACKING their brains, no doubt!!!

I agree, it's a small shop in a rural area. So the small store was 'busy', people might be waiting to be served / to pay etc, someone should have seen baby Deorr if he was inside the store.

It's a different story if it was a big shopping centre in the city...

 

[giagreen]

Those of you with runners, how far do you think a two year old could get? Iirc the sheriff said they only searched 2 miles of the Creek. How far would you search?

I think four five miles around the area would be good. We got to remember if he did run or wonder off and made it let's say 2.5 miles and something happen there if picked up by an animal dead or alive his clothing could then be outside a ways from the 2 mile search area.

 

[Mickshawn]

Wouldn't I love to sit down with these 4 folks (and a few other people) and a list of questions and get some stuff cleared up.

 

[EllieBee]

Wouldn't I love to sit down with these 4 folks (and a few other people) and a list of questions and get some stuff cleared up.

I would vote to elect you sheriff. Because, asking questions.

 

[ReadySet]

JMO, some of our conclusions are based on what we believe about the local LE. We either believe that:
The Sheriff is competent and has an idea of what happened.
The Sheriff is competent but has no idea what happened.
The Sheriff is incompetent and has no idea what happened.

So that belief affects our own ideas. JMO

 

[Hoosier952]

Where did you hear that? Sheriff Bowerman is going to the Idaho Falls LE to discuss how the case should proceed, is that what you're thinking of?

I think I blended too many sentences together in my tired brain and was trying to remember too much to post about. Yes, SB is going to IF and PI is out due to disagreements.

80 hour work weeks are really cutting into my WS time and I'm trying to play catch up on Sundays. Disregard.

 

[BlkMtnGirl]

Crazy question. Do searchers always get out there with four-wheelers, horses, etc.? The reason I'm asking is -- if my 2-yr-old went wandering on his own, we'd be able to hear him talking to himself for a while. (I know, the creek.) Do investigators of missing children ask parents what is the best method of searching for their child? And/or do they stop the engines for a while and listen?