ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #22

[desert-blue]

I asked about DeOrr's trucks because I am wondering if they drove up in a diesel truck (thus the stop for diesel) but did a switcheroo sometime in the middle of the night/early morning hours of July 10th, and returned in a different (maybe gas?) truck. Perhaps DeOrr wouldn't settle down and go to sleep in the back of the Surburban so he was physically punished and put in his car seat in DK's truck and left alone for a period of time, during which time he died from injuries. Upon discovering he was deceased, DK and/or JM drove to Idaho Falls, disposed of DeOrr somewhere along the way (maybe near the Snake River?), switched trucks, and went back to the campground. When GGPA and IR got up and about, DK and JM said they were taking DeOrr and heading into town because JM needed feminine supplies. They went to the store and eventually returned, maybe told IR and GGPA that DeOrr was asleep in the truck, pretended to go exploring/fishing, and then "discovered" DeOrr was missing. The highway webcams may hold the key if this scenario played out (and would certainly be a "smoking gun"). Not my only theory, but just thought I'd throw it out there. MOO.

 

[gliving]

gliving, I'm under the impression the dogs hit on DeOrr's scent at the campsite just not away from it.

I thought Bowerman said that of the 18 or so dogs brought in, none found a positive scent for Deorr. Some went 1/4 mile away to the reservoir but it was a false hit on the cremains. And that was a couple days later.

I'm sure someone who's kept up on the dog talk will come along and correct us if needed. TIA

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

I thought Bowerman said that of the 18 or so dogs brought in, none found a positive scent for Deorr. Some went 1/4 mile away to the reservoir but it was a false hit on the cremains. And that was a couple days later.

I'm sure someone who's kept up on the dog talk will come along and correct us if needed. TIA

It is actually something that is still unclear to me, gliving. IIRC, SB has said that his own (or his departments own) tracking/scent dog as well as a SAR one were there that afternoon and before the cremains incident (Sunday?)

I always thought that these first two dogs were the ones that tracked a scent down to the reservoir and then circled back to the campsite?

 

[desert-blue]

Everyone I know takes an ice chest on a camping trip. Could this be the reason dogs didn't hit? That is, DeOrr passes away during the night, his body is put in an ice chest and then disposed of during the trip to the store. DK reminds me of someone that would have one of those huge metal Coleman ice chests. Would dogs hit on an ice chest that once had a body in it since the body would have been kept cold which would have slowed down decomposition? Maybe the ice chest was tossed along with the body. Maybe the ice chest was put back in the truck after his little body was tossed in a dumpster, hence his body not being found buried or unburied on the mountain. If it was thrown in a dumpster, chances are it will never be found.

I am intrigued by the ice cooler. That is an interesting idea. I wonder if DK and JM owned one and if by chance it has been noticed as missing. I assume LE looked to see if the parents had appropriate camping gear and you'd think LE would notice and make note of the fact if DK/JM did not have a cooler? Although they could have just said they were all planning on using GGPA's cooler (if he had one also) - but still it would be odd if they were traveling and camping with a tot and didn't have their own cooler, IMO.

The cooler idea reminded me of an episode of Law & Order where a young couple claimed their child had been abducted (I don't remember the specifics) and LE suspected they had killed the child because the baby's DNA was found in their cooler. Turns out the baby died of natural caused (SIDS maybe?) but parents thought they were at fault so they hid the body and made up the abduction story. All recollection - I'm probably off a little, but that's the gist of it. I remember watching it not too long after DeOrr disappeared and some of the similarities were kind of eerie. It's on Netflix (episode 5, "Missing Pieces")... it's an interesting episode.

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

I am intrigued by the ice cooler. That is an interesting idea. I wonder if DK and JM owned one and if by chance it has been noticed as missing. I assume LE looked to see if the parents had appropriate camping gear and you'd think LE would notice and make note of the fact if DK/JM did not have a cooler? Although they could have just said they were all planning on using GGPA's cooler (if he had one also) - but still it would be odd if they were traveling and camping with a tot and didn't have their own cooler, IMO.

The cooler idea reminded me of an episode of Law & Order where a young couple claimed their child had been abducted (I don't remember the specifics) and LE suspected they had killed the child because the baby's DNA was found in their cooler. Turns out the baby died of natural caused (SIDS maybe?) but parents thought they were at fault so they hid the body and made up the abduction story. All recollection - I'm probably off a little, but that's the gist of it. I remember watching it not too long after DeOrr disappeared and some of the similarities were kind of eerie. It's on Netflix (episode 5, "Missing Pieces")... it's an interesting episode.

I'll have to check out that episode. Thanks!

 

[ClaireNC]

This is probably way out there, but I'm going to throw it out there anyway. If DeOrr had a head injury, he may have had a severe nosebleed or bleeding from the ears. Growing up in the country, and being an unbelievably accident prone kid, (I once broke both feet in one day... 2 separate incidents [emoji15]) my dad taught me that tampons could staunch the blood flow from a severe nosebleed. Also, it would keep blood from getting everywhere. Do we know if they actually bought feminine products?

I actually had the same thought. We live on a farm and I keep both pads and tampons stocked in my livestock medical kits. They come in handy in various ways around a farm.

 

[ClaireNC]

I asked about DeOrr's trucks because I am wondering if they drove up in a diesel truck (thus the stop for diesel) but did a switcheroo sometime in the middle of the night/early morning hours of July 10th, and returned in a different (maybe gas?) truck. Perhaps DeOrr wouldn't settle down and go to sleep in the back of the Surburban so he was physically punished and put in his car seat in DK's truck and left alone for a period of time, during which time he died from injuries. Upon discovering he was deceased, DK and/or JM drove to Idaho Falls, disposed of DeOrr somewhere along the way (maybe near the Snake River?), switched trucks, and went back to the campground. When GGPA and IR got up and about, DK and JM said they were taking DeOrr and heading into town because JM needed feminine supplies. They went to the store and eventually returned, maybe told IR and GGPA that DeOrr was asleep in the truck, pretended to go exploring/fishing, and then "discovered" DeOrr was missing. The highway webcams may hold the key if this scenario played out (and would certainly be a "smoking gun"). Not my only theory, but just thought I'd throw it out there. MOO.

Sorry, I don't understand your thought process on the switching trucks part. Why would it matter if one truck was diesel and one gas fueled? Wouldn't LE notice if they switched trucks if they were known to have gotten diesel on the way up there? On the other hand, I have wondered about a car seat and if it was still in the truck and/or has been located. The part about him being punished and made to sleep alone in the truck is certainly possible.

 

[Jackeee]

I may have missed the info here, but has it ever been confirmed that GGP has some mental issues like dementia or was that FB rumour? Thx

 

[bessie]

I also do not believe DeOrr ever made it to the campground, and I don't believe IR would have known him at all, since the parents didn't know IR.
I also think that there are several things that will show false presence for human blood:
http://the-gist.org/2011/03/seeing-red-–-presumptive-tests-for-blood/
"While at first glance this seems like a fantastic solution to the problem of how to detect blood residue, there are several issues with its use. The most significant is that the reaction is not specific to blood and it will in fact emit light in the presence of a range of substances including plant materials, metals and cleaning products such as bleach."
From Wikipedia-"Luminol can detect the small amount of blood present in urine, and can be distorted if animals urine is present in the room being tested."
I suppose that luminol would react to deer and other animal urine.
Good sleuthing folks!
jmo

Which will fool the eye. Lab analysis will properly identify the source.

 

[desert-blue]

Sorry, I don't understand your thought process on the switching trucks part. Why would it matter if one truck was diesel and one gas fueled? Wouldn't LE notice if they switched trucks if they were known to have gotten diesel on the way up there? On the other hand, I have wondered about a car seat and if it was still in the truck and/or has been located. The part about him being punished and made to sleep alone in the truck is certainly possible.

I only wonder because it's been confirmed that they purchased diesel fuel on the way up but I have never heard anyone confirm that either vehicle at the campground was a diesel. Klein wouldn't even answer that question and it doesn't seem like it should be that big of a deal, which makes me suspicious. If one of them was a diesel, why wouldn't Klein just say, "yes, one (or both) vehicles run on diesel." Instead he answers "This goes to evidence - and we will not comment." They bought diesel, but what for if not for a vehicle?

I also wonder about car seats. If they had two trucks, would they have had a separate car seat for each truck? Because if something happened to DeOrr in his car seat in one truck, they likely would have disposed of that car seat, especially if they knew their other truck had a different seat (and that one would be free of evidence).

Just a theory... it has issues, but don't they all? It doesn't fit with Klein's timeline either (unless they left at 8:00 AM to drive to Idaho Falls, which actually probably is possible, but they would have been gone for 5 hours and you'd think GGPA and/or IR would have noticed). I was also trying to tie in the highway webcam images and how they might be significant....


ETA: from the Q & A
AA: What vehicles were at the campsite when law enforcement arrived on July 10th. Were any of the vehicles diesel? Was diesel fuel purchased?
Klein Investigations and Consulting This goes to evidence - and we will not comment. We will say yes on the diesel fuel purchase.

 

[gliving]

Dog notes from our resource page:

"Klein Investigations and Consulting DN There were no hits by the dogs. We will not comment on witness statements as they are now part of the prosectuional issues."

“No remains, no clothing. Nothing up there. The cadaver dogs couldn't find anything. The search dogs couldn't find anything,” said Vilt."

And from https://ksl.com/?sid=35592900&nid=157

"Numerous resources, including helicopters with FLIR (forward looking infrared radiometer), divers, side scan sonar, scent dogs, cadaver dogs, horses, ATVs, and over 300 people, were used," Bowerman said, "with absolutely no sign of the victim."

 

[desert-blue]

I may have missed the info here, but has it ever been confirmed that GGP has some mental issues like dementia or was that FB rumour? Thx

According to Sheriff Bowerman, he has memory issues. I think that's about all we know for sure.

 

[persimmon]

I may have missed the info here, but has it ever been confirmed that GGP has some mental issues like dementia or was that FB rumour? Thx

Rumor. We do not know what physical or mental (if any) challenges GGF suffers with the exception that he is oxygen dependent.

 

[Trident]

Which will fool the eye. Lab analysis will properly identify the source.

That's interesting, something I didn't know. Do you have a link so I can look into it further?

 

[CatsInTheCradle]

I have a couple of questions. Does anyone know if the sweet picture taken in the truck with Jessica kissing little Deorr on the cheek was taken on the way to the campground? No matter when taken, was he in a car seat? It doesn't look like it to me. Also if they had one of those trucks that have the fold out bench seats, they won't accommodate a car seat, right?

 

[persimmon]

According to Sheriff Bowerman, he has memory issues. I think that's about all we know for sure.

Sorry, I wasn't aware that SB stated that. I stand corrected then.

 

[bessie]

That's interesting, something I didn't know. Do you have a link so I can look into it further?

Not handy, but if you need a link that shows laboratory analysis will distinguish human blood from cat pee, I'll be glad to find one.

 

[desert-blue]

Sorry, I wasn't aware that SB stated that. I stand corrected then.

No worries, I was just thinking back to his comments when he talked about GGPA in his interview with NE.

Eaton: How about Grandpa (Walton). Has his story changed?

Bowerman: He struggles with remembering certain things, and I think he gets frustrated quicker. You ask him something and sometimes he’ll say, “Yeah, maybe that’s what happened,” because he doesn’t truly remember. I can’t say his stories have been inconsistent. He just hasn’t been as knowledgable and forthcoming as the parents.

 

[kammiemc]

I only wonder because it's been confirmed that they purchased diesel fuel on the way up but I have never heard anyone confirm that either vehicle at the campground was a diesel. Klein wouldn't even answer that question and it doesn't seem like it should be that big of a deal, which makes me suspicious. If one of them was a diesel, why wouldn't Klein just say, "yes, one (or both) vehicles run on diesel." Instead he answers "This goes to evidence - and we will not comment." They bought diesel, but what for if not for a vehicle?

I also wonder about car seats. If they had two trucks, would they have had a separate car seat for each truck? Because if something happened to DeOrr in his car seat in one truck, they likely would have disposed of that car seat, especially if they knew their other truck had a different seat (and that one would be free of evidence).

Just a theory... it has issues, but don't they all? It doesn't fit with Klein's timeline either (unless they left at 8:00 AM to drive to Idaho Falls, which actually probably is possible, but they would have been gone for 5 hours and you'd think GGPA and/or IR would have noticed). I was also trying to tie in the highway webcam images and how they might be significant....


ETA: from the Q & A
AA: What vehicles were at the campsite when law enforcement arrived on July 10th. Were any of the vehicles diesel? Was diesel fuel purchased?
Klein Investigations and Consulting This goes to evidence - and we will not comment. We will say yes on the diesel fuel purchase.

I think a truck switch is a possibility. There is definitely something weird with the diesel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[gliving]

I have a couple of questions. Does anyone know if the sweet picture taken in the truck with Jessica kissing little Deorr on the cheek was taken on the way to the campground? No matter when taken, was he in a car seat? It doesn't look like it to me. Also if they had one of those trucks that have the fold out bench seats, they won't accommodate a car seat, right?

It was discussed way back in thread #5 that Vernal's truck had the little jump seats in the back that can't be used legally for a car seat. If Deorr had a car seat it would be belted in the middle of the front seat. There are photos of Vernal's truck here, but I don't think you can see in the windows to see if there was a car seat.

I don't think we've been told when any of Deorr's photos were taken. One can estimate according to his size and clothing. IIRC we don't have any very recent photos, like during the month before he disappeared.