ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #27

[Jo in Calif]

In case anyone is interested in listening to it, a new true crime podcast about DeOrr was released last night by True Crime Brewery. It is called "Little Boy Lost", and can be downloaded for free via their website:

http://tiegrabber.com/index.php/true-crime-brewery/





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When I first started listening to this I thought there is no way I can stand almost an hour of this.
But I thought OK just give it a chance, I found it quite good.
Their perspective on Klein, IMO, was spot on.
Worth listening to and they can be quite funny and down to earth.

 

[persimmon]

http://www.fastcompany.com/3007645/location-location-location/mobile-phones-have-fingerprints-too

This article references the study and is where I found the quote. As a side note, I have no idea about JA turning off her phone. That was something I saw here and just commented on so not sure if it even has any bearing on the case.

 

[desert-blue]

The theory of DeOrr being accidentally run over with Vernal's truck seems quite plausible but I'm confused about the intentional homicide part (as indicated by both Bowerman and Klein) combined with Klein's comments about motive. If the motive was for Vernal and Jessica to go their separate ways and be free of their child rearing obligations, wouldn't that indicate some level of premeditation? Did they go on the camping trip with the intent of backing over him with the truck? That just doesn't make sense to me for some reason... Did they intentionally back over him in Idaho Falls just prior to leaving on the camping trip? Did they accept Trina's invitation to chaperone Bob and then make the conscious decision that it would be the perfect opportunity to rid themselves of their child by doing something to him that caused blunt force trauma? I do think intentional homicide could apply if someone began hitting a child and did not stop, knowing that their actions would result in death. To me, that seems more plausible than intentionally backing over him with a truck, but it doesn't explain the hits on the bumper and wheel well of the truck.... I guess I'm just really confused.

 

[neesaki]

The theory of DeOrr being accidentally run over with Vernal's truck seems quite plausible but I'm confused about the intentional homicide part (as indicated by both Bowerman and Klein) combined with Klein's comments about motive. If the motive was for Vernal and Jessica to go their separate ways and be free of their child rearing obligations, wouldn't that indicate some level of premeditation? Did they go on the camping trip with the intent of backing over him with the truck? That just doesn't make sense to me for some reason... Did they intentionally back over him in Idaho Falls just prior to leaving on the camping trip? Did they accept Trina's invitation to chaperone Bob and then make the conscious decision that it would be the perfect opportunity to rid themselves of their child by doing something to him that caused blunt force trauma? I do think intentional homicide could apply if someone began hitting a child and did not stop, knowing that their actions would result in death. To me, that seems more plausible than intentionally backing over him with a truck, but it doesn't explain the hits on the bumper and wheel well of the truck.... I guess I'm just really confused.

For some reason something just came to mind upon reading your post. What if one of them lost it and hit little Deorr too hard, or he died from some type of drug overdose, then they purposely backed over him with the truck to make GGP think it was an accident. My imagination might be in overdrive, but it's just a thought, aka speculation. Well, whatever happened it must be pretty terrible, otherwise why the extensive cover up and why is it now possibly an intentional homicide?

After thought: OMG, this is too horrible, too gruesome. Surely they're not so cold as to do something so heinous. :scared: Hopefully just wild speculation and JMO

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

When I first started listening to this I thought there is no way I can stand almost an hour of this.
But I thought OK just give it a chance, I found it quite good.
Their perspective on Klein, IMO, was spot on.
Worth listening to and they can be quite funny and down to earth.

When I first started listening to their podcasts, I thought the same thing as you first felt, lol!

But I have come to enjoy their research and perspectives very, very much!

MOO


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[carbuff]

Mods, FYI Klein named Bob as a SUSPECT in last night's Q&A. Even though we weren't allowed to sleuth Jessica and Vernal until MONTHS after they were named as suspects, I truly hope we can now fully sleuth Bob. His "what's done is done" comment and questioning if there was going to to be a funeral a few days after the "disappearance" need to be explored.

It doesn't matter what Klein calls him or anybody else. Klein is not LE and his opinion about who might be guilty carries no more weight than yours or mine.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Hypothetical question: Klein stated very definitely in the Q&A he believes the cause of death was "blunt force trauma". Let's assume for a minute he is right.

How could he know this without a body or confession?
Would being hit by a car be classed as blunt force trauma?
Or is this why there was such interest in the shovel?
Surely if either had evidence of DeOrr's DNA/fluids they could have arrested people by now?
But I thought they hadn't been able to determine whose fluids it was?
Didn't Klein also once say something like "we know how he died, but not why he died"...
What's going on?
What do we NOT know?

 

[CoverMeCagney]

It doesn't matter what Klein calls him or anybody else. Klein is not LE and his opinion about who might be guilty carries no more weight than yours or mine.

It carries no more weight legally, but we have to accept he does know significantly more about the case than anyone here. For starters he has spent hours with the 4 POI's.

When did LE last release any statements?

 

[Eloise]

The theory of DeOrr being accidentally run over with Vernal's truck seems quite plausible but I'm confused about the intentional homicide part (as indicated by both Bowerman and Klein) combined with Klein's comments about motive. If the motive was for Vernal and Jessica to go their separate ways and be free of their child rearing obligations, wouldn't that indicate some level of premeditation? Did they go on the camping trip with the intent of backing over him with the truck? That just doesn't make sense to me for some reason... Did they intentionally back over him in Idaho Falls just prior to leaving on the camping trip? Did they accept Trina's invitation to chaperone Bob and then make the conscious decision that it would be the perfect opportunity to rid themselves of their child by doing something to him that caused blunt force trauma? I do think intentional homicide could apply if someone began hitting a child and did not stop, knowing that their actions would result in death. To me, that seems more plausible than intentionally backing over him with a truck, but it doesn't explain the hits on the bumper and wheel well of the truck.... I guess I'm just really confused.

I think Deorr's death was probably accidental, but they're covering it up because it happened because being honest about it at the time would have gotten them in trouble for something else. What that is, one can only speculate (and I can think of multiple scenarios).

I really think if it was premeditated they'd have come up with a better and more consistent story. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit. I'm inclined to usually tend to believe LE.

 

[mommylicious]

It carries no more weight legally, but we have to accept he does know significantly more about the case than anyone here. For starters he has spent hours with the 4 POI's.

When did LE last release any statements?

I agree with you re:Klein's information. I think carbuff's statement was more in response to the question of whether or not we could not sleuth GGPA since Klein named him a suspect. Which, for the purpose of WS, Klein's designation of suspect is different than if LE came out and officially called him a suspect.

 

[mommylicious]

I think Deorr's death was probably accidental, but they're covering it up because it happened because being honest about it at the time would have gotten them in trouble for something else. What that is, one can only speculate (and I can think of multiple scenarios).

I really think if it was premeditated they'd have come up with a better and more consistent story. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit. I'm inclined to usually tend to believe LE.

That makes the most sense to me. I get tripped up w/Klein's talk of "motive" and intimation that JA was dating her new husband well before originally thought. Other than that, everything says accident + coverup to me.

 

[Jackeee]

I got stalled at 'blunt force trauma'. DeOrr was 2 and a half. Motive? I'm having trouble with this. Yes, I read Klein's page. Trina contributed (if it was her), a couple of comments. I guess I just can't get past that DeOrr was so little and vulnerable but until the truth comes out, he he still out there somewhere.

 

[turtlefur]

Couldn't blunt force also mean falling and heading his head? I realize that doesn't work with intentional homicide though.


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[Paulas88]

Couldn't blunt force also mean falling and heading his head? I realize that doesn't work with intentional homicide though.


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VDK probably hit him to hard.

 

[kshultz06082]

I am completely blown away by that Q&A! I now firmly believe he was run over by VK's truck and then transported somewhere in the bed of the truck. The only remaining questions I have are 1) who was driving the truck? 2) were they under the influence of some substance? And 3) where is this baby's body?

I think the answers to numbers 1 and 2 will explain why an accident was covered up.

None of this will explain their cavalier attitude to the loss of a child however. If I had to place bets on the answers, VK was driving and impaired. He knows it was his fault and is trying to hide his guilt which is coming off as uncaring. As for JA, I think this just happened to be a lucky accident. She was probably already dating her new husband and wanted the single/child free life and VK accidentally made that happen for her. As for IR, I think he was inebriated and really has no clue what actually happened. He may have even gone to bed before the accident happened. I believe RW falls in the same category as IR, but has made the mistake of making comments that come off as uncaring. The comments are horrible, but I hate to admit it, I know some crabby old people that say things just like that. Also, with age, many people come to the conclusion that "death is part of living" and nothing they can do about it...

So yea, that's my opinion... for now!

Sorry for quoting myself, but too late to edit.

To answer the "but klein said intentional homicide" questions... I think that he and SB are saying that to scare certain people. Intentional homicide is the highest charge that would be charged. Even people who don't spend every day on here are atleast a little aware that there are different degrees of homicide and manslaughter and that certain acts would be classified higher or lower on the spectrum. So, if VK (or any of the others) are actually guilty of causing an accident due to being inebriated (or even not) but chose to cover it up, that would be much lower a charge than intentional homicide. So by klein and LE saying we can get you for intentional homicide, I think they are hoping one of the 4 is going to say "whoa whoa whoa, I might be guilty of DUI and accidentally running him over, but I sure as heck didn't intentionally kill him and I'm not going down for that!".

I may be totally off and something much much more sinister happened, but right now, this is my opinion and I believe it covers most of the things we are sure of (granted, we are not sure of much at all).

 

[carbuff]

It carries no more weight legally, but we have to accept he does know significantly more about the case than anyone here. For starters he has spent hours with the 4 POI's.

When did LE last release any statements?

Well, no, I don't really accept that. He's tried to insert himself closely into the case and make it sound like he knows everything, but I think it's all blowing smoke.

 

[observation]

Well, no, I don't really accept that. He's tried to insert himself closely into the case and make it sound like he knows everything, but I think it's all blowing smoke.

Well, he didn't exactly "insert himself" into the case- he was actually hired by the parents. He knows a lot more than we do. I say that knowing the incredible folks here at WS. He personally interviewed all the main players and directed the line of questioning, so that's a layer of knowledge and potential probes we are not privy to, IMHO.


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[KatieLiz]

I am completely blown away by that Q&A! I now firmly believe he was run over by VK's truck and then transported somewhere in the bed of the truck. The only remaining questions I have are 1) who was driving the truck? 2) were they under the influence of some substance? And 3) where is this baby's body?

I think the answers to numbers 1 and 2 will explain why an accident was covered up.

None of this will explain their cavalier attitude to the loss of a child however. If I had to place bets on the answers, VK was driving and impaired. He knows it was his fault and is trying to hide his guilt which is coming off as uncaring. As for JA, I think this just happened to be a lucky accident. She was probably already dating her new husband and wanted the single/child free life and VK accidentally made that happen for her. As for IR, I think he was inebriated and really has no clue what actually happened. He may have even gone to bed before the accident happened. I believe RW falls in the same category as IR, but has made the mistake of making comments that come off as uncaring. The comments are horrible, but I hate to admit it, I know some crabby old people that say things just like that. Also, with age, many people come to the conclusion that "death is part of living" and nothing they can do about it...

So yea, that's my opinion... for now!

Yes, to me the truck information was HUGE. And the fact the timeline is basically moved up to after JA's mom saw Deorr on Wednesday... Also- they have searched Clover Creek motel and someone said that Dennis Kunz had a residence in Montplier (where Clover Creek is), then someone asked if they were going to search the Bear Lake area near Montplier and he said no comment... And no comment regarding searches of campgrounds in the Montplier area. We were talking about this last week and thinking Clover Creek meant more than just a slip up... VERY interesting!

I also found these bits interesting: not a single picture of Deorr from the trip, a lot of cell phone activity on Thursday after phone being off all night, Vernal making calls other than to 911, Jessica emptying her pockets on Vernals truck when he claimed to be 1.5 miles away, 3 cell phone chargers were purchased, no unused diapers at campsite, 2 men were confirmed at the Silver Dollar (neither was Vernal), "no comment" when asked about an injury and scarring to Jessica's hand? But confirmation she wasn't injured when 911 was called? So much info in that one... Just wow.

 

[KatieLiz]

There was some interesting tidbits about Isaac during Kleins Q&A as well: he factory reset his phone?!

 

[Paulas88]

There was some interesting tidbits about Isaac during Kleins Q&A as well: he factory reset his phone?!

Yes, he did a factory reset on his phone. IDK what he wanted to hide.