ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #6

[neesaki]

Here's the one I was referring to. I had just read about it an hour ago (didn't make note of the date) and thought it was the same case.
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/missing-father-and-toddler-found-safe/

Well thank goodness they're safe, at least we have one story with a happy ending.

 

[slashkiss]

This just reminds me of the Joshua Davis case. The toddler disappeared from a house full of family and friends and there was never any trace of him. Did he wander off? Was he taken? It's been years and there is nothing. I can just imagine that every day that goes by evidence is being lost (nature) and media attention/funding dwindles. It is terrible to think that this little boy may never be found.


I can't imagine what the family is going through. The death of a child would be be unbearable so I can't even fathom what a missing child would do to someone. The hope and never knowing just makes closure impossible.

 

[neesaki]

<modsnip>
I talked to my law partner- criminal defense attorney. I asked him if he was hired by parents of a missing kid who insisted they were innocent, but are POIs and simply want help navigating the system and getting answers, how would he handle representing them.

He said: no polygraphs. No DNA samples. No searches of homes or cars without a warrant. All questions are written and go through him.

I'm sure most of you can see how that would terribly hinder a missing person's investigation.

Thank you, gitana1. I can definitely see this, as you say if they don't voluntarily cooperate, the POI are basically behaving as though they have something to hide and look more suspicious to LE. This could prevent LE from focusing elsewhere and impede the investigation. Not something parents want to do if they want to find their child.

 

[Dee10]

When we are talking about the law or legal issues, who better to have respond but a lawyer. ~ Thank you gitana1!

 

[starfire]

It could be that nobody besides the parents were still at the campsite to meet the emergency people. If somebody that was there initially realizes LE is about to arrive and they were afraid of LE they may have said "Im sorry but I need to go".

I imagine this scenario could only involve IR. And if the parents didn't really know him before the trip, it seems like they would have gone ape if, right after their son disappears, he's like "I think I will just mosey on along..." and books out of there. :thinking:

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I am also divided on getting the advice of an attorney. I understand both sides with the pros and cons. There are cases where LE can build a case against the wrong people in the right circumstances. While we can all point out the cases like Elizabeth Smart, Polly Klass, or Adam Walsh where the parents suffered through the suspicions of LE and kept going, there are other cases where the suspicion takes on a lasting doubt. The proof isn't there, but it doesn't stop the branding if nothing is found. HaLeigh Cummings' case is one such example. Her paternal family is still being maligned after 6 long years (They certainly should be considered victims as much as the parents and grandparents of this case). I have to wonder how the case would have gone if they had gotten a decent lawyer and not tried to wade through the pitfalls and the vipers waiting to attack them (and continue to attack them today).

I don't know what I would do if it happened to me, but I probably would hire an attorney to at least help guide me through the maze of press and other things relating to the public. I would still want to take a LDT and work with LE, but I believe we all have to weigh the consequences of trying to navigate things when we are already stressed to the max. Mistakes are made. People often say things they do not mean. And things can take ugly turns on a dime with John Q. Public.

 

[katydid23]

NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.. nothing! I cannot see how it would hinder an investigation.. no one believes those closest to the victim anyway. Innocent people dont want to spend the money on a lawyer, often. They will say, "why should i hire atty Smith? i am innocent! Then it gets ugly..How did everyone "cooperating" help any( or this) investigation? There are always suspicions.. There is a LOT of LE and one of you ( the parent) get a lawyer.. jmo

I think it would absolutely hinder an investigation. If the parents are truly innocent, but they lawyer up, then clam up, and refuse poly's, refuse to face to face interviews, refuse to allow LE access to homes/cars, then LE cannot clear them immediately. And that totally hinders the investigation from moving forward and finding other possibilities. JMO

 

[ClaireNC]

DEORRS FATHER "MY SON HAS NOT BEEN FOUND"
http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/08/deorrs-father-my-son-has-not-been-found/

I'm glad they were prompt to release this. My prayers for the family and missing DeOrr continue.

Thanks aaarrrggghhh for posting this.
Just FYI, Here is the FB page for East Idaho News. https://www.facebook.com/EastIdahoNews?fref=ts

 

[Jules71]

<modsnip>

I talked to my law partner- criminal defense attorney. I asked him if he was hired by parents of a missing kid who insisted they were innocent, but are POIs and simply want help navigating the system and getting answers, how would he handle representing them.

He said: no polygraphs. No DNA samples. No searches of homes or cars without a warrant. All questions are written and go through him.

I'm sure most of you can see how that would terribly hinder a missing person's investigation.

Curious what he would say if the case was 3 weeks in and those things had already been done and the questioning was intensifying and speculation was running rampant that the parent had something to do with it. I know I would obtain a lawyer. Akaik I am sane and rational and I most definitely care about my children.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

 

[rkf]

Wouldn't an EMT bag be something that is often stolen if left in a vehicle? The person stealing it wouldn't necessarily know what is in the bag, just that the bag may contain something valuable. A druggie looking for drugs wouldn't stop and inspect the bag right there, they would take it someplace to go through it.

I once had a brief case stolen from my car. There was nothing valuable in it. Just papers. It was found a week or so later thrown on the side of the road.

I personally don't think the EMT bag is any way related to Deorr's disappearance. It sounds to me like it was an unrelated crime of opportunity that was blown out of proportion by the gossiping public.

I think it was blown out of proportion by the parents/person off camera. The general public didn't know anything about said "rumor" until it was mentioned during the interview. That it was so important to them is the only thing that makes me think it could be in any way related to DeOrr's disappearance. But I think it's unrelated, too.

 

[Sillybilly]

Please be courteous to each other. If you disagree with a post, state your opinion politely and move on. No need for snark !!:tyou:

 

[rkf]

just because I've missed a few threads, can someone verify that all the "EMT bag" and "break-in" posts are speculation? or did I miss a news article somewhere? which is highly likely lol...TIA!

The speculation is based on a comment on a MSM's facebook page. Hope that helps and is within TOS. The comments have since been removed, so I can't post a link.

 

[rkf]

What I don't get is that NO ONE on any board or SM or anything that I've read has heard anything or knew anything about these so-called "rumors." Who exactly was gossiping or whatever? The locals in Leadore? The searchers? And if was so gossipy, wouldn't someone have shared these rumors at some point during these past three weeks on SM (especially since so many people have been conjecturing and trying to figure out their significance)? Not one person on any SM has been able to say what the rumors actually were because no one knows or has heard anything. The only person who has shed any light is TBC and that was just recently. Rumors and gossip normally spread like wildfire - in order to feel the need to clear up a rumor, the rumor ought not be some unknown tidbit of information that no one has even heard. That makes no sense to me. We still really have no idea the significance of the EMT bag. Is the rumor that JM and DK were responsible for the theft? Is the rumor that the stolen EMT bag was found at their campsite? Is the rumor that some of the supplies from the EMT bag were found at their campsite? Is the rumor that only the actual bag, and not the supplies, was stolen? It goes on and on - there are a million scenarios. Somehow it has to relate to the case or there would be no point in even bringing it up, but that's just my opinion. I think whatever happened, it happened either Thursday night or Friday before Deorr was reported missing, but that is purely speculation on my part. It doesn't make sense for it to have happened after he went missing, imo. And it doesn't necessarily mean that is has to do with the parents either - it could be IR, or it could just be plain old coincidence but there has to be something that someone might think would link it to the case. MOO.

ETA: didn't see Vail's post until after I wrote this - if it's not okay, delete it. It's not so much based on TBC's comments - more just trying to figure out why it's a "rumor"

ITA. Also,it has been suggested that family members were posting on SM because that's where the rumors were circulating. I haven't seen any of those rumors on SM (although I have not done an exhaustive search). Googling the rumors and last name doesn't bring anything up except people like us trying to figure out what the rumors are! The focus on the rumors is way more interesting than the "rumors" IMO. Why are these rumors so bothersome? How do they affect the search for DeOrr? Why "dispel" rumors in your one interview that most people have never even heard of? It's like inception - planting rumors rather than squelching them.

 

[rkf]

I think the "rumors" being addressed in that interview were responding to community "talk". I am just speculating from things I've read online, but I think there were questions raised regarding the family by locals involved in the search. I think anytime a search is made up of community members (especially in a small town) then you will have more of that kind of thing than in a larger city where the searchers are not necessarily familiar with the family or each other.

I agree with you that I don't think there was even one social media site or comment on any articles that raised questions about a EMT bag until the interview. Having the question ignored, either on purpose or by accidental omission, just made it more of a topic than addressing it probably would have.

Also, given the absence of info of much substance of any kind forthcoming, any available details are going to be discussed at length in trying to figure out what could have happened...because that is all we have. There are just bits and pieces in this one that we have to go on and try to fit together.

I agree about the small town, but it's my understanding that the town only has about 100 people and the family and IR are from Idaho Falls, 2 1/2 hours away. I thought the SAR teams came from all over, not Leadore itself (please correct me if I'm wrong.) I think the only people who know the POIs are from Idaho Falls. I believe some of their friends/acquaintances came to the campsite early on to help search, so maybe those people were gossiping. Odd to come all that way to look for your friend's child just to start unfounded rumors IMO.

 

[Cardinal47]

I don't understand your question about how Idaho works regarding a body or no body. Do you mean in order to determine he is dead? Some states take seven years before a person can be determined dead.

Sorry I wasn't clear in my question.

Some states will prosecute a case if they have enough evidence against somebody they feel killed another.

Other state are hesitant to prosecute a case with no body. Texas for instance.

This is some interesting reading.

http://www.nobodymurdercases.com/index.html

And then this case.

http://www.thecrimereport.org/news/inside-criminal-justice/2011-03-murderedand-missing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_conviction_without_a_body

And then there is this down in Texas.

http://www.tdcaa.com/node/1497

 

[Netsleuth2.0]

ITA. Also,it has been suggested that family members were posting on SM because that's where the rumors were circulating. I haven't seen any of those rumors on SM (although I have not done an exhaustive search). Googling the rumors and last name doesn't bring anything up except people like us trying to figure out what the rumors are! The focus on the rumors is way more interesting than the "rumors" IMO. Why are these rumors so bothersome? How do they affect the search for DeOrr? Why "dispel" rumors in your one interview that most people have never even heard of? It's like inception - planting rumors rather than squelching them.

Possibly unbeknownst to sleuthers on this thread, but there are actually several groups on SM that are solely dedicated to discussing "rumours" in this case. In reality though, the rumours are created amongst the posters themselves. There is little put out there as fact by LE at this point. The majority of the discussions I've seen on SM are heresay and utterly ridiculous insinuations. Both if which make me glad to be able to read and discuss reasonable theories on WS.

 

[rkf]

AS far as GGP it could have been a couple of reasons to include him. If it is a family that likes to camp perhaps doing this as a group is something they have always done. Maybe this was a new spot to baby Deorr's parents but they had heard GGP mention that he had been there years ago and it was a great spot, etc.

Perhaps, GGP can no longer drive so he told them he would have a friend come along (maybe knowing the friend likes to fish) so they could meet them there.

Some families have small homes that are not conducive to guests and hotels are not in the budget, so camping may be a way to have family visits in a beautiful setting.

Maybe GGP has a camper that can be pulled on his vehicle that can be used by the family which would be another reason to invite him. In our family, the ones with the most gear to share get invited more often!

My long winded point is that having GGP along in itself is not really so unusual, especially if they are family that gets together this way routinely.

I'm not a camper, but I don't find it unusual at all that ggp was along. I do find it unusual that IR was also along, since DK and JM had never met him and I would not think ggp would need a friend to entertain him, since he had his family. They all came from Idaho Falls, so I would think the family could drive ggp's truck and camper, leaving DK's truck at ggp's house. Maybe they were all expecting to come and go at different times, but that would mean IR would be expected to look out for ggp when the family wasn't there. In fairness, before I saw the doorway interview with IR, I wouldn't have thought his presence was so strange. But IR doesn't seem like a great conversationalist, doesn't appear to be capable of caring for ggp in DK and JM's absence, and wasn't needed to drive ggp's truck if the family have driven to the campsite together, so I don't understand what he added to the camping trip.

 

[rkf]

This case is so sad and also very strange because the boy is missing and there seems to be no answers from FBI or LE yet as to what has happened to him.

What adds to the strangeness is the few "facts" we have are very confusing. It is not very clear and a lot of things are "muddy" about just the basics.

In an effort to try to help clear up some of the basics it may be helpful to list just the "muddy" items. So am going to list just the things which were not clear enough to know what happened.

-We dont know for sure how many vehicles drove to the camping area. Most likely 2 and maybe even 3.

-We dont know if all the vehicles drove in a train OR did they all arrange to meet at the campground.

-We dont know what day or time anybody arrived at the campground

-We know at least some other unknown people were near the camping area because we had cremain dumpers and we had an alleged theft of an EMT bag. But we dont know how many other people were in the vicinity. Was it just these 2 other unknown people or were there other unknown campers or fisherman nearby.
Its a mystery how many other unknown people were nearby at the time of him going missing.

-When Deorr jr. went missing and 911 calls made, we dont know who and how many vehicles were still remaining at the campsite.

-When emergency people responded we dont know who and how many vehicles were still at the campsite to meet them. We can assume at least the parents and 1 truck were still there to meet them but beyond that it is just not clear if anybody was still at the campsite.

To expand on this point, consider this option. It could be that nobody besides the parents were still at the campsite to meet the emergency people. If somebody that was there initially realizes LE is about to arrive and they were afraid of LE they may have said "Im sorry but I need to go".

There are many people that dont want to ever confront LE in any capacity.

The point is we just dont know one way or the other. It is another unknown.

-We dont know about the alleged sighting at the store of the boy and a man. Was it them or not them? Was the time 6 or not 6?
Was the day the day before?

-We dont know if an ATV was brought as part of the camping trip.

-We dont know about any camping or fishing gear that was brought. We dont even know about any other items that would be typical for a camping trip.

-We dont know if a tent was setup when boy went missing.

-We dont know if a campfire was going when he went missing.

- And we can add other unknowns to this list.

I am not sure how this helps us except to point out that these unknowns become important and it also adds to why a lot of people have questions about this case. There are a lot of basic things that we just dont know anything about what happened.

All we basically have is some people decided to go camping and a boy is missing.

IIRC, the cremains were dumped and the EMT bag stolen (unsubstantiated rumor) after DeOrr disappeared, while people were searching for him. (Bag = Saturday, Cremains = IDK)

 

[bluesneakers]

I'm not a camper, but I don't find it unusual at all that ggp was along. I do find it unusual that IR was also along, since DK and JM had never met him and I would not think ggp would need a friend to entertain him, since he had his family. They all came from Idaho Falls, so I would think the family could drive ggp's truck and camper, leaving DK's truck at ggp's house. Maybe they were all expecting to come and go at different times, but that would mean IR would be expected to look out for ggp when the family wasn't there. In fairness, before I saw the doorway interview with IR, I wouldn't have thought his presence was so strange. But IR doesn't seem like a great conversationalist, doesn't appear to be capable of caring for ggp in DK and JM's absence, and wasn't needed to drive ggp's truck if the family have driven to the campsite together, so I don't understand what he added to the camping trip.

Friendship. You know how you hang out with your friends to talk and joke, whatever, camping is just like that. A person doesn't have to 'add' anything other than being present.

 

[Cardinal47]

If this case was going to be as big as Caylee's, it would have happened already. Deorr's been missing for nearly a month, and his case has barely gotten national coverage. It just doesn't have the elements to appeal to the media outside of Idaho. Deorr is not believed to be abducted, the parents are not talking to the media, LE is quiet, etc.

I think that case became national when Cindy Anthony entered the picture. I remember fixing dinner and hearing her screaming when the police first arrived at her house.

That set the stage and now I can't remember just what she yelled.

George and Cindy kept the ball rolling on that missing child case which ended so very sadly for all of us that followed along.