ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow - Tylee Ryan - Tammy Daybell - Charles Vallow - *Arrests* #67

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We have a clear indicator (from BOTH sides) that this late evidence they are wrangling about does matter.

The remedy being sought by the defense is to exclude the late evidence from being used by the state - and if it didn't have any importance either way, the prosecution would just say "okay" and wouldn't care. Instead, the prosecutors are fighting to keep the evidence in play, trying to tell the judge that (a) they already gave the evidence before, (b) the evidence isn't really important, and (c) his deadline wasn't really when he said it was.

The fact they are fighting tells us it definitely must meet the standard of materiality.

As for the responses offered, the idea that most of this was just "repeat" disclosure should be easy to resolve as to its truth or not. IF THAT'S THE TRUTH, it's all a moot issue. Just prove it. That's how they win the motion. HOWEVER, if the prosecution is blowing smoke on their claim this is just repeat stuff, imo they will (and should) get slammed hard (not only re the case, but personally).

If they have to go beyond the "already disclosed" idea, I'm thinking they could have problems.

The idea that the state could redefine the judge's deadline based on oral conversations in court, using any possible slip in terminology when speaking off the cuff, rather than sticking with the judge's written order to both sides, is going to be much harder imo. I don't think the judge will have much patience for the argument as a whole, but we will see what happens.

The claim that it's evidence that isn't important is an awful claim. The Solomonic response is "Okay, if you say it isn't important, I'll just toss it and no one should care." Oops.

They also argued that even if the judge does rule they missed the deadline, it's no biggie and it should be more or less ignored. I don't think that lack of respect for deadlines and orders by the judge is going to help them at all, especially with the dissed judge making the ruling.

All of this JMO. We will see in a few days how the judge sees it - that's the only opinion that matters.

Oh, and by the way -- Losing on this motion shouldn't be a game changer. That's assuming the prosecution has the layers and layers of evidence it claims it does, and that this stuff in question is just some extra. Overall, this looks like a fairly obvious result given the many blatant illegal actions of the defendants. IMO the biggest danger - the one thing to avoid - is screwing with the defendant rights, which I think the judge is working hard to avoid, as it can get cases tossed and convictions overturned.

I agree with your read on the prosecution's adolescent attitude toward the judge- like they are haggling with a teacher on due dates for a paper. They are not only disrespectful, they are putting the judge in a position where it could begin to appear he unfairly excuses them.

I mean, at the very least they should have begged for mercy for not reading the order carefully and being mislead by conflicting statements. That would be taking responsibility for their lateness.

However, I think the prosecution has nailed it discribing the defense strategies of 1) constantly bringing up mental health while saying it's not part of the defense in the guilt phase and 2) constantly putting out public negative statements about their client, like calling her a witch, falsely claiming the prosecution did this, then citing the public's negative biases they caused as a reason she can't get a fair trial.

MOO
 
Hi. Just a different perspective from what I see. I don’t watch the good L. Don’t watch anything else about this case on YouTube.

I believe the prosecution hasn’t shown us that they are “prepared”. Neither has the Judge. Only ones running the case so far are defense counselors.

I do see a lack of willingness to prosecute and bring them to justice by all involved.
And I am not convinced they will be in jail for the rest of their lives.

As for LDS control or involvement, that’s where Chad got his ideas. That can’t be ignored now.

I am hoping for a good jury with common sense,

But there are always reminders of Casey Anthony and OJ Simpson juries.

I understand the fear and anxiety.

If it's any help, consider the probable cause hearing.

Prior was his best nasty self, and well prepared. But the prosecution stood up sturdily.

The evidence presented was primarily from the dead coconspirator's phone and Gibb and Warnock on events surrounding JJ's murder. There are so many more witnesses and devices.

I am curious to see is what the Audrey B. Kerfuffle is all about.

The other bit of suspense is to see if defense attacks Gibb's credibility or builds her up as a reliable alibi.

I guess it is not in dispute that Lori was in HI when Tammy was murdered. So it is also intriguing to me to find out if her Tammy defense is more the guys did it, or she died naturally.

But most of all, I want justice and peace for all victims.

I don't think either defendant will walk.

MOO
 
I understand the fear and anxiety.

If it's any help, consider the probable cause hearing.

Prior was his best nasty self, and well prepared. But the prosecution stood up sturdily.

The evidence presented was primarily from the dead coconspirator's phone and Gibb and Warnock on events surrounding JJ's murder. There are so many more witnesses and devices.

I am curious to see is what the Audrey B. Kerfuffle is all about.

The other bit of suspense is to see if defense attacks Gibb's credibility or builds her up as a reliable alibi.

I guess it is not in dispute that Lori was in HI when Tammy was murdered. So it is also intriguing to me to find out if her Tammy defense is more the guys did it, or she died naturally.

But most of all, I want justice and peace for all victims.

I don't think either defendant will walk.

MOO

Two questions

I am forgetting since we have three years under our belts. Has the prosecution brought in any true experts to assist?

Secondly, what is the Audrey B kerfuffle, anyway. ... Is this Audrey B in Hawaii???
 
Hi. Just a different perspective from what I see. I don’t watch the good L. Don’t watch anything else about this case on YouTube.

I believe the prosecution hasn’t shown us that they are “prepared”. Neither has the Judge. Only ones running the case so far are defense counselors.

I do see a lack of willingness to prosecute and bring them to justice by all involved.
And I am not convinced they will be in jail for the rest of their lives.

As for LDS control or involvement, that’s where Chad got his ideas. That can’t be ignored now.

I am hoping for a good jury with common sense,

But there are always reminders of Casey Anthony and OJ Simpson juries.
I agree the prosecution has made mistakes. imo that doesn't translate to a lack of willingness to prosecute and bring them to justice.

I am confident there will be a good jury with plenty of common sense.

I remind myself that we only know a fraction of the evidence.
 
Two questions

I am forgetting since we have three years under our belts. Has the prosecution brought in any true experts to assist?

Secondly, what is the Audrey B kerfuffle, anyway. ... Is this Audrey B in Hawaii???

Experts:
I believe the prosecution brought in CAST experts from the FBI to emphasize the validity and accuracy of the GPS phone data. (I don't remember what CAST stands for, if that illustrates how superficially I know this.) They also retained that psychiatrist (Werner?) who was famous for examining Smart's kidnapper and finding him competent to stand trial after years. This psychiatrist has not examined Lori Vallow but presumably she could be ordered by the court to submit to an evaluation if defense tries to slip in mental health or competency defenses. That psychiatrist already previewed an opinion about her ability to form criminal intent at the time of the crimes. He probably came to that conclusion the same way a lot of us have- seeing her in interviews, podcasts, on recorded phone lines- and observing deception. (Damn scientific approach to deception IMO- with freaking trust levels assigned to people to guide how much to deceive!)

Those are the experts I recall- but I imagine there are more.

Audrey B:

The defense complained that they had not received in discovery* an FBI interview with Audrey B. She was one of Lori's HI alibi witness. They said it was highly significant because the defense said she had exercised her 5th amendment right before the grand jury.

*I would guess they meant they got it late and/or already had reports but not a recording, because the defense characterized her statements as untrue.

The prosecution said the defense is falsely claiming that Audrey B didn't give testimony before the grand jury, and asserted that she certainly did testify. (Couldn't both be true? She answered questions/gave testimony except when she didn't because it was self-incriminating.)

The prosecution said it was inappropriate and creating a bias by characterizing her statement(s) to LE as untrue. A witness gives the testimony, and a jury is supposed to evaluate it without being prejudiced as the defense did in their motion.

Whatever is going on- defense really want to throw Audrey out, and the prosecution really wants it clarified that she gave testimony to the grand jury.

MOO

Edited to add the most interesting intersection of those responses:

Audrey had a perfect 100% trust level! So we can presume she was given the unvarnished story!
 
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Ooooh, a G4.3 Light on the gullible scale? ;)
They had a number of different scales.

"(Daybell) is the one who designates light and dark scores, vibration levels and trust scales," an investigator said.
...
"Chad and Lori also believed that regular temple visits increased their 'vibrations' and their ability to teleport."
...
Gibb said Daybell had even invented a "light" and "dark" scale ranging from 0 to 100% to represent a person's trustworthiness. She said Daybell and Vallow would frequently compliment her and tell her how wonderful she was, saying she had earned a trust level of 97%.


 
They had a number of different scales.

"(Daybell) is the one who designates light and dark scores, vibration levels and trust scales," an investigator said.
...
"Chad and Lori also believed that regular temple visits increased their 'vibrations' and their ability to teleport."
...
Gibb said Daybell had even invented a "light" and "dark" scale ranging from 0 to 100% to represent a person's trustworthiness. She said Daybell and Vallow would frequently compliment her and tell her how wonderful she was, saying she had earned a trust level of 97%.



I didn't remember this info... thank you!
 
Audrey Barattiero is talked about in this video starting at about 1hr 43min



Hmmm. I can't understand what Littlebear is saying here.

He comments that Audrey called Chad weekly and points out that Chad was married, but does not answer when Lauren (interviewer) followed up with "Do you think Chad had affairs beyond Lori?"

He says Chad wanted to keep Audrey "in the loop" (what loop?) because she has never been married.

Furthermore, according to Littlebear, she was a sister of, ????? I can't make it out. Can anyone hear what Littlebear says is the reason Audrey was kept in the loop? And- what loop was he referring to, and did he consider himself part of that loop?

PS: He also asserted that Audrey and so many others were on the witness list because they were in so much contact with Chad. But earlier in the interview he stated that he and his wife were in regular contact with Chad until Tammy was killed. So, either he is wrong about the witness list inclusion criteria or he exaggerated his contact before Tammy's murder. My guess is it was more about the criteria- with a dash of exaggeration thrown in.

MOO
 
Furthermore, according to Littlebear, she was a sister of, ????? I can't make it out. Can anyone hear what Littlebear says is the reason Audrey was kept in the loop? And- what loop was he referring to, and did he consider himself part of that loop?
SBM. IIRC, SL said in the interview in question that AB was related to "dream girls", which was important to Chad. I'm not sure if SL was referring to the women from the PAP circuit that specialized in dream interpretation, but he obviously knew who they were.
 
I've been curious as to what happened to that close friend of CD's who kept saying, "I am here to tell you I feel totally vindicated in standing up for Chad." Wasn't that guy very public about being "in-the-know" about warnings, dreams and visions and such??
 
“I've been curious as to what happened to that close friend of CD's who kept saying, "I am here to tell you I feel totally vindicated in standing up for Chad." Wasn't that guy very public about being "in-the-know" about warnings, dreams and visions and such??”

(Sorry I didn’t quote you correctly. I don’t know how it all works).

I think it was Christopher Parrett of AVOW. MOO.

 
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I understand the fear and anxiety.

If it's any help, consider the probable cause hearing.

Prior was his best nasty self, and well prepared. But the prosecution stood up sturdily.

The evidence presented was primarily from the dead coconspirator's phone and Gibb and Warnock on events surrounding JJ's murder. There are so many more witnesses and devices.

I am curious to see is what the Audrey B. Kerfuffle is all about.

The other bit of suspense is to see if defense attacks Gibb's credibility or builds her up as a reliable alibi.

I guess it is not in dispute that Lori was in HI when Tammy was murdered. So it is also intriguing to me to find out if her Tammy defense is more the guys did it, or she died naturally.

But most of all, I want justice and peace for all victims.

I don't think either defendant will walk.

MOO
I agree that I don't think either will walk, but I do think there's a chance LV gets a lighter sentence because she can claim she thought Alex and CD were going to hide he children at a safe home (like many of us prayed was the case) and Alex can't tell a different story. CD can, but the children were buried his backyard and he was the one who dreamed up the light/dark system to begin with. I can see LV's defense being that she trusted CD and Alex to take her children to safety, and she had no idea they died. She's a snake. Same thing with CV's death--there's no one left to testify against her.

I don't think CD has a chance in hell of escaping the harshest sentence. There's too much tying him to the children's deaths, and to Tammy's death. He can't throw LV under the bus in the same way LV can throw him under the bus.

Just all MOO.
 
I agree that I don't think either will walk, but I do think there's a chance LV gets a lighter sentence because she can claim she thought Alex and CD were going to hide he children at a safe home (like many of us prayed was the case) and Alex can't tell a different story. CD can, but the children were buried his backyard and he was the one who dreamed up the light/dark system to begin with. I can see LV's defense being that she trusted CD and Alex to take her children to safety, and she had no idea they died. She's a snake. Same thing with CV's death--there's no one left to testify against her.

I don't think CD has a chance in hell of escaping the harshest sentence. There's too much tying him to the children's deaths, and to Tammy's death. He can't throw LV under the bus in the same way LV can throw him under the bus.

Just all MOO.
I also agree, but I think both will be found guilty of all charges. Taking what we know from Chads PH, and the release of calls, CCTV and Loris demeanour when caught in Hawaii and subsequent extradition to Idaho, she knew they were dead and I fully believe she killed them herself.

ETA I also think she justified each death in that scheming brain of hers. I also think she was the one who shot Charles.
 
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