ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow, Tylee Ryan, Tammy Daybell, Charles Vallow *Arrests* #72

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cottonweaver said:
bit extra from HTC '

Chad crying so hard … ohhhhhh, tears' ( the full amateur dramatics. bet his acting is as bad as his writing)
https://twitter.com/x/status/1651978021044387840

ambiguous ' Send the corner, red house on the corner' ( coroner or corner?)
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What’s with people on 9-1-1 calls always saying I’m THE ______ (fill-in-the-blank)? Chad said I’m THE husband. Patsy Ramsey said I’m THE mother. Wouldn’t it be more natural to say I’m HER husband or I’m HER mother?

Things that make you go hmmmm…?
 
KMouse said:
How long after death does it take for rigor to set in?
I am gobsmacked that a person of Tammy's age could die suddenly at home, does not have any health issues and can go straight to cremation without an autopsy and then is determined to have died of natural causes? If you wanted to get away with murder that's the place to do it!
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well...also
You can actually shoot someone dead in AZ no questions asked.:oops:
 
KonaHonu said:
Law professor says clearly not enough evidence to support a conspiracy conviction at this point. Prosecutor says there is. I agree with the professor.

She is charged with conspiracy to murder 3 people and actually murdering three people as well as grand theft. I think grand theft has been proven so she will be convicted of that. I don't think we have seen any evidence that she actually committed the murders. We have seen plenty of evidence that Alex actually did the killing.

Conspiracy requires a meeting of the minds, an agreement to commit the murders, and an overt act by one of the conspirators. We have an overt act. But an agreement would have to occur BEFORE the crime. I'm not sure if that is an actual requirement in the law but it is irrational to say that the agreement could be made after the crime. It just does not make sense.

Everyone keeps pointing to things that happened after the murders as evidence of an agreement. She danced at her wedding. She lied to police in November. Yada, yada, yada. Yes, those things make her look like an awful person. And I think she is an awful person. Show me something where Chad says "Let's get rid of Tammy and your kids" and Lori says "that would be awesome."

The prosecution's case against Lori seems to be based on showing character assassination (talk about taking the easy route) and showing gory pictures of the victims. I'm sure the pictures are horrendous. But that is not evidence of a conspiracy involving Lori.

I can easily see a situation where Alex acted alone or conspired with Chad to help Lori without her knowledge. If she truly believed the world would be ending, and I think she did, they could easily have convinced her the kids were somewhere safe while they prepared to start gathering people.

One thing from today's testimony that will be interesting is that Garth Daybell saw Tammy vomiting just as Chaad said she was. If he testifies to that it will really undermine most of the prosecution's case which seems to be focused on her being completely healthy. But I think there is plenty to convict Chad.
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Bringing out from your post for focus:
"Conspiracy requires a meeting of the minds, an agreement to commit the murders, and an overt act by one of the conspirators. We have an overt act. But an agreement would have to occur BEFORE the crime. I'm not sure if that is an actual requirement in the law but it is irrational to say that the agreement could be made after the crime. It just does not make sense."

I might have been with you on your opinion, but there was more than one murder. Was she 'fine with it' after each murder? Was she fine with it after Tylee's murder amd then demured? and was she then fine with it after JJ's murder and demured again? And then Tammy's? That's beyond reasonable in my opinion.
 
Gardenista said:
For the life of me I can't remember where I heard this (and I just listened to whatever I heard in the past couple of days), but it was said they were there over Thanksgiving.
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Ok, I have Chad being photographed at SLC airport on Tuesday 11/26 soI think that fits that they flew directly from LA to Hawaii on Dec 1.
 
Luna20 said:
Who would wear zebra anything for their own trial?? It’s not Siegfried & Roy.
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LVD has to be the most striking, sexy, and beautiful woman in the room. She obviously thinks that looking "wild" and carefree is the best way to beat this.

What is the ratio of men to women on this jury again?

Personally, I think LVD is a living portrait of Dorian Grey, she looks more evil to me each day. Her mouth turns a certain way, she is looking harder and harder. Jail hasn't been kind to the "Goddess".
 
KonaHonu said:
Law professor says clearly not enough evidence to support a conspiracy conviction at this point. Prosecutor says there is. I agree with the professor.

She is charged with conspiracy to murder 3 people and actually murdering three people as well as grand theft. I think grand theft has been proven so she will be convicted of that. I don't think we have seen any evidence that she actually committed the murders. We have seen plenty of evidence that Alex actually did the killing.

Conspiracy requires a meeting of the minds, an agreement to commit the murders, and an overt act by one of the conspirators. We have an overt act. But an agreement would have to occur BEFORE the crime. I'm not sure if that is an actual requirement in the law but it is irrational to say that the agreement could be made after the crime. It just does not make sense.

Everyone keeps pointing to things that happened after the murders as evidence of an agreement. She danced at her wedding. She lied to police in November. Yada, yada, yada. Yes, those things make her look like an awful person. And I think she is an awful person. Show me something where Chad says "Let's get rid of Tammy and your kids" and Lori says "that would be awesome."

The prosecution's case against Lori seems to be based on showing character assassination (talk about taking the easy route) and showing gory pictures of the victims. I'm sure the pictures are horrendous. But that is not evidence of a conspiracy involving Lori.

I can easily see a situation where Alex acted alone or conspired with Chad to help Lori without her knowledge. If she truly believed the world would be ending, and I think she did, they could easily have convinced her the kids were somewhere safe while they prepared to start gathering people.

One thing from today's testimony that will be interesting is that Garth Daybell saw Tammy vomiting just as Chaad said she was. If he testifies to that it will really undermine most of the prosecution's case which seems to be focused on her being completely healthy. But I think there is plenty to convict Chad.
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The murders happened 2 or more weeks apart. It is almost impossible to believe that Lori was not participating ahead of JJ's murder, since she was already lying about Tylee's.

(Which, for the record. I believe she also participated in ahead of the murder, such as by taking control of her money. But let's assume we agree there is no conspiracy in advance for Tylee as an exercise....)

If by this exercise we are assuming Lori was lying about Tylee's whereabouts only after the murder occurred, how does she explain saying she had Alex pick up JJ? And pulling him out of school? Then changing the story to home school when records were offered? Why did she site behaviors that others thought were normal in JJ - or that nobody witnessed or believed- as "proof" he was a zombie ahead of his murder?

These things are not "yada-yada"s.

It appears Lori was well aware and furious that Alex didn't shoot Tammy.

And, of course, Lori was goddess in charge of of spreading the justification gospel. All of this was well in advance.

If she had taken that route, I think she could have (truthfully) brought up mitigation. She was abused her whole life. She was criminally responsible IMO and aware she was breaking the law, but I believe she was delusional and thought she was righteous, and everyone else didn't understand. She did use Chad's teachings. But she still did the crimes. So mitigating factors would only have taken her so far.

I don't get how anyone can deny fore-planning.

MOO
 
KonaHonu said:
One of the reasons I really want to see solid evidence that Lori participated in a plan is because it appears to me that Chad is a master manipulator. I think it is very plausible that there was no plan at all and Chad orchestrated everything through manipulating Alex. He did not only manipulate Lori and Alex but also his kids, possibly Tammy, MG, JR and many others.
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Lori cutting JJ slowly out of his own life shows her callous intent.

-Killed his father (was giddy with delight at LE interview hours later)
-Stopped him from seeing his grandparents.
-killed his sister (who IMO was his main care giver)
-Gave away his care dog-
-Stopped his meds that keep him happy.
-Removed him from his only stability (special school for his needs)
-shipped him from house to house with little of his belongings.
- verbalised to others him a zombie the day before he was murdered.
-told anyone who asked JJ was safe and she knew exactly where he was.
- Asked MEL G to lie to police about having him.
-married the man who pulled all the strings weeks later.
-Told nate eaton in hawaii people were praying for her children and she replied...
thats greeeeeeeeeeeaaaaat.
-admitted to sister in jail call that she knew the kids were dead before she married chad.

thats just off the top of my head.

slam dunk the funk. :cool:
Her goose is cooked.
 
KonaHonu said:
One of the reasons I really want to see solid evidence that Lori participated in a plan is because it appears to me that Chad is a master manipulator. I think it is very plausible that there was no plan at all and Chad orchestrated everything through manipulating Alex. He did not only manipulate Lori and Alex but also his kids, possibly Tammy, MG, JR and many others.
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In that case, Lori could have gone to LE. She did not.
 
cottonweaver said:
Today's trial audio is out

The 911 - scroll to minus 26 ( need earphones or good speakers)

Let us know what you think about emotion ( Lauren Mathias had said today that she thought Chad sounded genuine in his tears)

Tammy shooting 911s are around minus 36
Click to expand...


In fairness, LM also commented later that it was very controlling of Chad to take the phone, especially since he was so upset. Why not let Garth finish the call?

But in contrast to real distress and excessive control, Nate Eaton said he was crying, then stopped to give his name in a normal voice, then was crying again.

Lol. I think the truth in sound is somewhere in the middle. It was a convincing cry- and he stopped the cry voice a bit to give his name.

I also think Chad is just good at pretending to be upset. And when he's afraid, he really dies cry IMO. He may have been real crying because he was afraid his act wouldn't work or the murder would be detected.

MOO
 
cujenn81 said:
What’s with people on 9-1-1 calls always saying I’m THE ______ (fill-in-the-blank)? Chad said I’m THE husband. Patsy Ramsey said I’m THE mother. Wouldn’t it be more natural to say I’m HER husband or I’m HER mother?

Things that make you go hmmmm…?
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Fake 911 calls. The Behavior Panel (an authorized source) discusses it regularly. IIRC one of the panelists trains LE on how to identify fake 911 calls. Patsy Ramsey is one of the examples they use. Guys who kill their wives seem especially prone to fake 911 calls....
 
KonaHonu said:
Thanks. Very helpful.

Does anyone know when the Missouri trip was that Lori and MP took?
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Sometime between Oct 9 and Oct 18

Gun fired at Tammy (early) evening of Oct 9 and on that day LVD, MP and ZP were in Arizona attempting to do a "casting on Tammy"

LVD and MP travel to Missouri and meet-up with AB and attempt another "casting on Tammy"

The day of 911 calls reporting Tammy Daybell's death on Oct 19 LVD and MP (and soon joined by AB) were in Hawaii - having a good time spending Tylee and JJ's money.


Most of this obtained by listening to opening statements.

 
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Snoopster said:
Bringing out from your post for focus:
"Conspiracy requires a meeting of the minds, an agreement to commit the murders, and an overt act by one of the conspirators. We have an overt act. But an agreement would have to occur BEFORE the crime. I'm not sure if that is an actual requirement in the law but it is irrational to say that the agreement could be made after the crime. It just does not make sense."

I might have been with you on your opinion, but there was more than one murder. Was she 'fine with it' after each murder? Was she fine with it after Tylee's murder amd then demured? and was she then fine with it after JJ's murder and demured again? And then Tammy's? That's beyond reasonable in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Was she fine with Charles’ murder? I suspect she could have been the one to pull the trigger and Alex covered for her. We do not know. If I’m on the jury, I absolutely can see beyond any doubt that she knew about and agreed to each murder and maybe participated in each. With the evidence presented, I would give LV , CD, and AC the harshest sentence available. Although I’m sure Alex is living in his own hell right now.
 
pizzaman12 said:
Not going to LE is not the crime(s) she's been charged with, an important distinction.
Click to expand...


Well, Lori going to LE would have likely started the process of halting SS funds for the children... which kinda/sorta figures in with that whole grand theft charge, right?? Where's the evidence that bad CD manipulated her into that?
 
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