ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow, Tylee Ryan, Tammy Daybell, Charles Vallow *Arrests* #72

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What’s with people on 9-1-1 calls always saying I’m THE ______ (fill-in-the-blank)? Chad said I’m THE husband. Patsy Ramsey said I’m THE mother. Wouldn’t it be more natural to say I’m HER husband or I’m HER mother?

Things that make you go hmmmm…?
I found you a great source! The phone text (a mom with dead baby) is like, verbatim, Chad.....

 
Charles sent Tammy an email on Saturday, June 29. We don't know if/when she read it. Two days later, she made her last post on her fb. It was a photo of her and Chad at Mesa Falls.

She had to have read it as it was later found to be the only email address she ever blocked on her work email.
 
Don't forget her actions of selling JJ's therapy dog, putting their bikes/toys in storage, and taking JJ off his meds, Why do any of these actions if you aren't preparing to kill the kids?

Exactly.

<modsnip>

But clearly, Lori was all in for her kiddos. She took actions like those you mentioned above.

And recent testimony is new info for me- I think I will be convinced of conspiracy for Tammy, too, by the time the prosecution finishes with their witnesses.

Any one of the 5 charges (3 conspiracy, 2 murder) can put her away for life. My money is she is convicted of 3 or 4 charges. (All 3 conspiracies OR conspiracy and murder for both children.)

The theft helps make the murders make sense to the jury.

MOO
 
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I think LVD just thought about money. She thought she was too wonderful to have to work. Without Tylee and JJ's money, she didn't have anything. It seems so simple to me, she didn't want them around, but she wanted to keep their benefits.

Hard to believe that a mother would think that way about her children. INMO, LVD never wanted JJ, Charles Vallow did. And having had a teen daughter, sometimes, they are very difficult to deal with. I think Tylee said something to LVD, possibly about leaving Idaho, maybe even taking JJ with her, using Charles Vallow's death as a possible opportunity to leverage LVD. She didn't realize how much the money meant to LVD.

I think that the jury will see this.
 
I hope you are right (when you said "Typically, prosecutors end their arguments with a bang, not a whimper (apologies to T. S. Eliot), so there may be something damning coming up").

We keep being fed evidence that the kids were very dead, murdered. Lots of detail to prove that, over and over. But we don't keep being fed EVIDENCE of Lori's actual involvement or personal participation in any of that, when it happened. Circumstantial evidence is not an excuse for the case not being proven b-a-r-d -- it has to take us (and the jury) to the point where we think Lori's personal participation is PROVEN, not to being left to assume or speculate she maybe was involved or could have known what was going on, before it happened.

I think they really need way more than where we are. Like you, I hope it's coming.

My personal concern is that
(a) there's already been a mountain of testimony,
(b) as we go along, they aren't showing the ties of this evidence to Lori (if that's possible). If I'm a juror, I would likely be thinking "this part wasn't about Lori at all" over and over. How many times can I do that without raising significant doubts in my mind as to whether she was actually a knowing participant in murder, and knew what was about to happen in real time? She had extreme beliefs, but did those include a desire and willingness to murder her own kids?,
(c) it only takes one juror who feels they haven't been given evidence that PROVES that Lori was participating and knew murder was going to happen, and instead feels they are being asked to speculate or assume.
Though I hope not, maybe the prosecution is just hitting the jury with horror after horror, hoping they will measure Lori’s affect in court against it and find her guilty on that basis alone. Many would, but that isn’t how it’s supposed to work.
 
She had to have read it as it was later found to be the only email address she ever blocked on her work email.
I'm not aware of how tech savvy Chad was, but if she regularly checked her school email at home during the summer (as it sounded like that was the school's expectation from testimony) and he had access to her computer, it's one click in Microsoft Outlook to block a sender. If he was aware Charles was going to email her and he had the know how, he could possibly have snuck on her computer and done that.
 
I hope you are right (when you said "Typically, prosecutors end their arguments with a bang, not a whimper (apologies to T. S. Eliot), so there may be something damning coming up").

We keep being fed evidence that the kids were very dead, murdered. Lots of detail to prove that, over and over. But we don't keep being fed EVIDENCE of Lori's actual involvement or personal participation in any of that, when it happened. Circumstantial evidence is not an excuse for the case not being proven b-a-r-d -- it has to take us (and the jury) to the point where we think Lori's personal participation is PROVEN, not to being left to assume or speculate she maybe was involved or could have known what was going on, before it happened.

I think they really need way more than where we are. Like you, I hope it's coming.

My personal concern is that
(a) there's already been a mountain of testimony,
(b) as we go along, they aren't showing the ties of this evidence to Lori (if that's possible). If I'm a juror, I would likely be thinking "this part wasn't about Lori at all" over and over. How many times can I do that without raising significant doubts in my mind as to whether she was actually a knowing participant in murder, and knew what was about to happen in real time? She had extreme beliefs, but did those include a desire and willingness to murder her own kids?,
(c) it only takes one juror who feels they haven't been given evidence that PROVES that Lori was participating and knew murder was going to happen, and instead feels they are being asked to speculate or assume.

Can you provide three logical reasons a juror might have which causes them to doubt Lori's involvement in the death of Tylee or JJ? I'm trying to exercise my brain with likely possibilities.
 
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Reading the tweets with Dye's testimony made me angry. She did the Tammy a dirty with her lack of professionalism. Those of us on WS who are not medical examiners even know better. The ToD, the pink foam, the temperature of the body, no autopsy. I really don't understand how that can happen. It was a series of terrible decision making.
I agree, and I'm guessing it has to do with the fact that it's been reported that 97% of Rexburg residents are Mormon. (Posting article from 2008, but i'll try to find something more recent). Not sure if Brenda Dye is Mormon, but she is an ELECTED official. Imagine if a respected Mormon family said "please, no autopsy, please don't do that to our mother" and the coroner did it anyway. That would probably be her last term as coroner.Prophets and politics

Eta link for newspaper, as well as my own opinion that churchmembers/LDS don't want a "Mormon murder" in the news, they'd much rather the story of a Mormon mother passing away peacefully in her sleep.
 
Notice Lori said children, even though MG was asking about JJ.

So Lori had said nothing about protecting Tylee from Kay up until that point, but because she's inadvertently spoken of more than one of her children at this point, it reveals the lie about the matter being one of protection from Kay, or some irrationally held belief about Kay.

When Lori included the statement to MG "I would never ask you to not protect your children" she is talking about real protection in a situation of exposure to some sort of threat or danger, and that is how MG understood it, which is not comparable to protecting children by releasing them through death from possession by something evil. Therefore we can see that Lori was capable of rational thought and not speaking in terms of the belief system she espoused. Rationality shows that she was not in the grips of delusion. JMO
Such a good point! This is the very topic that I have been simmering on. Lori logic that truly contradicts her faith. This is what indicates her role in the conspiracy. Here is what she says about protection in the recorded phone conversation referenced a few posts up...

LV: "have you ever seen Jesus Christ? do know what the future behavior would be if you had seen Jesus Christ? He does protect me and he is protecting me and he will protect me against this accusation as well. And we will both stand there with him and you tell me if I was lying or not, when we’re both standing there with Jesus Christ.

It sounds like she has nothing to worry about. She does not need mortal protection; God will provide.

LVD loves to play up her good mother image, but LVD does not mourn her children, whether they were dead or inhabited by zombies. If they were zombies, that should have been very distressing, in and of itself. She shows irritation, not grief about their "zombie behavior", and I think this is code for her disinterest in parenting them. If she is not mourning because they are ...

Safe from being zombies because they are dead (still murder, btw) then there is no need for protection from mortals like Kay, and there is no need for secrecy to keep them safe. She claims she know where they are, and they are "safe" in her conversations after the fact, which logically means she knows they are dead, and she knows where they are. If she was not part of the conspiracy, why would she know they are safe and why would she protect CD and AC from investigation by telling lies and running away?

As for evidence that she participated in advance, LVD knows that calling someone a zombie= their immanent death. That is her premeditated role in the conspiracy.

She knows zombie talk will get the ball rolling with AC. CD may have initiated some of the zombie talk, but LVD surely knows (particularly after the first few examples) that there is a inevitable chain of events that follow. She may have been able to feign ignorance initially, but she knows what they are talking about when they talk about zombies, and she does plenty of zombie talk after she knows the consequences. She thinks she has somehow insulated herself from accusations by making CD and AC her tentacles.

Her dilemma is that she has cloaked herself in religious protection with her family and friends to avoid accountability with them, but that is not a legal defense, and she KNOWS it. If she publicly embraces her zombie defense, it is tantamount to a confession. She can't publicly deny the beliefs that CD has promoted because it will undermine her ability to lie to her family and friends, and she will lose her power over CD. I think she won't testify because she can't craft an answer that walks this impossibly fine line. LVD, like others with psychopathic tendencies is used to manipulating one person at a time, and court is very much public.

She is either in or out on the doomsday business, and she has painted herself into an ugly and indefensible corner.
 
Reading the tweets with Dye's testimony made me angry. She did the Tammy a dirty with her lack of professionalism. Those of us on WS who are not medical examiners even know better. The ToD, the pink foam, the temperature of the body, no autopsy. I really don't understand how that can happen. It was a series of terrible decision making.
flashback to Jo Scott Morgan ( over a year ago, when he'd just heard of an unofficial determination of asphyxia ) He's blazing mad.

His research/specialist field at the university is coroner system. (BTW he goes on to explain what physical evidence survives embalming & why he's annoyed that Coroner's office didn't do a blood and urine draw at the morticians. ) Brenda yesterday said that she'd made that decision in tandem with LE & her Deputy. JSMorgan is clear that the Coroner is in charge.
It's a scandal.
 
As much as I don't want it to be...

This article says that 911 call analysis is junk science. It doesn't work.

MOO
Good point.... Let me get a more informative presentation, with a more analytical slant:


 
I think LVD just thought about money. She thought she was too wonderful to have to work. Without Tylee and JJ's money, she didn't have anything. It seems so simple to me, she didn't want them around, but she wanted to keep their benefits.

Hard to believe that a mother would think that way about her children. INMO, LVD never wanted JJ, Charles Vallow did. And having had a teen daughter, sometimes, they are very difficult to deal with. I think Tylee said something to LVD, possibly about leaving Idaho, maybe even taking JJ with her, using Charles Vallow's death as a possible opportunity to leverage LVD. She didn't realize how much the money meant to LVD.

I think that the jury will see this.
They have messages between Chad and Lori from the time she learned that she missed out on Charles' life insurance money. Her reaction after the initial shock: "I’ll still get the 4,000 a month from SS." Not "I'll give JJ to Kay and be left with nothing."
 
Nate Eaton's wife, who was in the courtroom yesterday and saw Lori in person for the first time, commented on Lori's attitude during the testimonies. She described it as disinterested, bored and aloof.
 
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