ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow, Tylee Ryan, Tammy Daybell, Charles Vallow *Arrests* #72

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Such a good point! This is the very topic that I have been simmering on. Lori logic that truly contradicts her faith. This is what indicates her role in the conspiracy. Here is what she says about protection in the recorded phone conversation referenced a few posts up...

LV: "have you ever seen Jesus Christ? do know what the future behavior would be if you had seen Jesus Christ? He does protect me and he is protecting me and he will protect me against this accusation as well. And we will both stand there with him and you tell me if I was lying or not, when we’re both standing there with Jesus Christ.

It sounds like she has nothing to worry about. She does not need mortal protection; God will provide.

LVD loves to play up her good mother image, but LVD does not mourn her children, whether they were dead or inhabited by zombies. If they were zombies, that should have been very distressing, in and of itself. She shows irritation, not grief about their "zombie behavior", and I think this is code for her disinterest in parenting them. If she is not mourning because they are ...

Safe from being zombies because they are dead (still murder, btw) then there is no need for protection from mortals like Kay, and there is no need for secrecy to keep them safe. She claims she know where they are, and they are "safe" in her conversations after the fact, which logically means she knows they are dead, and she knows where they are. If she was not part of the conspiracy, why would she know they are safe and why would she protect CD and AC from investigation by telling lies and running away?

As for evidence that she participated in advance, LVD knows that calling someone a zombie= their immanent death. That is her premeditated role in the conspiracy.

She knows zombie talk will get the ball rolling with AC. CD may have initiated some of the zombie talk, but LVD surely knows (particularly after the first few examples) that there is a inevitable chain of events that follow. She may have been able to feign ignorance initially, but she knows what they are talking about when they talk about zombies, and she does plenty of zombie talk after she knows the consequences. She thinks she has somehow insulated herself from accusations by making CD and AC her tentacles.

Her dilemma is that she has cloaked herself in religious protection with her family and friends to avoid accountability with them, but that is not a legal defense, and she KNOWS it. If she publicly embraces her zombie defense, it is tantamount to a confession. She can't publicly deny the beliefs that CD has promoted because it will undermine her ability to lie to her family and friends, and she will lose her power over CD. I think she won't testify because she can't craft an answer that walks this impossibly fine line. LVD, like others with psychopathic tendencies is used to manipulating one person at a time, and court is very much public.

She is either in or out on the doomsday business, and she has painted herself into an ugly and indefensible corner.
And she has no answer when MG asks her what sort of threats Kay was making.

She said

(has she threatened you?)

LV: yes lots of times

(what did she say?)

LV: well, it’s in emails and everything, so

(so she was gonna come and take him?)

LV: there’s a lot of things Melanie

Just like she had no answer for the police detective Sandra Ynclan in Chandler when she asked Lori what sort of threats Charles had been making. She was lost for words and then said 'ahh you'd have to look at my phone'.

The problem with saying Kay was dark because of the life insurance beneficiary stuff to MG is that all of that was already known when MG went to visit in Idaho and Lori agreed to send JJ to Kay's!

Suddenly JJ wasn't a zombie anymore, and it turned on its head into protecting JJ from Kay being dark. You couldn't make it up.

But she did!

So she was lying about Kay to MG, apparent because of the lie about protecting Tylee too, during the call, and the only real reason she has for fleeing to Hawaii is to hide from the police looking for JJ after they realise he's not with MG. And the only reason to conceal the whereabouts of JJ from police is because he's been murdered and she is guilty of murder. She has no reason to hide from police if she's not guilty of JJ and Tylee's murders.
 
Charles sent Tammy an email on Saturday, June 29. We don't know if/when she read it. Two days later, she made her last post on her fb. It was a photo of her and Chad at Mesa Falls.

is that the work account? the one where the only blocked e mail address is CV?
If so, I see what you mean.
( I'd assumed that Chad had snuck onto Tammy's device and blocked CV when Tammy was distracted but logged on. However, maybe her posting a photo was a public statement. I don't have FB but was mesa Falls a recent trip and did Tammy regularly post happy photos of herself & Chad during this more recent period?)
 
Nate Eaton's wife, who was in the courtroom yesterday and saw Lori in person for the first time, commented on Lori's attitude during the testimonies. She described it as disinterested, bored and aloof.
The jury will make a judgement on that.

btw Did you see that interview with artist Susan Bin? ( Artists tend to have sharp observational powers- so much time spent looking)
Her observation was that, over the time Susan has been at trial , overall Lori doesn't like to face the jury as they face her. ( they're seated opposite)

IMO She doesn't want to be seen in the fullest sense of the word ( despite years of craving attention)

Links with this:
@Tanager just posted ' I think she won't testify because she can't craft an answer that walks this impossibly fine line. LVD, like others with psychopathic tendencies is used to manipulating one person at a time, and court is very much public. '
 
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@Tortoise It's great to have a transcript of that call. Thank you for doing that & great catch on the ' protection' slip-up from LV

I've always found it interesting that MG didn't say to Lori after this segment from your transcript:
'V: Well, I had to move him somewhere else because of her actions

(Was she trying to come and get him, like kidnap him?)

LV: Well, yes she said that often times'


But Lori , you told me days ago that you'd handed JJ to Kay at the airport
 
I hope you are right (when you said "Typically, prosecutors end their arguments with a bang, not a whimper (apologies to T. S. Eliot), so there may be something damning coming up").

We keep being fed evidence that the kids were very dead, murdered. Lots of detail to prove that, over and over. But we don't keep being fed EVIDENCE of Lori's actual involvement or personal participation in any of that, when it happened. Circumstantial evidence is not an excuse for the case not being proven b-a-r-d -- it has to take us (and the jury) to the point where we think Lori's personal participation is PROVEN, not to being left to assume or speculate she maybe was involved or could have known what was going on, before it happened.

I think they really need way more than where we are. Like you, I hope it's coming.

My personal concern is that
(a) there's already been a mountain of testimony,
(b) as we go along, they aren't showing the ties of this evidence to Lori (if that's possible). If I'm a juror, I would likely be thinking "this part wasn't about Lori at all" over and over. How many times can I do that without raising significant doubts in my mind as to whether she was actually a knowing participant in murder, and knew what was about to happen in real time? She had extreme beliefs, but did those include a desire and willingness to murder her own kids?,
(c) it only takes one juror who feels they haven't been given evidence that PROVES that Lori was participating and knew murder was going to happen, and instead feels they are being asked to speculate or assume.
I like your post and ordinarily I would agree. But any juror who uses common sense knows a mother who did not physically “participate” in her child’s murders would be screaming and crying and crawling on the floor at the photos and autopsy reports. She would not sit there acting like she is made of wood and covering for her husband and brother. She would also realize beyond a reasonable doubt that her husbands teachings were baloney and she fell for it completely.

Instead we have a woman who is a monster, smiling and chatting with her attorneys and still proclaiming within herself she is a goddess who can do no wrong.

I have said all along that though there is a mountain of evidence, I don’t think the prosecutors really want to prosecute this case to the max.

That said, I hope like everyone else that there is still a smoking gun.
 
first time I can find LV mentioning killing kids is to Annie Cushing during custody battle when Joe was winning . It was wtte of - I'd rather death( Tylee's) than let Joe have/see Tylee ( custody rights)

second one was the comment LV made to somebody else when she'd become obsessed with End Times prophecies but before meeting Chad. That was wtte of - I sometimes wonder if it's better to drive my car off a cliff with the two kids ( rather than endure the horrors coming during apocalypse ) Somebody here will remember who she said that to. ( I either got that from April or Annie but can't remember now)

the kids were her possessions, not humans in their own right
 
is that the work account? the one where the only blocked e mail address is CV?
If so, I see what you mean.
( I'd assumed that Chad had snuck onto Tammy's device and blocked CV when Tammy was distracted but logged on. However, maybe her posting a photo was a public statement. I don't have FB but was mesa Falls a recent trip and did Tammy regularly post happy photos of herself & Chad during this more recent period?)
I also took the photo as a statement. Maybe she chose not to know about Chad's affair. She posted a similar happy photo with Chad on June 10 and someone commented how she and Chad made a beautiful couple.
 
re: the transcript of MG's call with LVD; it's really quite a fascinating phone call.

I assume everything began to unravel when Lori misled police by claiming that JJ was with Melanie.

It's obvious that MG was 100% done with Lori, with Lori and Chad's "teachings" and with Lori's BS about where JJ was.

MG remained grounded, firm, and resolute in making her points. She did not lose her composure and was never derailed by all the ways that Lori threatened her or argued that what she was doing was right. It signaled the end of a friendship or was it more like a mentor/student relationship, where the student calls out the master as a fraud.
 
first time I can find LV mentioning killing kids is to Annie Cushing during custody battle when Joe was winning . It was wtte of - I'd rather death( Tylee's) than let Joe have/see Tylee ( custody rights)

second one was the comment LV made to somebody else when she'd become obsessed with End Times prophecies but before meeting Chad. That was wtte of - I sometimes wonder if it's better to drive my car off a cliff with the two kids ( rather than endure the horrors coming during apocalypse ) Somebody here will remember who she said that to. ( I either got that from April or Annie but can't remember now)

the kids were her possessions, not humans in their own right
Sill question, so I’m the one to ask it: What does “wtte” mean?

Edited to add: Since posting my question, I’ve learned it can mean “words to that effect” or thereabouts. *sigh*
 
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The jury will make a judgement on that.

btw Did you see that interview with artist Susan Bin? ( Artists tend to have sharp observational powers- so much time spent looking)
Her observation was that, over the time Susan has been at trial , overall Lori doesn't like to face the jury as they face her. ( they're seated opposite)

IMO She doesn't want to be seen in the fullest sense of the word ( despite years of craving attention)

Links with this:
@Tanager just posted ' I think she won't testify because she can't craft an answer that walks this impossibly fine line. LVD, like others with psychopathic tendencies is used to manipulating one person at a time, and court is very much public. '
Interesting observation. I think Lori is behaving like a true narcissist: she HATES to be judged, and she hates not having the power. Sitting there with her prison beauty shop hair, completely powerless, in full view of the strangers who get to decide her fate, she's miserable and I'm glad.
 
re: the transcript of MG's call with LVD; it's really quite a fascinating phone call.
It's obvious that MG was 100% done with Lori, Lori and Chad's "teachings" and Lori's BS about where JJ was.
I assume everything began to unravel when Lori misled police by claiming that JJ was with Melanie.

MG remained grounded, firm, and resolute in making her points. She did not lose her composure and was never derailed by all the ways that Lori threatened her. It also signaled the end of a friendship or was it more like a mentor/student relationship, where the student calls out the master as a fraud.
MG once believed that Lori was her mother in a previous life. She was also ZP's mother.

I agree that MG did a good job recording Lori. Lori was right, MG was likely heavily influenced by DW, but IIRC, she also talked to her bishop before going to police. It did look like she tried to make Lori give out JJ's location, but she also challenged Lori's beliefs, which made Lori more angry.
 
LEO was tracking LVD and CD since December. They knew where LVD and CD were, based on the plane ticket purchases to Hawaii. Plane manifests have been available to LEO ever since 9/11.

So, why was there so much coverage, looking for CD and LVD? Was this just to put pressure on them? Hawaii is a nice place, but it is a rock in the middle of the ocean, not exactly a smart place to hide out. I think LVD and CD were just living out their fantasy life. Plenty of money, the beach. Perhaps they were waiting for the world to end?
 
I also took the photo as a statement. Maybe she chose not to know about Chad's affair. She posted a similar happy photo with Chad on June 10 and someone commented how she and Chad made a beautiful couple.
really sad, if true.
I hope Tammy did not look-up Lori's social media & see her.

btw, re Chad likely having had previous infidelity, as discussed by HTC guests etc
What did you make of the faked letter? ( The one LV wrote pretending to be CV. Letter invites Chad to come write his autobiography, all expenses paid etc) I wondered if Chad asked for that so he could - casually- show it to Tammy or leave it lying around at the house because..... he had had past affairs which Tammy got wind of
 
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I have seen speculation elsewhere that this may be the last week for the prosecution’s case.

I have one question: Do you think the prosecution will end with some explosive evidence they have saved for last?
 
Interesting observation. I think Lori is behaving like a true narcissist: she HATES to be judged, and she hates not having the power. Sitting there with her prison beauty shop hair, completely powerless, in full view of the strangers who get to decide her fate, she's miserable and I'm glad.
Agree, plus all those eyes on her, scrutinising her as all the gruesome, depraved evidence is presented.

She was a woman who , 1 on 1, was able to talk her way out of everything.
Zero control now. Not allowed to speak.
( PS it would be mega bucket popcorn if she went against her attorneys and decided to testify. I don't think that'll happen but....)
 
really sad, if true.
I hope Tammy did not look-up Lori's social media & see her.

btw, re Chad likely having had previous infidelity, as discussed by HTC guests etc
What did you make of the faked letter? ( The one LV wrote pretending to be CV. Letter invites Chad to come write his autobiography, all expenses paid etc) I wondered if Chad asked for that so he could show it to Tammy because..... he had had past affairs which Tammy got wind of
Didn't Chad look up Lori soon after meeting her and didn't find much of SM presence for her?

I think Lori made two fake invitations for Chad, one from Texas (likely in April) and one from Arizona (in June). IMO it's possible that Chad wrote them and send them to Lori.

At some point in 2019 (in June?) Chad stopped going to PAP events. Maybe it was at Tammy's request. Lori also missed a PAP meeting in Boise because she was afraid of being served divorce papers.
 
Didn't Chad look up Lori soon after meeting her and didn't find much of SM presence for her?

I think Lori made two fake invitations for Chad, one from Texas (likely in April) and one from Arizona (in June). IMO it's possible that Chad wrote them and send them to Lori.

At some point in 2019 (in June?) Chad stopped going to PAP events. Maybe it was at Tammy's request. Lori also missed a PAP meeting in Boise because she was afraid of being served divorce papers.
IDK, this is the problem with a really complex case coupled with waiting almost 4 years to get to trial. ( Lots of stuff I never knew & lots I have forgotten)
Anyway, am just reading the timeline on page 1. It's good.

wonder if WSers think it's possible that they met much earlier than we've been told?

Quote:
'Approx 2016 or 2017 – Lori and Chad may have met for the first time as early as 2016 or 2017. Lori’s friend says in a Dec 2019 interview that Lori first became “obsessed” with Chad’s books about 4 years ago. JJ’s grandmother, KW says in a 30 Jan 2020 presser that she believes Lori & Chad may have met in 2016 or 2017. (Friend interview, Fox7 Austin, & KW’s Presser video).'

Link to timeline ID - Joshua Vallow & Tylee Ryan, Rexburg, Sept 2019 TIMELINE ONLY - *NO DISCUSSION*
 
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