Southern and that is all I will sayCurious, White Mountains, Show Low or maybe farther east, near the archeological area?
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Southern and that is all I will sayCurious, White Mountains, Show Low or maybe farther east, near the archeological area?
The Woodcock case might be superfluous at this stage
It's all one big metropolitan area - Phoenix, Tempe, Mesa, Gilbert, Chandler, Scottsdale, Queen Creek, San Tan Valley but there are many different LE jurisdictions, multiple counties, etc. Google is helpful for specifics you might be looking for. In general, after a few deaths in the 70s when LE from one jurisdiction did not respond a few feet within another jurisdiction, Arizona has weak jurisdiction for emergency response. Near boundaries, everyone will respond and questions about payment etc. are asked later.
Those places are all big cities with excellent EMS. I had EMS training and certification in Arizona. Arizona is above average nationally in its EMS system. I don't think there are any systematic deficiencies in the fire, LE or EMS systems in major cities in Arizona that are at play here. The 911 calls we've heard have all been very prompt, professional, and appropriate.
My one criticism in everything I've heard would be the Chandler PD telling Alex to stop CPR and leave the house. While that may be how they are trained, you NEVER stop CPR until a physician declares death or you are physically unable to continue. Stopping CPR is literally causing death because you are stopping the heart from beating which defines death. In my training (in Arizona) I was taught that, once started, you do not stop treatment even if ordered by a police officer. You ask the officer what the threat is and advise him that you are solely responsible for your patient and he cannot lawfully direct your treatment unless he has a higher level of EMS certification. If he tells you to stop treatment he is assuming responsibility for any outcome. My instructor was a paramedic and police officer and his comment was that lifesaving measures trump police actions and that many cops are ignorant of that fact so you have to remind them.
There is a protocol at scenes. Police are responsible for scene safety and then their job is to stay out of the way while EMS and fire do their job. That is mostly what we saw, but IMO, the order to AC to stop CPR on CV was not consistent with Arizona law. If CV bled out peripherally the cop could be guilty of manslaughter. If the bullet went through his heart or aorta there was never any hope. So the autopsy should reveal that. Given lack of blood on AC though I'm betting on internal bleeding.
If you start paying attention at accident scenes you will notice that ambulances are always parked tail in, pointed the the hospital they are headed toward, fire engines park skew to the road, and police are farther out, directing traffic. There are variations depending on the specific incident and local issues.
My one criticism in everything I've heard would be the Chandler PD telling Alex to stop CPR and leave the house. While that may be how they are trained, you NEVER stop CPR until a physician declares death or you are physically unable to continue.
Ok, but at what point is the felony committed? Is it when the judge issues the custody order? Is it when she if served? Is it X days after service?The felony would be committed when she refused to surrender the kids when the state tries to collect them. At that point she would be arrested
Oh no, she would get notice of any adverse action, with a reasonable amount of time to produce the children. Only after that reasonable time has expired would it be possible to obtain an arrest warrant. Considering how long this is going on it is possible that an attorney for Lori is litigating the case with the State but it may also simply be the case that the State has not yet pursued a custody action in the hopes that pressure on Lori may cause her to reveal where the children are or reveal someone else that knows where they are (likely by communicating with them). I think all of this waiting and the pressure games via the media are a waste of time and the only thing that will motivate Lori is to arrest her.Are you saying that if the state takes custody Lori is instantly a felon? No service or notice required? Because that sounds blatantly unconstitutional to me. My only point was that due process dictates that the state would need to give some reasonable notice to Lori if it takes custody before a felony charge could be entered.
I'd not that affirmative defense 2(a) might be a slam dunk if Lori knows of a threat against the kids and is protecing them.
You work until you cannot. Then you get therapy for failing to be able to save. It's a pretty serious thing.From my experience and background, working with a paramedic, not EMT, you work a patient for a minimum of 20 minutes, trying to resuscitate. I thought this to be standard protocol for EMS.
Ok. It sounds like we are on the same page.Oh no, she would get notice of any adverse action, with a reasonable amount of time to produce the children. Only after that reasonable time has expired would it be possible to obtain an arrest warrant. Considering how long this is going on it is possible that an attorney for Lori is litigating the case with the State but it may also simply be the case that the State has not yet pursued a custody action in the hopes that pressure on Lori may cause her to reveal where the children are or reveal someone else that knows where they are (likely by communicating with them). I think all of this waiting and the pressure games via the media are a waste of time and the only thing that will motivate Lori is to arrest her.
When it comes to Affirmative Defenses you can't just claim it - you have to prove it. The State carries no burden to disprove any or all affirmative defenses as the burden of proof rests with the defendant when they raise any affirmative defense(s) and a judge or jury will decide whether or not an affirmative defense was proven and if not then whether the State proved all of the statutory elements of the crime.
Does anyone know where we can watch the Dateline episode? I check the NBC page but they don't have it up yet.
Thanks
You never give up. You continue CPR as long as you can. It is possible that a specific ambulance company had a 20 minute rule. I don't doubt that, and it would be reasonable. But my training was that you treat as best you can until you are too exhausted to treat or someone with more advanced training takes over care. You can ignore patients with obvious signs of death which are specific and trained, for example, decapitation or burned beyond recognition.From my experience and background, working with a paramedic, not EMT, you work a patient for a minimum of 20 minutes, trying to resuscitate. I thought this to be standard protocol for EMS.
I think they will have it up after about a week. I want to see it too!Does anyone know where we can watch the Dateline episode? I check the NBC page but they don't have it up yet.
Thanks
From my experience and background, working with a paramedic, not EMT, you work a patient for a minimum of 20 minutes, trying to resuscitate. I thought this to be standard protocol for EMS.
You work until you cannot. Then you get therapy for failing to be able to save. It's a pretty serious thing.
While not in an EMS situation, I've had to stand up to a cop with a gun pointed at me and refused his idiotic order when he directed me to do something in a work situation that would have resulted in tens of thousands of dollars in damage. It was a university cop so he knew I was right and we talked things out.
Oh no, she would get notice of any adverse action, with a reasonable amount of time to produce the children. Only after that reasonable time has expired would it be possible to obtain an arrest warrant.
Ok, but at what point is the felony committed? Is it when the judge issues the custody order? Is it when she if served? Is it X days after service?
Because I'm not seeing a lot of due process protections here
You never give up. You continue CPR as long as you can. It is possible that a specific ambulance company had a 20 minute rule. I don't doubt that, and it would be reasonable. But my training was that you treat as best you can until you are too exhausted to treat or someone with more advanced training takes over care. You can ignore patients with obvious signs of death which are specific and trained, for example, decapitation or burned beyond recognition.
From my experience and background, working with a paramedic, not EMT, you work a patient for a minimum of 20 minutes, trying to resuscitate. I thought this to be standard protocol for EMS.
You are under no obligation to start CPR but it is actually the law in some states that you cannot stop until relieved by another once you do.
The visit to parents was before the gun incident lending weight to the possibility he knew she was going to be killed. So he didn't send her away for protection. Of course he did say to a friend that he was still having visions of her death only three weeks before she died.Here's the dynamic I think is at play in L&C's relationship. The two fell in love/lust over a 1-2 year period. Lori was infatuated by Chad's books and ideas. Chad was infatuated by Lori in more carnal ways, but also she stroked his ego by believing in his ideas. They may or may not have done anything physically or even talked about a future. Then Charles dies, planned or not. (I tend to think planned by AC and L). Lori tells Chad she did her part so they can be together, makes him an accessory after the fact to murder. Then she shows up in his town. She probably tells him he better grow a pair or else. Then things start happening. Tammy is attacked with a (paintball?) gun. Chad freaks and sends her to her parents to protect her. (I should check the timeline on that). Then Tammy dies. Lori tells him she fixed his problem. (Because I don't think Chad had the guts to kill Tammy. Somehow Lori arranged it) He better follow through on their plans. Honestly, he may not have even known about the kids until they were already gone.
I'm not saying Chad is innocent. I'm only saying that he is now stuck between a rock and a hard place and his only real option is to go along with everything.
Why are they in hotels now? What happened to the condo?I didn’t say they were afraid of a camera crew , I said it may have stopped them from boarding the shuttle. I heard a rumor today they are now staying at the Marriott. The only hotel on the island with a beach. I just hope they don’t hire a private charter and book it out of there. IMO.
rsbmMy one criticism in everything I've heard would be the Chandler PD telling Alex to stop CPR and leave the house. While that may be how they are trained, you NEVER stop CPR until a physician declares death or you are physically unable to continue. <rsbm> My instructor was a paramedic and police officer and his comment was that lifesaving measures trump police actions and that many cops are ignorant of that fact so you have to remind them.
There is a protocol at scenes. Police are responsible for scene safety and then their job is to stay out of the way while EMS and fire do their job. That is mostly what we saw, but IMO, the order to AC to stop CPR on CV was not consistent with Arizona law. If CV bled out peripherally the cop could be guilty of manslaughter. If the bullet went through his heart or aorta there was never any hope. So the autopsy should reveal that. Given lack of blood on AC though I'm betting on internal bleeding.