If you look at it logically it's very clear who did it!

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Before she found the note.

She told police she got up between 5:30 and 5:45. Even if it was 5:30, she got dressed, brushed her teeth, did her makeup and hair, started down the stairs, stopped in the laundry room and turned on the light, then went downstairs and found the note, ran back upstairs and looked for JBR in her room, yelled for JR, went back downstairs and at some point back upstairs to look in BR’s room, all before making the 911 call at 5:52. 22 minutes at the most. Police arrived on the scene within 7 minutes and she was all put together.
Every time I hear Patsy “ran” up that spiral staircase, I question how feasible that was — I mean apart from how she maneuvered over the step on which the RN was *supposedly* spread, something for which we have only her word. How fit was she? We know she was weakened by cancer treatments that ended two years previously. Have we heard that she was engaged thereafter in strength-building, exercise, or fitness activities of any kind? I just don’t buy that whole staircase scenario. I’d love to hear opinions on this.
 
Every time I hear Patsy “ran” up that spiral staircase, I question how feasible that was — I mean apart from how she maneuvered over the step on which the RN was *supposedly* spread, something for which we have only her word. How fit was she? We know she was weakened by cancer treatments that ended two years previously. Have we heard that she was engaged thereafter in strength-building, exercise, or fitness activities of any kind? I just don’t buy that whole staircase scenario. I’d love to hear opinions on this.
Well, if she was truly panicked one could potentially factor in the expected surge of adrenaline. Personally, I find the whole scenario questionable. The fact that there were no prints, no DNA on the note from either PR or JR who supposedly picked it up and read it is very suspicious. And that they so very quickly ignored the instructions. I am a firm believer that this was all part of the staging they did.
 
Well, if she was truly panicked one could potentially factor in the expected surge of adrenaline. Personally, I find the whole scenario questionable. The fact that there were no prints, no DNA on the note from either PR or JR who supposedly picked it up and read it is very suspicious. And that they so very quickly ignored the instructions. I am a firm believer that this was all part of the staging they did.

No fingerprints are indeed suspect.
No other fingerprints anywhere else in the house either.
Unless the kidnapper was meticulous he/she would have to have gloves on at all times, with zero room for any mistakes. Takes time to write a length kidnapping ransom letter at the house with Patsy's pen, and then kills JBR and leaves her behind to be discovered.
What's the motive? Money? Then why kill the child and leave her behind? Why not abduct the child and collect the ransom money?
So many unanswered questions.
 
No fingerprints are indeed suspect.
No other fingerprints anywhere else in the house either.
Unless the kidnapper was meticulous he/she would have to have gloves on at all times, with zero room for any mistakes. Takes time to write a length kidnapping ransom letter at the house with Patsy's pen, and then kills JBR and leaves her behind to be discovered.
What's the motive? Money? Then why kill the child and leave her behind? Why not abduct the child and collect the ransom money?
So many unanswered questions.
100% inside job...
 
I think that once she realized that John Ramsey is probably the guilty one she was afraid of him and maybe of all of his friends in the house at that time and how many bullets she would need to get out alive if the situation got out of hand because she was alone as an officer in the house while facing a murderer....honestly only Linda Arndt could really answer your question
My take was what she saw in JRs face was guilty knowledge which she interpreted as guilt. That is easy enough to understand. Imagine being JR and thinking "oh sh$& , we're cooked". Th I'm sure she saw something in his eyes that frightened her. If she thought he was heinous enough to murder his child, she would be on high alert.
 
With all do respect the Ramsey's should have found her in the house in the first place. Patsy first words to 911 were lies...it was not a kidnapping...it was her way to say "don't look here look outside of here"....also John wanted to leave on a plane right away?!?! Makes no logical sense to me at least.....you want to stay home and find your child right? You don't want your missing 6 yrs old child to come home and you are not there right? You don't want to miss any phone calls from the kidnappers right?
...just like when Scott Peterson (Laci Peterson) who came home one day and decided to sell her car?!?!? Who does that??? of course he knew she was not coming back! Sometimes everything is in front of you you just need to look at it.
Not to say that you are wrong with anything but I would like to say something. With you saying that Mrs. Ramsey's saying that it was a kidnapping was her way of telling the authorities to look elsewhere other than her house would just be a little extreme in my opinion. If they did cover up the crime for their son like a possibility you have claimed then it would be unlikely that she would point them on a different direction as if to hide the body or the discovery of the body. They obviously left the body there to be found in that certain location, there would be no way that they would have written the note to protect their son and then leave JBR there to be hidden somewhere else later on.
 
Not to say that you are wrong with anything but I would like to say something. With you saying that Mrs. Ramsey's saying that it was a kidnapping was her way of telling the authorities to look elsewhere other than her house would just be a little extreme in my opinion. If they did cover up the crime for their son like a possibility you have claimed then it would be unlikely that she would point them on a different direction as if to hide the body or the discovery of the body. They obviously left the body there to be found in that certain location, there would be no way that they would have written the note to protect their son and then leave JBR there to be hidden somewhere else later on.
I disagree. I believe the plan was to move the body before they left town. They were sending everyone on a wild goose chase. And It worked.
 
I disagree. I believe the plan was to move the body before they left town. They were sending everyone on a wild goose chase. And It worked.
Exactly. That was the sole purpose of the RN. With no signs of a break-in, the note was the only thing that pointed to an intruder. They invited friends over who compromised and contaminated the house as a crime scene, cleaned up the kitchen which undoubtedly destroyed some evidence, left JBR in the wine cellar where they knew she would not be found immediately, the timeframe of which again helped to muddy the waters as bodies start to decompose and potential evidence is lost. They made some mistakes, yes. But overall their cover up plan did what it needed to do.
 
Exactly. That was the sole purpose of the RN. With no signs of a break-in, the note was the only thing that pointed to an intruder. They invited friends over who compromised and contaminated the house as a crime scene, cleaned up the kitchen which undoubtedly destroyed some evidence, left JBR in the wine cellar where they knew she would not be found immediately, the timeframe of which again helped to muddy the waters as bodies start to decompose and potential evidence is lost. They made some mistakes, yes. But overall their cover up plan did what it needed to do.
Yes, it did.
What is funny to me though, most people's intuition knew the family was involved. The police took a lot of crap over this case but they really did get it correct. My dad was career LE, most detectives really have a sixth sense over time. I say that not that I believe people should be convicted without evidence but that they know when things don't pass the smell test better than most.
IMO, people over complicate this case and I wonder how many crazy narratives were actually spun by camp Ramsey.
 
Yes, it did.
What is funny to me though, most people's intuition knew the family was involved. The police took a lot of crap over this case but they really did get it correct. My dad was career LE, most detectives really have a sixth sense over time. I say that not that I believe people should be convicted without evidence but that they know when things don't pass the smell test better than most.
IMO, people over complicate this case and I wonder how many crazy narratives were actually spun by camp Ramsey.
Yes. We had just moved to Colorado the year before this happened. It was of course all over the news here, so people were talking about it everywhere. I can attest that most people had the opinion that the family was involved. This was furthered by footage of them at the memorial in Boulder and the TV interview they did a mere 7 days (or so) after the murder, along with their stonewalling of the Boulder PD.

People often say that you can't judge how people react to such situations as everyone acts differently. And while to a certain extent I agree with this, I also think that the R's actions that began pretty much immediately were off. Not passing the smell test is a great way to put it. Polly Klaas's father Mark is a good example of how it should go......know that the parents will be the first to be looked at, let LE do exactly that and rule you out first so that efforts can then be concentrated on finding the "real" perp. The R's said they understood that, and yet also said they were just too horrified that anyone could think they were involved. It would be understandable for truly innocent parents to feel that way, but you still allow LE to do their jobs. They didn't.
 
Not to say that you are wrong with anything but I would like to say something. With you saying that Mrs. Ramsey's saying that it was a kidnapping was her way of telling the authorities to look elsewhere other than her house would just be a little extreme in my opinion. If they did cover up the crime for their son like a possibility you have claimed then it would be unlikely that she would point them on a different direction as if to hide the body or the discovery of the body. They obviously left the body there to be found in that certain location, there would be no way that they would have written the note to protect their son and then leave JBR there to be hidden somewhere else later on.
Why would it be extreme? Assuming that one of the family members was responsible which is arguably the most likely scenario given the evidence, there are two options especially if it was accidental. Call 911 immediately so that medical assistance can be given and admit what happened, or cover it up to protect the perpetrator. The R's chose the latter. In doing so, one would want to point LE away from the scene.

I think what many people seem to miss in trying to make sense of this crime is that the R's were not criminals, therefore lacked the criminal mindset. Faced with an unthinkable scenario, they then set about to cover up what had happened as best they could. They did a pretty good job of it too, considering that no one has ever been charged in this case, but it wasn't a perfect cover up. I imagine that there were time constraints, from the time that it was discovered there would have been the initial shock of what had occurred. Most likely followed by panic. Then to figure out what to do about it. We do not know the timeline of what happened or when it was discovered that JBR was mortally wounded or dead. But we do know that time was taken to write a practice RN and the actual note itself, which at 2 1/2 pages and while trying to disguise handwriting took some time. The body was wiped down, clothing changed, the blanket taken out of the dryer to cover her. The suitcase, certain items removed from the house, the wiping down of the flashlight and batteries, etc. There very well could have been a plan to remove the body from the house that we don't know about. They could have run out of time, or whatever plan they had may have been foiled by other occurrences. From what the evidence tells us, JBR's death probably occurred in the basement but outside of the wine cellar where urine stains were found. At some point the body was moved into the wine cellar, the light turned off and the door latched. In searching the basement, police didn't even know the wine cellar was there. If the intent was for the body to be found, they would have left her where she died and could be seen by anyone searching the basement. My opinion is that they tried to hide the body with a plan to dispose of her at some point, but realizing that was becoming impossible, they had to then do something else. Which was JR heading straight for that room & discovering the body when Det. Arndt asked him and FW to look around for anything missing or out of place.

What I do feel certain about is this.....had it been someone other than a family member, and kidnapping was the goal, the perpetrator would have actually kidnapped her, would have come prepared with whatever was necessary in order to do so, which would include a pre prepared ransom note, would not have abused her in the house, would not have left her body in the house, and would not have lovingly wrapped her in her favorite blanket. I think this also explains why JR "found" her. They could have left the house and left her body where it was, to continue to decompose until someone else found it. In my opinion, that thought was too uncomfortable for them. They had already created enough chaos and confusion for LE with the RN pointing away from the family.
 
My take was what she saw in JRs face was guilty knowledge which she interpreted as guilt. That is easy enough to understand. Imagine being JR and thinking "oh sh$& , we're cooked". Th I'm sure she saw something in his eyes that frightened her. If she thought he was heinous enough to murder his child, she would be on high alert.
Ispywiyhmylittleeye,
I agree with what you said here.
If she thought he was heinous enough to murder his child, she would be on high alert.
Post #48 on this thread shows that she was on high alert! I’m not saying that JDI, but he did take part. We only need to look at the true bills for both him and PR too understand that.
 
Why would it be extreme? Assuming that one of the family members was responsible which is arguably the most likely scenario given the evidence, there are two options especially if it was accidental. Call 911 immediately so that medical assistance can be given and admit what happened, or cover it up to protect the perpetrator. The R's chose the latter. In doing so, one would want to point LE away from the scene.

I think what many people seem to miss in trying to make sense of this crime is that the R's were not criminals, therefore lacked the criminal mindset. Faced with an unthinkable scenario, they then set about to cover up what had happened as best they could. They did a pretty good job of it too, considering that no one has ever been charged in this case, but it wasn't a perfect cover up. I imagine that there were time constraints, from the time that it was discovered there would have been the initial shock of what had occurred. Most likely followed by panic. Then to figure out what to do about it. We do not know the timeline of what happened or when it was discovered that JBR was mortally wounded or dead. But we do know that time was taken to write a practice RN and the actual note itself, which at 2 1/2 pages and while trying to disguise handwriting took some time. The body was wiped down, clothing changed, the blanket taken out of the dryer to cover her. The suitcase, certain items removed from the house, the wiping down of the flashlight and batteries, etc. There very well could have been a plan to remove the body from the house that we don't know about. They could have run out of time, or whatever plan they had may have been foiled by other occurrences. From what the evidence tells us, JBR's death probably occurred in the basement but outside of the wine cellar where urine stains were found. At some point the body was moved into the wine cellar, the light turned off and the door latched. In searching the basement, police didn't even know the wine cellar was there. If the intent was for the body to be found, they would have left her where she died and could be seen by anyone searching the basement. My opinion is that they tried to hide the body with a plan to dispose of her at some point, but realizing that was becoming impossible, they had to then do something else. Which was JR heading straight for that room & discovering the body when Det. Arndt asked him and FW to look around for anything missing or out of place.

What I do feel certain about is this.....had it been someone other than a family member, and kidnapping was the goal, the perpetrator would have actually kidnapped her, would have come prepared with whatever was necessary in order to do so, which would include a pre prepared ransom note, would not have abused her in the house, would not have left her body in the house, and would not have lovingly wrapped her in her favorite blanket. I think this also explains why JR "found" her. They could have left the house and left her body where it was, to continue to decompose until someone else found it. In my opinion, that thought was too uncomfortable for them. They had already created enough chaos and confusion for LE with the RN pointing away from the family.
Look, I don't know very much about this case because it does not peek my interest and yes, it is very clear that the Ramsey's do not have any criminal experience nor do they have the minds to think "like criminals". However, as to why I claimed the other person's thought to reason that Patsy was really telling the police to look elsewhere was extreme because it simply is. I was putting it in a nice way but I will say that it is plainly silly to believe that she was guiding the police elsewhere with that statement. While I do think that it is impossible for the family not to be involved based on the evidence that I have seen I do think that they thought they had, in some way, thought they could get away with having someone find JBR wherever she was found and leaving the note. No one makes up a fault to lead police elsewhere to cover up a crime without pursuing the idea that they thought was best to cover it up if that made sense, I didn't really know how to word that well. My question to you is why would the Ramsey's find disposing of the body impossible? They had a car did they not? There are woods and lakes in the state they lived in correct? They had means to dispose of the body so I would not go so far as to say it was impossible for them to hide the body.

Like I said before I know very little about this case so please enlighten me on this fact, but why is it said that she died outside of the wine cellar? I understand that there was urine there but that doesn't necessarily mean she died out there, that only means that she was out there at some time and happened to urinate meaning she could have been scared which is most likely but who's to say she wasn't taken into the wine cellar to not only muffle the sounds of struggle but also have a more secluded place to do whatever was done to her.

Adding on to the fact of disbelief that JBR wasn't meant to be found but instead hidden while police looked elsewhere for her why was it JR found the body himself? Wouldn't he have neglected even going into the wine cellar if no one knew it was there? That only revealed the body itself.
 
But if that is the case then why didn't they move it before cal
CloudedTruth said it best. They weren't criminals.
They were dealing with 2 tragedies simultaneously .
The thought of leaving or discarding her was too much to bare. Which makes me further think they didn't do the violence on the body to cover up anything. The Ramsey's loved JB. I think the original plan was to discard the body but couldn't do it.
This might be really lame but could they have gotten her in a suitcase on the plane..(The infamous suitcase)What was security like for a private plane with well to do owners who flew frequently out of Denver in the 90s
 
CloudedTruth said it best. They weren't criminals.
They were dealing with 2 tragedies simultaneously .
The thought of leaving or discarding her was too much to bare. Which makes me further think they didn't do the violence on the body to cover up anything. The Ramsey's loved JB. I think the original plan was to discard the body but couldn't do it.
This might be really lame but could they have gotten her in a suitcase on the plane..(The infamous suitcase)What was security like for a private plane with well to do owners who flew frequently out of Denver in the 90s
I know that the R’s used plastic bags instead of suitcases on that particular plane to keep the weight down. There was no cargo hold, there was only space behind the seats. so a suitcase probably would’ve been a little suspicious to the pilot. But I can tell you, having flown on a private plane out of DIA in 2012, I did not have to go through security nor was my bag X-rayed or checked by anyone. I would assume that in 1996 and out of a smaller regional airport there would not have been any security protocols that would have prevented them from hiding JBR’s body in a suitcase. Just the weight limitations of the plane itself and that being not their usual, which might have been noticed by the pilot.
 
Could have been explained away due to holiday gifts for family. The weight would only be the difference of the suitcase itself as JBR would have been included in the flight had she been alive.
 
Look, I don't know very much about this case because it does not peek my interest and yes, it is very clear that the Ramsey's do not have any criminal experience nor do they have the minds to think "like criminals". However, as to why I claimed the other person's thought to reason that Patsy was really telling the police to look elsewhere was extreme because it simply is. I was putting it in a nice way but I will say that it is plainly silly to believe that she was guiding the police elsewhere with that statement. While I do think that it is impossible for the family not to be involved based on the evidence that I have seen I do think that they thought they had, in some way, thought they could get away with having someone find JBR wherever she was found and leaving the note. No one makes up a fault to lead police elsewhere to cover up a crime without pursuing the idea that they thought was best to cover it up if that made sense, I didn't really know how to word that well. My question to you is why would the Ramsey's find disposing of the body impossible? They had a car did they not? There are woods and lakes in the state they lived in correct? They had means to dispose of the body so I would not go so far as to say it was impossible for them to hide the body.

Like I said before I know very little about this case so please enlighten me on this fact, but why is it said that she died outside of the wine cellar? I understand that there was urine there but that doesn't necessarily mean she died out there, that only means that she was out there at some time and happened to urinate meaning she could have been scared which is most likely but who's to say she wasn't taken into the wine cellar to not only muffle the sounds of struggle but also have a more secluded place to do whatever was done to her.

Adding on to the fact of disbelief that JBR wasn't meant to be found but instead hidden while police looked elsewhere for her why was it JR found the body himself? Wouldn't he have neglected even going into the wine cellar if no one knew it was there? That only revealed the body itself.
I’m not sure I understand exactly what you’re trying to say here. I think it’s perfectly logical that anyone would try to lead police in a different direction when covering up a crime.

As far as disposing of the body, I think they were up against time constraints. They were due to fly out at 7AM. Their daughter was dead, they were going to have to do something to explain why she was no longer there, hence the kidnapping story. Taking the time to dispose of the body most likely would have meant postponing or cancelling the flight. This would have been questioned by LE when learning of “the kidnapping.” Timeframe of everything that transpired would be examined. How would they account for that time? And again, they were not criminals. It would take some time and thought to determine best place to dispose of a body so as to not have it discovered. How familiar were they with rural areas? They weren’t the put up a tent type camping folks, and they were from Georgia. Finding somewhere they were not familiar with in the dark would have been a challenge, and doing so in daylight would have risked being seen. And again raising the question, what they were doing during that time after finding that their daughter was missing.

It’s presumed that JBR’s death may have occurred where the urine was found because the body expels at the time of death. I have already expressed my opinion as to why I believe JR “found” the body. Hours had passed and I think he just decided there was not going to be an opportunity to remove the body from the house, so his hand was forced. And I don’t think PR would’ve stood for just leaving her there.
 
Could have been explained away due to holiday gifts for family. The weight would only be the difference of the suitcase itself as JBR would have been included in the flight had she been alive.
Good point. But since they usually used plastic bags and not suitcases, it might have been suspicious. And I think JR had already loaded presents on the plane in plastic bags the day before.
 

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