IL - Lt. Charles 'Joe' Gliniewicz, 52, found dead, Fox Lake, 1 Sep 2015 - #5

[DexterMorgan]

If the area needed to be watched; Then where is the addicts and hooker and homeless who should have been lurking this area at 7am. How many 3 guy teams are walking around at this time of morning.

 

[bluesneakers]

I wonder if the pd told the 3 not to talk about what they witnessed that morning. You would think that they would be telling the world that they are glad they had alibis. Or they wish they hung around to be able to help the LT. Or something.

It's weird we haven't heard anything from them or about them, I agree.

 

[night train]

If the area needed to be watched; Then where is the addicts and hooker and homeless who should have been lurking this area at 7am. How many 3 guy teams are walking around at this time of morning.

The weekday shift hookers work four 10 hour days,Tuesday is their day off,the addicts and homeless are as unpredictable as the weather.

 

[cady]

It's weird we haven't heard anything from them or about them, I agree.

I google with different keywords every day to see if there is ANY news about these "persons of interest". It seems like across the USA people know of this case, and maybe people have called in tips, but we have heard absolutely NOTHING relating to who they might be. Not even in the gossip forums......JMO

 

[cady]

I was wondering if LE or investigators ever look at sites like this. To get an idea of what the public is thinking.
Or, I should say, what the thinking public is thinking. There are a lot of goofy videos and such out there. Maybe this is all part of the New World Order kind of thing.

:ufo:

It has been said that they do read these. I hope that they do, because a lot of people put a lot of thought an effort into these cases, and everyone's thoughts and research are genuine efforts.....generally..... I have learned a lot here from people from all walks of life and different perspectives. JMO

 

[bluesneakers]

I google with different keywords every day to see if there is ANY news about these "persons of interest". It seems like across the USA people know of this case, and maybe people have called in tips, but we have heard absolutely NOTHING relating to who they might be. Not even in the gossip forums......JMO

I've searched around too and found nothing. People are usually eager to gossip about something like this. Look how much comes out in a missing persons case or an arson... anything. People love to talk.

I wonder what the percentage of cop murders go unsolved. Google tells me there are only two in Los Angeles and most get solved. It looks like this one never will be, unless they happen to catch someone who confesses.

 

[Chuz Life]

I'll play. Not ready to put my cards on the table as a fully formed scenario but I'm hoping that above all, no matter how any of us are leaning, this more than anything else is a search for the truth.I'll take all the help I can get.....

Good intro - let's see what you've got.

Walker007 and Japple have made some observations that mesh with some of my thinking, this is where I'm running with it.

No set up, no suicide...Joe knew at least one of the 3. Once Joe saw him, Joe had to die.

So far, we have no evidence to indicate that anyone else was actually there with the lieutenant when he was shot but I guess I can pretend that we do.

1.One of the male whites was a cop

2.Either the male white or the male black was a drug connection

3.There are cops in the area playing along with people moving drugs

Okay. Got it.

Where did they park?

The guy on the news from Precision Chrome said he onlly saw one car there parked at the gate. Are you suggesting they all rode in with the LT?

4. All 3 if discovered would have enough to lose to warrant murdering Lt.JG

I guess that's a no on whether or not you think they arrived in the same car.

5.Even if escape was possible,the dirty cop would have been ID'ed by Lt.JG

Again, I would like to know where the "dirty cop's" car was parked, what his GPS would show about his whereabouts (how long he was there - etc) and what his (or her) radio and cell phone traffic might have been prior to the encounter.

6.Joe got out flanked somehow and was forced to drop his gun= No Sign of struggle

This is incredibly difficult to imagine for a military veteran and a very well seasoned training officer to do. . . but okay. Where/ what is the evidence of this struggle? What happened to the evidence that would have indicated that others were there?

7.A cop would know how to kill a cop with his own gun leaving little to no evidence

Right now I would settle for ANY evidence at all. We don't even have one single footprint in the dirt or mud that could possibly be attributed to any one of the trio of suspects.

We only have the word of the LT himself to give us any reason to believe that they were there. . . and if it was a "dirty cop" involved, apparently the LT did not know or recognize him or her. Else, he could have been much more descriptive in his radio description. And the LT would have been much more reluctant to chase them into the wooded swamp without backup too - if he knew he was chasing a "dirty cop."

8.The scanner thread radio times can fit

Perhaps. But only if we attribute super human skills to all three of the suspects and if we give the LT a pass on violating so much of his own training and protocol.

9.Neither Lt.JG or the 3 subjects expected to see each other that morning (again No SetUp)

I can appreciate your scenario and your efforts to make it fit the timeline of the radio traffic. It just leaves too many questions un-answered and it makes too many assumptions for me. At least at this point, that is.

If there is any possibility that a "dirty cop" was involved in this, the Feds will be all over it. I would think that the Lt's wife would be trying to make that case as well. But she isn't.

 

[Chuz Life]

I wonder if the pd told the 3 not to talk about what they witnessed that morning. You would think that they would be telling the world that they are glad they had alibis. Or they wish they hung around to be able to help the LT. Or something.

It's weird we haven't heard anything from them or about them, I agree.

I google with different keywords every day to see if there is ANY news about these "persons of interest". It seems like across the USA people know of this case, and maybe people have called in tips, but we have heard absolutely NOTHING relating to who they might be. Not even in the gossip forums......JMO

At this point, any idiot who might want to grab some headlines could claim that he or she was in the trio and claim they were the one who pulled the trigger and the prosecutor would still not have enough evidence to convict them of murder.

 

[katydid23]

Good intro - let's see what you've got.

So far, we have no evidence to indicate that anyone else was actually there with the lieutenant when he was shot but I guess I can pretend that we do.


[ so nice to see that you can discuss this without any snark...:facepalm:
There is some evidence that others may have been there. The dogs tracked a scent trail. And there is unknown DNA. And we do not know the extent of any footprints or trails left behind.]

Okay. Got it.

Where did they park?

The guy on the news from Precision Chrome said he onlly saw one car there parked at the gate. Are you suggesting they all rode in with the LT?



I guess that's a no on whether or not you think they arrived in the same car.

[ there are other places to park. Other trails, other paths that lead to places a car could be parked in.]


Again, I would like to know where the "dirty cop's" car was parked, what his GPS would show about his whereabouts (how long he was there - etc) and what his (or her) radio and cell phone traffic might have been prior to the encounter.

[ if he was not on duty then those things would not apply.]


This is incredibly difficult to imagine for a military veteran and a very well seasoned training officer to do. . . but okay. Where/ what is the evidence of this struggle? What happened to the evidence that would have indicated that others were there?



Right now I would settle for ANY evidence at all. We don't even have one single footprint in the dirt or mud that could possibly be attributed to any one of the trio of suspects.

[ how do you know there is no footprint evidence?]

We only have the word of the LT himself to give us any reason to believe that they were there. . . and if it was a "dirty cop" involved, apparently the LT did not know or recognize him or her. Else, he could have been much more descriptive in his radio description. And the LT would have been much more reluctant to chase them into the wooded swamp without backup too - if he knew he was chasing a "dirty cop."

[ maybe he was meeting someone there for a private talk. and he called the phony description in just in case he needed back up. Maybe he warned a dirty cop that there was an inventory happening and he had 24 hrs to return the stolen guns? or something like that?]

Perhaps. But only if we attribute super human skills to all three of the suspects and if we give the LT a pass on violating so much of his own training and protocol.



I can appreciate your scenario and your efforts to make it fit the timeline of the radio traffic. It just leaves too many questions un-answered and it makes too many assumptions for me. At least at this point, that is.

If there is any possibility that a "dirty cop" was involved in this, the Feds will be all over it. I would think that the Lt's wife would be trying to make that case as well. But she isn't.

[replies are bolded above]
Maybe the feds are all over it. We do not know at this time.

 

[cady]

It's true that we don't know the extent of FED involvement here, except for the initial participation in the manhunt for a day or two and that SOME DNA samples are CODIS-acceptable that are related to the crime scene. Other than that, the task force of Lake County is doing the investigating about the death of CG. The FEDS may well have their own investigation going on into local PD's......and it is a possibility that if there is an inventory issue related to 1033 program equipment issued to FLPD, I can see how they would be investigating that. JMO

 

[bluesneakers]

It's true that we don't know the extent of FED involvement here, except for the initial participation in the manhunt for a day or two and that SOME DNA samples are CODIS-acceptable that are related to the crime scene. Other than that, the task force of Lake County is doing the investigating about the death of CG. The FEDS may well have their own investigation going on into local PD's......and it is a possibility that if there is an inventory issue related to 1033 program equipment issued to FLPD, I can see how they would be investigating that. JMO

I think the feds are investigating the 1033 (which might be part of the inventory issue) and Lt. Joe's death is on the FLPD. Are they still putting Rudd off, and not giving him the rest of what he needs to rule? Maybe they think they can catch some suspects before Rudd can rule on MOD.

 

[cady]

I think the feds are investigating the 1033 (which might be part of the inventory issue) and Lt. Joe's death is on the FLPD. Are they still putting Rudd off, and not giving him the rest of what he needs to rule? Maybe they think they can catch some suspects before Rudd can rule on MOD.

My personal opinion is that Rudd is giving them as much time as they need to provide evidence of a homicide. I think that he is in no rush to specify the MOD because he doesn't expect an arrest anytime soon, if ever.....nor a grand jury indictment. JMO

 

[cady]

The inventory issue may or may not be related in some way to Gliniewicz' death. But it was the subject of a conversation he had with the Captain of the Explorers the night before he died, after his 90 minute discussion with the Mayor about the Explorers program, and after he had been asked to "help" with the inventory investigation by a town administrator who initiated the investigation of inventory by Gold Shield, an independent investigation agency......JMO

 

[night train]

Please don't take this as an attack. I enjoy the creative discussions and the time that so many have contributed. I am merely playing devils advocate as I respond with some thoughts.

It's an intriguing case,respectfully critiquing each other's theories in a shared search for the truth is what it's all about.Thanks for taking a look.

Odd location for this type of meeting. Were they carrying a large amount of drugs/cash? Who does this type of meeting by traveling on foot to a "remote" location that doesn't allow them immediate access to their cars? Typically, exchanges are quickly moved from one vehicle to another, not carried back to a car parked a good distance away. And if they did choose to do this, why did they remain in such a visable location (while acting "suspicious"), that would allow Lt G to see them? How does this fit with Lt G being on foot at scene for 20 minutes? Where were their cars? Would the drugs and cash have left even more of a scent for the dogs to track?

This is the most difficult part for me to believe to be able to buy in to my own theory,but try this:


Lt.JG only had to arrive before the 3 guys to explain the 20 minute delay.Lets say I got the roles of each of each of the 3 wrong,that they had no drugs, nothing on them except cash and guns.
The 3 arrived together,left their vehicle over towards the Animal Hospital and were there to meet another party for a transaction just a few minutes later around 8am...The other guy would have seen the chaos that quickly followed the request for the backup/officer down calls and quickly and smoothly slipped out of town.

For this to happen, they would have had to run initially, as Joe reported via radio. They would have then had to stop, formulate a plan, split up, and then outflank Joe which seems highly unlikely in their moment of panic. This would have also been a huge gamble because it could only be attempted if Joe disregards typical procedures and immediately pursues them into the woods without waiting for backup. If Joe waited for backup, or proceeded slowly, they would have been hiding in the woods waiting to outflank him while being surrounded by backup units and therefore losing thier short opportunity to escape. On the radio, Joe also didn't portray a sense of urgency that indicated he was going to sprint into the woods without waiting for backup. He actually never requested it, only said ok after the dispatcher asked for a second time if he would like backup units.

They began to flee,Lt.JG advises dispatch,then poised to pursue,he accepts offer of back up and goes.A cop who takes conditioning seriously and runs competitively in mud races could cover let's say 200 yards surprisingly fast.Trees/cover is a big equalizer.If Lt.JG ran past just one slower straggler he could have been outflanked then blind sided while pursuing/encountering one of the others.

If this happened, it should have been obvious from the residue tests and other evidence (side note: it is very disappointing that despite the fact that they took a great deal of time to process the evidence while enlisting the assistance of so many agencies, experts, and special crime labs, the gun shot residue tests were reportedly "inconclusive"). It isn't likely that they had gloves so if they took steps to "leave no evidence" it would be clear to LE that the gun was wiped off and would have likely left additional evidence.

If he was forced to give up his gun without a struggle, why was the first shot a glancing hit off his vest?

Why were the 2 bullet casings so far apart? If they were so concerned that they decided they were going to murder a cop, why only shoot him once in chest?

He was found face down and there was no way for them to be sure that the shot was fatal.

This happened quickly,even a knowledgeable dirty cop would have a tough time leaving the gun clean,no trace of evidence.Could be that conditions degraded evidence...No gloves unless we're talking setup,but I'm not thinking that way.


The 1st shot's a glancing hit - quite possible in the middle of a chaotic situation-If Lt.JG turned,tried to flee,rushed his attacker etc,etc.
Somewhat stunned,he stumbled 100 feet before sustaining the 2nd shot.


The 2nd shot especially considering the location ? IMO left him face down,bleeding profusely,deader than disco.

 

[cady]

There IS evidence of what Gliniewicz said, and when he said it. But there is still absolutely NO evidence that what he said was factual. JMO

 

[DexterMorgan]

Well Softails said this was a homicide and we don't even know the half of it. Does Softails live out there? How do they know.

 

[cady]

Softail bopped in and bopped out, with the non-revelation, and expected that we would all pack up our tents and go home! Of course by doing that no one could pick his/her brain. JMO........I think we were supposed to think that he/she was privy to a dispute between FBI and Homeland Security but, of course after dropping that gem he/she hopped off. JMO

 

[Chuz Life]

I personally had to do a lot of scrolling and rolling when inventory was a hot topic here. Lol. I cringed at the conversation with it being theorized as a possible relation; But just like you; I decided to no longer respond to any inventory comments that theorized it for a possible motive because it wasn't my cup of tea.

I didn't comment on any of the inventory stuff either. However, I do see how it could have played a part in the Lt's decision to off himself (considering the possibility that this was a suicide)

Even if the Lt was not suspected of any wrongdoing, he may have been more involved in some form or level of corruption that he may have felt would be eventually discovered as the investigation into the inventory unfolded.

It's worth noting (for me) that any evidence to those kinds of contributing factors would point more in the direction of an intentional suicide rather than one that was not actually intended.

 

[DexterMorgan]

Softail bopped in and bopped out, with the non-revelation, and expected that we would all pack up our tents and go home! Of course by doing that no one could pick his/her brain. JMO........I think we were supposed to think that he/she was privy to a dispute between FBI and Homeland Security but, of course after dropping that gem he/she hopped off. JMO

I remember that. So I'm surprised that the coroner wasn't privy either since they are not budging as of yet.

Also. In this case. Homicide or a non negligent accidental death would be needed to pay out the in line of duty death benefits. So the coroner would need to be privy to everything.

 

[DexterMorgan]

I didn't comment on any of the inventory stuff either. However, I do see how it could have played a part in the Lt's decision to off himself (considering the possibility that this was a suicide)

Even if the Lt was not suspected of any wrongdoing, he may have been more involved in some form or level of corruption that he may have felt would be eventually discovered as the investigation into the inventory unfolded.

It's worth noting (for me) that any evidence to those kinds of contributing factors would point more in the direction of an intentional suicide rather than one that was not actually intended.

Respectfully disagree due to the fact that he thought he had a good shot at being chief and was probably saddened by not getting it. But a person who is corrupt would not want the scrutiny that comes with being chief. Jmo