Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - #152 *ARREST - Richard Allen*

[ACG2x]

My current thought: KAK lured the girl(s) to the bridge for RA through the A_S's profile. While waiting for A_S on the bridge, the girls see RA approach and he does stand out as creepy, especially since they have cute A_S on their minds. Maybe RA approached and said something like, "Are you looking for that kid? I saw a guy who said he was waiting for someone - is that you? He's at the end of the bridge - I'll show you where I saw him." So, the girls go with him off the bridge and then he directs them, "Guys, down the hill."

IIRC, Kelsi said they could hear Libby on the recording responding to BG telling them to go down the hill with something like, "Huh?'" That would seem casual and appropriate if they thought BG was directing them to A_S. It would seem weird to go down the hill, but kinda plausible since they were there to meet A_S (assuming that is true) and BG seems to know where A_S is.

BRAINSTORMING. I'm speculating, and any ideas are subject to change as we learn more. I also think KAK was nearby, but how involved with the actual murders, IDK. Perhaps he took photos. ? JMO

jmo

Very plausible - but then why would Libby start taking cell phone video of him if she thought he was connected to anthony_shots?

I think it's generally understood that KK was the principal user of the a_s profile and was talking to Libby about meeting up on the bridge the next day while she was at the sleepover. That's been reported in multiple news articles and is in the transcript of KK's interview.

The missing piece here still is if KK was the one talking with Libby less than 20 hours before she died about meeting up on the same bridge she died on, but LE told KK in his interview they genuinely believe he didn't personally murder the girls which is obvious now because RA has been charged with that, where/how/why does RA come into play?

1. Did RA know KK and if so, how?
2. Did RA & KK plan this together or did RA know the girls would be on the bridge from using the a_s profile which KK said many others did, which LE indicated they seem to believe.
3. What was the purpose of the bridge meetup from KK's perspective? He told LE he talked to young girls online because he was lonely, so was this just a power thing to him to boost his ego? Like, hey look how I can make these young girls do whatever I say, etc.
4. What was the purpose of the bridge meetup from RA's perspective? Since he's been charged with their murders, it's obvious that's what LE thinks he did to them. Did he go to the bridge to purposely murder them and if so, why? Or was it a sexual perversion thing that went wrong and then he thought, OK I have to eliminate the evidence.

In my mind, I envision a bridge of evidence that connects all the pieces and I can get halfway across and see RA as the killer on the other side, however there's a large section in the middle missing about how we go from KK talking to Libby on IG to RA murdering the girls at the exact spot KK asked her to meet him at on the exact day.

 

[SuziQ]

My current thought: KAK lured the girl(s) to the bridge for RA through the A_S's profile. While waiting for A_S on the bridge, the girls see RA approach and he does stand out as creepy, especially since they have cute A_S on their minds. Maybe RA approached and said something like, "Are you looking for that kid? I saw a guy who said he was waiting for someone - is that you? He's at the end of the bridge - I'll show you where I saw him." So, the girls go with him off the bridge and then he directs them, "Guys, down the hill."

IIRC, Kelsi said they could hear Libby on the recording responding to BG telling them to go down the hill with something like, "Huh?'" That would seem casual and appropriate if they thought BG was directing them to A_S. It would seem weird to go down the hill, but kinda plausible since they were there to meet A_S (assuming that is true) and BG seems to know where A_S is.

BRAINSTORMING. I'm speculating, and any ideas are subject to change as we learn more. I also think KAK was nearby, but how involved with the actual murders, IDK. Perhaps he took photos. ? JMO

jmo

I really like this theory. RA probably knew Libby's name and could have called her name out. IMO.

 

[ACG2x]

I've seen them waffle back and forth began posing and staging.

In my opinion the bodies were posed.
But bodies can be posed for reasons other than for photos also. People tend to get stuck on the photos aspect (as do investigators) but sometimes it's just for momentary gratification. Nothing more.

Could that be why they searched RA's fire pit and reportedly took it? My progression of thought here is, all speculation and moo:

1. RA murders the girls and poses them for sexual gratification
2. RA takes pictures of the posed bodies and keeps them as 'trophies'
3. KK gets arrested and almost has to be connected w/ RA somehow (to what extent, we don't know)
4. RA sees KK got arrested and thinks "uh oh" and tries to destroy evidence which includes burning the pictures in his fire pit
5. LE seizes the fire pit because there could be trace evidence of the burned pictures which directly links RA to the crime

 

[Jillyg]

I'm surprised he didn't move away if I'm honest once the video and audio came out, even just far enough that he didn't need to frequent Delphi often/at all. I can understand not initially as it might raise suspicion, but in the years since? Bizarre, even sociopaths tend to have the instinct of self-preservation.

A huge number of serial killers kill within a certain radius of their home.
For many many years.
I remember a professor putting a pic of maps on a slide show (I'm aging myself) and i can still see the concentric circles highlighted and how almost perfectly symmetrical many of them were from where serial killers live to the crime.

The same holds true many times for crimes of strangers and kids. Killer usually lives within a relatively small radius of the murder.

Was RA a serial killer? Idk but he had the makings of one. This is possibly his first attempt. IMO

 

[The Observer]

Could that be why they searched RA's fire pit and reportedly took it? My progression of thought here is, all speculation and moo:

1. RA murders the girls and poses them for sexual gratification
2. RA takes pictures of the posed bodies and keeps them as 'trophies'
3. KK gets arrested and almost has to be connected w/ RA somehow (to what extent, we don't know)
4. RA sees KK got arrested and thinks "uh oh" and tries to destroy evidence which includes burning the pictures in his fire pit
5. LE seizes the fire pit because there could be trace evidence of the burned pictures which directly links RA to the crime

LE didn't take the fire pit.

 

[SuziQ]

Very plausible - but then why would Libby start taking cell phone video of him if she thought he was connected to anthony_shots?

I think it's generally understood that KK was the principal user of the a_s profile and was talking to Libby about meeting up on the bridge the next day while she was at the sleepover. That's been reported in multiple news articles and is in the transcript of KK's interview.

The missing piece here still is if KK was the one talking with Libby less than 20 hours before she died about meeting up on the same bridge she died on, but LE told KK in his interview they genuinely believe he didn't personally murder the girls which is obvious now because RA has been charged with that, where/how/why does RA come into play?

1. Did RA know KK and if so, how?
2. Did RA & KK plan this together or did RA know the girls would be on the bridge from using the a_s profile which KK said many others did, which LE indicated they seem to believe.
3. What was the purpose of the bridge meetup from KK's perspective? He told LE he talked to young girls online because he was lonely, so was this just a power thing to him to boost his ego? Like, hey look how I can make these young girls do whatever I say, etc.
4. What was the purpose of the bridge meetup from RA's perspective? Since he's been charged with their murders, it's obvious that's what LE thinks he did to them. Did he go to the bridge to purposely murder them and if so, why? Or was it a sexual perversion thing that went wrong and then he thought, OK I have to eliminate the evidence.

In my mind, I envision a bridge of evidence that connects all the pieces and I can get halfway across and see RA as the killer on the other side, however there's a large section in the middle missing about how we go from KK talking to Libby on IG to RA murdering the girls at the exact spot KK asked her to meet him at on the exact day.

I'm not sure how they connect. But KK shared his password with other paedophiles on his social media and drop box. They all would have seen each other's conversations on those accounts. So whether they both planned to be at the bridge together or RA took advantage of the situation because he merely read about the meet up with KK, IDK.

 

[Inthedetails]

Very plausible - but then why would Libby start taking cell phone video of him if she thought he was connected to anthony_shots?

I think it's generally understood that KK was the principal user of the a_s profile and was talking to Libby about meeting up on the bridge the next day while she was at the sleepover. That's been reported in multiple news articles and is in the transcript of KK's interview.

The missing piece here still is if KK was the one talking with Libby less than 20 hours before she died about meeting up on the same bridge she died on, but LE told KK in his interview they genuinely believe he didn't personally murder the girls which is obvious now because RA has been charged with that, where/how/why does RA come into play?

1. Did RA know KK and if so, how?
2. Did RA & KK plan this together or did RA know the girls would be on the bridge from using the a_s profile which KK said many others did, which LE indicated they seem to believe.
3. What was the purpose of the bridge meetup from KK's perspective? He told LE he talked to young girls online because he was lonely, so was this just a power thing to him to boost his ego? Like, hey look how I can make these young girls do whatever I say, etc.
4. What was the purpose of the bridge meetup from RA's perspective? Since he's been charged with their murders, it's obvious that's what LE thinks he did to them. Did he go to the bridge to purposely murder them and if so, why? Or was it a sexual perversion thing that went wrong and then he thought, OK I have to eliminate the evidence.

In my mind, I envision a bridge of evidence that connects all the pieces and I can get halfway across and see RA as the killer on the other side, however there's a large section in the middle missing about how we go from KK talking to Libby on IG to RA murdering the girls at the exact spot KK asked her to meet him at on the exact day.

Again, this is BRAINSTORMING, not anything more than that.

In my current hunch, girls wouldn't have known BG was connected to A_S until he spoke to them. From a distance, he was just creepy and certainly not what the girls were expecting (assuming they were expecting A_S). Perhaps Libby starting filming not as a safety thing but for SM content, to view with friends later, etc. Why do any of us take photos and videos when we are out and about - we take images of something that catches our eyes and perhaps Libby was capturing lots of images that day when along comes a creepy guy that could be interesting viewing later. Once the situation went awry, then perhaps her recording turning into a safety/evidence-gathering motive. The situation changed over a few minutes and I can assume her thoughts and reactions changed too.

Yes, I think RA went there specifically to kill at least one girl. Not sure he expected two. Then again, Libby posted Abby on Snapchat so if he were watching that, he might have known Abby was there too. Again hunch, brainstorm, speculation. I don't know what was in RA's brain that day.

What was KAK's motive to be there? I think he made his money through his online crimes and this was perhaps a money-making endeavor and perhaps personally exciting too. YUCK. jmojmojmo

Speculation only. I could very well be entirely off-base. Ideas subject to change. jmo jmo jmo

 

[GatorFL]

That is quite the alias. As a retired banker, what I mean is, alias' are usually variations of a person's real name to include variations of maiden and previous married names for women. The few times I ran across a completely different unrelated alias it was usually hiding crimes or previous sketchy financial dealings. There were a lot of people who had no idea of their spouses hidden life. This made for some interesting discussions between them as they were sitting at my desk being turned down for a loan or mortgage.

I'm very curious to find what this alias is about.

Craigh is a real person in Indiana. A retired banker would know that clerical errors in databases are far too common. JMO

 

[Inthedetails]

I'm not sure how they connect. But KK shared his password with other paedophiles on his social media and drop box. They all would have seen each other's conversations on those accounts. So whether they both planned to be at the bridge together or RA took advantage of the situation because he merely read about the meet up with KK, IDK.

RA lives so close to the bridge. Maybe he saw Libby's snapchat of Abby and headed over? He lived only minutes away. I never thought of that possibility, but....it's possible?

jmo

 

[CSIDreamer]

Yes, I was quite surprised to learn about the search, the car seizure, the apprehension, the court appearance that all happened before the news broke.

jmo

It feels like it happened in a vacuum.

 

[SuziQ]

Craigh is a real person in Indiana. A retired banker would know that clerical errors in databases are far too common. JMO

I know that. And there is such a thing as stolen identities. Why would the mods allow discussion of this if it were a clerical error? The mods made a post allowing it in the last thread.

 

[BUF]

RA lives so close to the bridge. Maybe he saw Libby's snapchat of Abby and headed over? He lived only minutes away. I never thought of that possibility, but....it's possible?

jmo

I’d like to know if he had the day off from work or just didn’t show up that day. I’m sure LE has been in contact with CVS about this and they have provided that information.

 

[DeadStick]

I've been thinking of the same book. A murdered young girl, "watching" her family and the investigation into her death.

I feel relief.

I feel relief because Libby, obviously before she and Abby were slaughtered, had the astonishing presence of mind to start recording this man who was approaching them and ordering them down the hill.

Maybe Libby felt creeped out and thought she'd show her family and LE this video of some guy who made them uncomfortable.

We know that she didn't get that chance, and there's more to the video that's been withheld.

But she DID record enough for there to be a "Bridge Guy," and even if it took over 5 1/2 years, she did what she could to arrest the man who did it.

I feel relief that LE, the families, and we the strangers can now know that last face they saw. I feel like they're less alone now.

I feel relief, even though I want to know so many details, but that day will come, just like this day came at last.

IMO

Could that be why they searched RA's fire pit and reportedly took it? My progression of thought here is, all speculation and moo:

1. RA murders the girls and poses them for sexual gratification
2. RA takes pictures of the posed bodies and keeps them as 'trophies'
3. KK gets arrested and almost has to be connected w/ RA somehow (to what extent, we don't know)
4. RA sees KK got arrested and thinks "uh oh" and tries to destroy evidence which includes burning the pictures in his fire pit
5. LE seizes the fire pit because there could be trace evidence of the burned pictures which directly links RA to the crime

The poses could have been staged to leave a terrible impression on the minds of the people who discovered them and the investigators who had to deal with them, or perhaps a diversion to muddy the waters. Like Charles Manson telling his followers to leave something witchy at the crime scene.

 

[Jillyg]

Could that be why they searched RA's fire pit and reportedly took it? My progression of thought here is, all speculation and moo:

1. RA murders the girls and poses them for sexual gratification
2. RA takes pictures of the posed bodies and keeps them as 'trophies'
3. KK gets arrested and almost has to be connected w/ RA somehow (to what extent, we don't know)
4. RA sees KK got arrested and thinks "uh oh" and tries to destroy evidence which includes burning the pictures in his fire pit
5. LE seizes the fire pit because there could be trace evidence of the burned pictures which directly links RA to the crime

The "firepit" i saw wasn't portable.

I lean towards him not taking photos. But anything is possible.

It's clear to me there was a struggle. moo.

I think that struggle was with libby, the more fiesty one. Just using logic here.

I think she was his target but i don't think she was his specific target before he got there.
I just mean out of the 2 girls.

I feel like from things her sis has said that it's her missing some sort of clothing or something.
She had a more developed body and presented more as a woman than little girl. Abby was skinny and not as matured physically.

So if my thoughts on that are correct and those are just my deductions from public info, then I don't think he's into little girls.

And that, to me, is just one among many reasons that I'm pretty sure KK had nothing to do with this, knowing what we know now (KK didn't get a plea deal so he hasnt given any info that was helpful likely)
Killers like him USUALLY do not hobnob with people like kk and his dad.

I think this was a lucky break and no connection to that whole ring

And that is one of the weirdest and strangest coincidences I've ever seen im a murder investigation. If that doesn't make the criminal justice textbooks, it's a missed opportunity. Imo

 

[SuziQ]

RA lives so close to the bridge. Maybe he saw Libby's snapchat of Abby and headed over? He lived only minutes away. I never thought of that possibility, but....it's possible?

jmo

It is possible. But what a huge coincidence that both KK and RA were involved and they didn't know each other. But yes, it is possible. IMO.

 

[vliam]

I believe the mods are allowing discussion because it is not an error. IMO.

I don't think the mods have any special insight into whether the alias was correct or not. It's simply become part of public record.

 

[infinit]

A huge number of serial killers kill within a certain radius of their home.
For many many years.
I remember a professor putting a pic of maps on a slide show (I'm aging myself) and i can still see the concentric circles highlighted and how almost perfectly symmetrical many of them were from where serial killers live to the crime.

The same holds true many times for crimes of strangers and kids. Killer usually lives within a relatively small radius of the murder.

Was RA a serial killer? Idk but he had the makings of one. This is possibly his first attempt. IMO

Not surprised he was relatively local. Most serial killers aren't caught on video with audio however. It'll certainly be interesting to see if he gets tied to anything else now they likely have his DNA etc.

As another poster replied to me, I guessing having a family and his job being in Delphi, it would be challenging for him to move even if he wanted to.

 

[Inthedetails]

The poses could have been staged to leave a terrible impression on the minds of the people who discovered them and the investigators who had to deal with them, or perhaps a diversion to muddy the waters. Like Charles Manson telling his followers to leave something witchy at the crime scene.

I totally think part of the purpose of posing is to shock the responders. It's a form of violence not only against the victims but society at large. My opinion.

jmo

 

[M.James]

Please understand that there are too many responses to read every one. So, I don't say this as a Eureka moment for anyone other than myself. More or less talking out loud.

The idea that they moved RA for his safety has just been an almost nothing clue for me, thinking they moved him because they were afraid of what an angry mob might do, but after a few days of reading around, and wondering about Carter saying that "today is not the day", I now think they are protecting him from whoever else might be involved, which may be more than I suspected.

 

[Trebor5591]

<snip>
The missing piece here still is if KK was the one talking with Libby less than 20 hours before she died about meeting up on the same bridge she died on, <snip>

The girls did not die on the Monon High Bridge. They were kidnapped from the end of the bridge and taken down the hill to the banks of Deer Creek where they were murdered, about 1/4 mile from the bridge.