Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #161

[gizmobtj]

why they didn't hang onto RA like a dog on a bone from day one is just mind-blowing...for me anyone who says they were at the scene of a murder + SA well..they immediately go to the very front of the line and you throw them on the barbecue, was it a "clerical error" ? or something else?

and as for RA? what exactly was he trying to accomplish by meeting LE at the grocery store?

re-inserting himself into the case
attention
re-living his crime
confessing
creating an "honesty patch" for future questioning? " yeah I was there that day! I told LE!"
trying to find out what they know so far
trying to get an ally to smush any suspicions about him.

all of this?

he had to have a reason for this meeting. mOO

Too many tips and too many other credible suspects, I suspect. This investigation, obviously, wad not perfect. Very human, though

 

[minazoe]

the more I think of RA meeting with LE I start to consider it as even more of a manipulation...so let's say he knows he was seen..he gets a conservation officer to meet with him..now he has a chance to get sympathy..you know....he knows he was seen..he knows it. He's not at the station so he can control the situation more.

he didn't know what to do, because he was at the park and he's just a nice guy from cvs watching fishes and oh man what is he gonna do now? and he's freaked out etc..am I in trouble? I thought I should tell someone..really man I would do anything to help..He's go a wife and kid and she works at the vet..what do they think happened? of all the days to wear
my blue jacket...Im so scared, what if this killer saw me? I have to protect my family, what should I do?

manipulating to get it out there, but also to get a sympathy pass and not get dragged in.

it makes me wonder about what actually went down with this "paperwork". maybe I just have an over active imagination! mOO

 

[Vern]

Good point. I do agree. If you can narrow it to 1 in 5 or even 1 in 10, it's good circumstantial evidence that you can pile on with circumstantial evidence. I think your total Sigs might have to go broader than Delphi, but, yes, it would be a good foundation for a circumstantial case.

Sure. And, couple that with the fact that they had something else substantial that let them into that house to search it in the first place ...

and the gun that matched that round wasn't found until they did the search; it came afterwards (for all those hoping the round "isn't all they've got").

There's more there there, and obviously more evidence - we've just yet to see it.

I get that as, after all, why would they put all their evidence into the PC affadavit for arrest when the witnesses' and his own statements and admissions and the matching round suffice for arrest?

Why give the defence all your evidence before disclosure disclosure dictates you have to? That would be silly.

 

[Chelly]

the more I think of RA meeting with LE I start to consider it as even more of a manipulation...so let's say he knows he was seen..he gets a conservation officer to meet with him..now he has a chance to get sympathy..you know....he knows he was seen..he knows it. He's not at the station so he can control the situation more.

he didn't know what to do, because he was at the park and he's just a nice guy from cvs watching fishes and oh man what is he gonna do now? and he's freaked out etc..am I in trouble? I thought I should tell someone..really man I would do anything to help..He's go a wife and kid and she works at the vet..what do they think happened? of all the days to wear
my blue jacket...Im so scared, what if this killer saw me? I have to protect my family, what should I do?

manipulating to get it out there, but also to get a sympathy pass and not get dragged in.

it makes me wonder about what actually went down with this "paperwork". maybe I just have an over active imagination! mOO

Agree with this^^ He was conniving and presented himself to officer as humble and shy and just an all-around nice guy, ...a local CVS worker, long time resident in good standing. Doing civic responsibility by going to official to say he took an afternoon walk on bridge that day. LE was probably so swamped immediately after the killings, they dismissed him. moo

 

[Springrain]

I am not bashing LE, the FBI, etc. in any way, but I do think the heavy focus on RL on the beginning distracted from RA. Plus I doubt he seemed suspicious initially since he was relatively forthcoming. JMO.

 

[Chelly]

Sure. And, couple that with the fact that they had something else substantial that let them into that house to search it in the first place ...

and the gun that matched that round wasn't found until they did the search; it came afterwards (for all those hoping the round "isn't all they've got").

There's more there there, and obviously more evidence - we've just yet to see it.

I get that as, after all, why would they put all their evidence into the PC affadavit for arrest when the witnesses' and his own statements and admissions and the matching round suffice for arrest?

Why give the defence all your evidence before disclosure disclosure dictates you have to? That would be silly.

Prosecution is going to play as few cards as possible until required by law to disclose its hand during discovery. Prosecutor in no way wants to compromise this case. I agree with any gag orders placed by the court. We don't need to know at this time if anyone else is involved. I'm confident LE has plenty of evidence against RA. moo

 

[StarryStarryNight]

why they didn't hang onto RA like a dog on a bone from day one is just mind-blowing...for me anyone who says they were at the scene of a murder + SA well..they immediately go to the very front of the line and you throw them on the barbecue, was it a "clerical error" ? or something else?

and as for RA? what exactly was he trying to accomplish by meeting LE at the grocery store?

re-inserting himself into the case
attention
re-living his crime
confessing
creating an "honesty patch" for future questioning? " yeah I was there that day! I told LE!"
trying to find out what they know so far
trying to get an ally to smush any suspicions about him.

all of this?

he had to have a reason for this meeting. mOO

These are very good points.
Also we do not know the circumstances that led to RA meeting with the conservation officer in the grocery store. Did RA call LE to set it up? Did he mention it to the CO who happened to be in the drug store he was in the trail that day?
Either way, RA instigated the meeting in some way. There is nothing in the PCA that indicates LE sought him out or that anyone else on the trails identified him as being there.
RA placed himself in LE’s files.
At the April 2019 press conference Doug Carter said of the killer “you want to know what we know”. LE’s profiler got that right. There is no reason for RA to meet with that CO unless he was hoping to find out what LE was looking at. I wonder what he found out from the CO.

 

[Spartygirl]

It’s not a conspiracy. iIf you choose to believe he was trying to avoid a dui even though his false alibi didn’t relate to that at all, that’s your choice. His alibi had nothing to do with his driving that day.

I am not convinced RL had anything to do with Libby & Abby’s death, but him asking for an alibi for when they were killed at 9a on 2/14 is suspicious.

But they were NOT killed on 2/14 at 9 AM
They were killed on 2/13 in the afternoon and Found on 2/14

 

[Gemmie]

Not to mention that RA already said he had never let anyone borrow his gun, nor had he even been on that property.

All I've got is Liar liar pants on fire.

 

[Counttrarian]

As have I. Interestingly enough, we found the gentleman "not guilty".

But then, we weren't dealing with a case where:

- multiple, credible witnesses placed only a single, solitary male in extremely close proximity to a double murder crime scene where
- the victims also happened to have captured that male on video in that close proximity to cime scene at same time, wearing
- clothing described by witnessness and by the male suspect himself who also
- placed himself at the bridge where the crime began at the time the crime began wearing the same-type clothing the recorded suspect was admittedly wearing and
- the suspect himself never having seen another male in the vicinity either and
- who never stepped foot on the murder site and who
- never loaned his gun to anyone but
- whose unspent round, science shows, cycled through his gun and
- which just somehow miraculously ended up laying at the scene of the crime between the two victims and
- who also matched same, solitary male departing the immediate victinity of the crime all the while witnessed once again in
- bloody and muddy clothing that matched earlier lone male clothing descriptions walking up the road away from the crime scene. And all done at
- a time consistent with shortly after the crime occured which was
- also the time he admitted leaving the trails (yet he never heard or saw a thing ---lol).


Yet, some think it's actually "reasonable" that a thief or someone snuck into his house and - for whatever reason - stole a round he had cycled through his gun, or found it somewhere on the trail and "just happened to drop it in the midst of the scene of a crime" that he, himself would later be accused of committing. He, the only male seen there by multiple witnesses and where he placed himself at the time in question in the clothing in question. Nope; not reasonable.

Sorry, that's NOT reasonable. The odds are astronomical and ergo not reasonable. Hopefully, the judge gives this jury the same definition of what contstitutes "reasonable" that the jury I sat on got.

From what's written above you're stating the prosecution's case at face value (to the point of considering the unspent round "evidence" as science when even experts disagree) and haven't even considered the defense case.
"Sorry, that's NOT reasonable."
And then state the defendant is guilty beyond reasonable doubt prior to even hearing the evidence.
This is precisely why the Defense argues for a change of venue and judges grant gag orders. Jurors are not supposed to have any bias prior to heading into a case.
The deaths were obviously tragic, but our system of jurisprudence matters even more.
ALL IMHO

 

[minazoe]

These are very good points.
Also we do not know the circumstances that led to RA meeting with the conservation officer in the grocery store. Did RA call LE to set it up? Did he mention it to the CO who happened to be in the drug store he was in the trail that day?
Either way, RA instigated the meeting in some way. There is nothing in the PCA that indicates LE sought him out or that anyone else on the trails identified him as being there.
RA placed himself in LE’s files.
At the April 2019 press conference Doug Carter said of the killer “you want to know what we know”. LE’s profiler got that right. There is no reason for RA to meet with that CO unless he was hoping to find out what LE was looking at. I wonder what he found out from the CO.

I mean he got away with it! for five years...he was sitting pretty... I wonder why he never dared to check in again..or did he? did he send in tips? call in? we don't know very much..but he doesn't seem capable of restraint as he came so very close to this case as to implicate himself..I feel like he would shamelessly continue to seek attention. mOO

 

[gizmobtj]

My case for the strongest evidence RA was involved, all from the PCA:

First, no other males were reported on the trail between 2:13 p.m. and the search.

Second, the timeline:

short version for those who don't want to read my homework: there is a 21 minute period where a witness, the girls, RA and Unsub (if it's somehow not RA) all collide within a 0.3 space and there is no way RA could have NOT seen the girls)

Alrighty, according to the RA PCA we could have one to three cars parked at the old CPS Building -- a smart car, a black Ford Focus and a purple PT Cruiser. The Focus is RAs car and a "vehicle matching the description of his 2016 Ford Focus" passes the Hooiser Harveststore at 6563 W 300 N at 1:27 p.m. and at the old CPS Building at 2:14 p.m.
(The smart car is seen at 2:28, so add that if you believe that's RA's car; and add the purple PT Cruiser at 2:10 if yoy think thats also a terrible case of mistaken identity). The trip from the Hooiser Harveststore to the Old CPS Building is 1 minute by car, so let's say he's there at the latest at 1:30 p.m. (RA says he was on the trail from 1:30 p.m. to 3:30 p.m.)

If he goes straight there, he's likely at the Freedom Bridge at 1:46 p.m. It's an approximately 16 minute walk.

The first group of witnesses see the Unsub at after taking a picture of a bench east of the Freedom Bridge at 1:26 p.m. The walk between the bridges is 13 minutes, but we know the witnesses were going slow because they took a picture at the Monon High Bridge at 12:43 p.m. and the bench at 1:26 p.m. So, not just slow but super slow. That puts them on a collison course with the Unsub. Tracks.

The PCA says witnessess walk across the railroad bridge east of the Freedom Bridge plaza after 1:26 p.m. and before 1:46 p.m. Unlike the other times, the PCA does not say how they know it was 1:46 p.m.

Another witness arrives at 1:46 p.m. at the Mears Farm to the High Bridge. She sees the Unsub on the first platform of the bridge around and she turns around. She sees two girls (presumably Abby and Libby) halfway between the bridge and the Mears Farm parking lot. The walk from Mears Farm parking to the first platform is 6 minutes. So, the run in with the Unsub and then the girls seems like it would be between 1:52 and 2:05.

Libby's video is taken at 2:13 p.m.

Unless someone happened to be behind the girls or parachuted onto the trail like a paratrooper that is a tight window.

Afterwards gets a little murkier. The walk along the road between the far south edge of the Delphi Cemetry by the crime scene to the Old CPS Building is 19 minutes if you follow the highway and 26 minutes if you get back on the trail at the smaller drop off point. A witness sees an Unsub on the road at 3:57 p.m. This witnesses car was caught on camera at the Hooiser Harveststore seconds before. The walk for where CR 300 hits the cemetry and the trailhead near Mears Farm is 7 minutes. That would put the Unsub at the CPS Building at 4:23 p.m. at the latest 4:07 p.m. at the earliest.

In the 2019 press conference, the police ask for info from "between 12 p.m. and 5 p.m." about a "driver of a vehicle they say was parked at the old CPS/DCS Welfare Building in Delphi and later abandoned on the east side of CR 300N."

Why 12 p.m. and abandoned after 5 p.m. on the East Side of CR 300N (the same side as the CPS Building)? Begs the question of what else LE was told about cars at the CPS building before 1:30 p.m. and what they were talking about re: an abandoned car. I digress.

But ... it sure would make RA the unluckilest man in the world if the Unsub is BG and its not RA.

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2022/11/Probable-Cause-Affidavit-Richard-Allen.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjOm5Px45f8AhX5oXIEHaZLDOkQFnoECBcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw31hsNIFFcRYpS-2z1FHwFw

 

[schooling]

Any individual piece of evidence on its own introduces plenty of reasonable doubt.

But when told along a timeline it paints a damning picture.

All prosecutors have to do is take the jury on a field trip and walk them along that trail and bridge. And then take them on a trip along that timeline in a courtroom. At that point the bullet becomes icing on the cake.

The totality of the evidence is what people who are calling this a weak case should be looking at. How many coincidences and outliers are you willing to accept in one 5 hour block?

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Any individual piece of evidence on its own introduces plenty of reasonable doubt.

But when told along a timeline it paints a damning picture.

All prosecutors have to do is take the jury on a field trip and walk them along that trail and bridge. And then take them on a trip along that timeline in a courtroom. At that point the bullet becomes icing on the cake.

The totality of the evidence is what people who are calling this a weak case should be looking at. How many coincidences and outliers are you willing to accept in one 5 hour block?

Excellent!

 

[LeahBee]

I think an important thing to consider with the varying descriptions of the parked car, and the clothing the man on the trail was wearing is if that was the only car and only man seen.
If the three witnesses are describing one man who they saw all at the same time - it's safe to assume there was only one man, even if the clothing description is different.
If there are three different vehicle descriptions but it was the ONLY car in the parking lot during the time frame then we can also assume these quite different descriptions are all the same car.
This suggests it's more likely that people were misremembering descriptions than there being a second man in black or light blue, or a second or third car.
Just yesterday I passed by a car that had rolled off a road and was 45° on a hill in a cemetery. I passed by twice before reporting it. The dispatcher asked for a vehicle description- I told her 4 door sedan, dark green. Passed by again today, vehicle still there but, wait, it's blue??? Passed by a fourth time and ... green again? Sitting here after seeing the same vehicle four times, I couldn't tell you if it was green or blue :|

Hope what I'm saying makes sense, very sleep deprived lol

Jmo

 

[Arkay]

My case for the strongest evidence RA was involved, all from the PCA:

First, no other males were reported on the trail between 2:13 p.m. and the search.

Second, the timeline:

short version for those who don't want to read my homework: there is a 21 minute period where a witness, the girls, RA and Unsub (if it's somehow not RA) all collide within a 0.3 space and there is no way RA could have NOT seen the girls)

Alrighty, according to the RA PCA we could have one to three cars parked at the old CPS Building -- a smart car, a black Ford Focus and a purple PT Cruiser. The Focus is RAs car and a "vehicle matching the description of his 2016 Ford Focus" passes the Hooiser Harveststore at 6563 W 300 N at 1:27 p.m. and at the old CPS Building at 2:14 p.m.
(The smart car is seen at 2:28, so add that if you believe that's RA's car; and add the purple PT Cruiser at 2:10 if yoy think thats also a terrible case of mistaken identity). The trip from the Hooiser Harveststore to the Old CPS Building is 1 minute by car, so let's say he's there at the latest at 1:30 p.m. (RA says he was on the trail from 1:30 p.m. to 3:30 p.m.)

If he goes straight there, he's likely at the Freedom Bridge at 1:46 p.m. It's an approximately 16 minute walk.

The first group of witnesses see the Unsub at after taking a picture of a bench east of the Freedom Bridge at 1:26 p.m. The walk between the bridges is 13 minutes, but we know the witnesses were going slow because they took a picture at the Monon High Bridge at 12:43 p.m. and the bench at 1:26 p.m. So, not just slow but super slow. That puts them on a collison course with the Unsub. Tracks.

The PCA says witnessess walk across the railroad bridge east of the Freedom Bridge plaza after 1:26 p.m. and before 1:46 p.m. Unlike the other times, the PCA does not say how they know it was 1:46 p.m.

Another witness arrives at 1:46 p.m. at the Mears Farm to the High Bridge. She sees the Unsub on the first platform of the bridge around and she turns around. She sees two girls (presumably Abby and Libby) halfway between the bridge and the Mears Farm parking lot. The walk from Mears Farm parking to the first platform is 6 minutes. So, the run in with the Unsub and then the girls seems like it would be between 1:52 and 2:05.

Libby's video is taken at 2:13 p.m.

Unless someone happened to be behind the girls or parachuted onto the trail like a paratrooper that is a tight window.

Afterwards gets a little murkier. The walk along the road between the far south edge of the Delphi Cemetry by the crime scene to the Old CPS Building is 19 minutes if you follow the highway and 26 minutes if you get back on the trail at the smaller drop off point. A witness sees an Unsub on the road at 3:57 p.m. This witnesses car was caught on camera at the Hooiser Harveststore seconds before. The walk for where CR 300 hits the cemetry and the trailhead near Mears Farm is 7 minutes. That would put the Unsub at the CPS Building at 4:23 p.m. at the latest 4:07 p.m. at the earliest.

In the 2019 press conference, the police ask for info from "between 12 p.m. and 5 p.m." about a "driver of a vehicle they say was parked at the old CPS/DCS Welfare Building in Delphi and later abandoned on the east side of CR 300N."

Why 12 p.m. and abandoned after 5 p.m. on the East Side of CR 300N (the same side as the CPS Building)? Begs the question of what else LE was told about cars at the CPS building before 1:30 p.m. and what they were talking about re: an abandoned car. I digress.

But ... it sure would make RA the unluckilest man in the world if the Unsub is BG and its not RA.

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2022/11/Probable-Cause-Affidavit-Richard-Allen.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjOm5Px45f8AhX5oXIEHaZLDOkQFnoECBcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw31hsNIFFcRYpS-2z1FHwFw

Imo this is an excellent and cogent analysis.

I read it all, but just in case I’ll say what I understand, if it was TL;DR for anyone.

TL;DR—-Libby and Abby were on the bridge at a particular time. RA was in the same location at the same time as recounted by witnesses and his own narrative.

A man was in the same location at the same time and was caught on video giving a menacing command to Abby and Libby. He wears clothing similar to RA’s account of his clothing.

Libby and Abby are murdered.

No other men were seen by witnesses in the same location at the same time.

Not even counting the bullet, it is at least at MINIMUM a lot of circumstantial evidence.

IMO

 

[Boxer]

Agree with this^^ He was conniving and presented himself to officer as humble and shy and just an all-around nice guy, ...a local CVS worker, long time resident in good standing. Doing civic responsibility by going to official to say he took an afternoon walk on bridge that day. LE was probably so swamped immediately after the killings, they dismissed him. moo

Does anyone know if he talked to the CO on 2/13 or 2/14?

 

[Boxer]

The witness crossed paths with A&L at 1:55 walking back from after seeing RA on the MHB first platform.
Mears lot is 5 minutes from the North end of MHB.

The girls were walking to the bridge, RA self reports that after standing on the MHB platform that he walked back along the trail and sat on a bench - there are benches on the trail first one he would encounter is at the Mears lot.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Does anyone know if he talked to the CO on 2/13 or 2/14?

I've not seen an exact day and/or time, it's just been reported as "shortly after" (paraphrasing) the girls were found.

 

[M. Kay]

At the April 2019 press conference Doug Carter said of the killer “you want to know what we know”. LE’s profiler got that right. There is no reason for RA to meet with that CO unless he was hoping to find out what LE was looking at. I wonder what he found out from the CO.

Over the years, Carter's quote "you want to know what we know"*** seemed but hollow bluff to me. This opens my eyes, "StarryNight". It does fit RA's grocery store fishing the CO. in case he was seen there. Now, "directly to the killer who may be in this room;" do we know whether or not RA did attend presser? (Wasn't he in a photo posted here?). "Hiding in plain sight" at CVS drive-in; what is more abhorrent than telling Becky he wouldn't charge for funeral photos? ***"Some day you will." ... some day in 2023?