IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #163

[Ursamajr]

This also isn't good for their client really. He's inconsistent. One minute its one thing, the next is something different -- how the hell is a jury supposed to know which is the truth and which isn't? I really hope there is a strong case against him if he is guilty!!

I'm starting to think it's their strategy: obfuscate, obfuscate, obfuscate!
Watch his attorneys throw their hands up and walk out on him, delaying this even further.

 

[Boxer]

It is a lot of small details in the video that probably do not matter much now.

1. Early on in the case when the still picture and video came out, the position of the gun in the bridge guy's jacket seemed to be for someone who was left-handed. In a video of Richard Allen playing pool he looked to be right-handed.

MOO IMO People do stuff guns in jacket pockets at least as often as having proper holsters.

2. The height looked different than that of Richard Allen. But because of distance from where Liberty German took the phone video, it is hard to be sure about the height. The person in the video looked to be at least 5'9" tall although Richard Allen is described as 5'4" tall.

IIRC The description was originally 5'6" to 5'9" at least being short was noted in the description.

3. The facial features look more like someone who has deep facial tissue cheekline that falls down their face with a bigger nose.

MOO RA looks exactly the way I thought he would. A middle aged man with a tendency to glare from under his brow.

SomeQuestions: I thought maybe this person might have something wrong with their arms and legs as their physical stature when walking looks sort of slouched like they do not walk upright(and decreasing their height in the video).

MOO I thought BG was fairly athletic for a middle aged man. I have always interpreted his cross step as an aggressive cutting off move, as one might do to indicate to a dog that that they are not getting by you.

SomeQuestions: 4. The head covering looked like a floppy ear Swiss army type hat, not a ballcap. Maybe Richard Allen has a floppy ear Swiss army type hat? Out on the bridge, if it was a sunny day I thought Richard Allen might wear his sunglasses if he had them.

The jacket in the video seemed to be of a thinner material, like a windbreaker instead of a Carhartt jacket. You can see what looks like the outline of a gun.

MOO I see a possible hat hoodie combo. Agree the jacket looks
More like Champion snap coach jacket. I wonder if Carhartt did make some more windbreaker type jackets at one time. I will try to see.
Also, I think the police might have obscured the noticable logo in the stills and video so the many blue jackets being turned in by the public could be sorted as to whether relevant.


Some Questions 5. The last is timing of the bridge guy on the video. The picture of Abigail Williams was taken at 2:07pm. In the picture there does not look to be anyone behind her on the bridge and we know the picture taken before that by Liberty German of the entire bridge before Abigail Williams and Liberty German decided to cross shows no one on the bridge. The bridge guy video was taken at 2:13pm.

MOO waiting for them to be totally isolated, checking back down the trail, then quickly crossing the bridge to them.
MHB crossing is reputed to take about 5 minutes. That would mean leaving the north abutment at 2:08.

If Richard Allen had first crossed paths with Abby and Libby before Abby and Libby ever got to the beginning of the Monon High Bridge crossing, then why not abduct them and force them into the woods on that side of the bridge without having to cross the creek?

MOO he waited in the trees on the north side as they passed.

The one thing I definitely think is this was NOT a pre-planned crime meaning he was not completely certain of what he was going to do that day(if it is Richard Allen in the video which now most likely it is).

MOO I think this is very likely.
Opportunist.

I think even if Richard Allen went there with the intention of harming some victim that day, he must have sat around deciding what to do for at least 6 minutes. And even when he did decide what to do it does not take 6 minutes to cross the Monon High Bridge the way that person was walking when Liberty German videotaped them.

I suppose this makes sense now with the information about incriminating statements and confession by Richard Allen revealed in court yesterday. Richard Allen, with no criminal record, was deciding whether he should go through with it. He must have still been lurking around them within eyesight before Liberty German thought something was wrong when he decided what to do and began walking towards them at the end of the bridge.

At least as of yesterday, Richard Allen has made incriminating statements implicating himself in the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German so nothing really matters now, but these are the differences between what I saw in the video and Richard Allen.

The irony is that without the video I would think nothing about any of this and have no questions.

Thank you for your observations.
I saw it a little different, but really agree on it being an ambivalent opportunity crime.
Once committed and fatefully ordering them down the hill he took it to extremes.

 

[margarita25]

MOO Being a sad sack always worked before.

Feel free to elaborate

 

[margarita25]

I think it's a ploy to establish some mental condition that would help explain away his many confessions of guilt. Like his attorney said in the hearing basically "he doesn't know what he's saying". Good luck with that one.

I've said it often over these threads since his staged photo op with his weight loss, drool and awkward hand position, it's a defense strategy pure and simple. Once the Defense knew of those confessions, you can bet they devised a strategy to mitigate them any way possible.

ALL MOO

Hey Girl!

So, on this note, let’s say hypothetically RA’s attorneys think/know he is guilty of murdering Abby and Libby, and RA made incriminating statements with details that only the actual killer would know.

Of course it is the responsibility and job of the defense attorneys to protect their client, but don’t they also have some sort of LEGAL responsibility to make sure a child killer doesn’t go free, if they knoowww he killed them?

Don’t answer that....:sidefrown:

—-

I need to refresh defense lawyer attorney-client privilege as it relates to “moral responsibilities”, obligations, conditions, etc. in a situation if they know their client is guilty.

—-

Eta: Would consciously and purposefully going through the lengths of creating a scheme and ploy to deceptively fake a decline even be legal, assuming it could be proven?

Because IF that’s going on, it would be MAJOR BS and a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY, creating a deceptive and false ploy to let a child murderer go.
—

On a rant now lol. I really hope there are no bottom of the barrel BS tactics.

—

Eta: It of course goes without saying that every person is entitled to a defense and is innocent until proven guilty. And that defense attorneys are a part of the American Justice system, so my above question is not intended to initiate a discussion about bashing defense attorneys, rather to understand the specific rules, or lack thereof, a defense lawyer has to abide by, per legal code of conduct/standard, when they know a client is guilty. All the defense attorneys I see on TV, etc. they always say they their client is innocent.

Going in to see what exactly the rule is. Rusty.

Eta2: That’s a long rabbit hole.

 

[Boxer]

Feel free to elaborate

MOO just that in the past he got his way by pouting or suliking, MOO its his stress tesponse.

 

[kittythehare]

Hey Girl!

So, on this note, let’s say hypothetically RA’s attorneys think/know he is guilty of murdering Abby and Libby, and RA made incriminating statements with details that only the actual killer would know.

Of course it is the responsibility and job of the defense attorneys to protect their client, but don’t they also have some sort of LEGAL responsibility to make sure a child killer doesn’t go free, if they knoowww he killed them?

Don’t answer that....:sidefrown:

—-

I need to refresh defense lawyer attorney-client privilege as it relates to “moral responsibilities”, obligations, conditions, etc. in a situation if they know their client is guilty.

—-

Eta: Would consciously and purposefully going through the lengths of creating a scheme and ploy to deceptively fake a decline even be legal, assuming it could be proven?

Because IF that’s going on, it would be MAJOR BS and a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY, creating a deceptive and false ploy to let a child murderer go.
—

On a rant now lol. I really hope there are no bottom of the barrel BS tactics.

—

Eta: It of course goes without saying that every person is entitled to a defense and is innocent until proven guilty. And that defense attorneys are a part of the American Justice system, so my above question is not intended to initiate a discussion about bashing defense attorneys, rather to understand the specific rules, or lack thereof, a defense lawyer has to abide by, per legal code of conduct/standard, when they know a client is guilty. All the defense attorneys I see on TV, etc. they always say they their client is innocent.

Going in to see what exactly the rule is. Rusty.

Eta2: That’s a long rabbit hole.

I think his decline is real, whether self induced or not.. he is broken physically and probably mentally too if he's chucking his ipad around while in a tantrum.
His dress code for court is odd and his lawyers would have an input here, they could have advised him to dress appropriately and show respect for the courts.
Maybe he chose to go full feral because he is deranged or thinks he is playing an elaborate game of being deranged, though he really has become unhinged...

He went free for such a long long time that he must have believed the danger had passed for him..

It's hard to hazard a guess at his behaviour personally and professionally following the murders.
I do wonder whether anything at all changed?
he was promoted at work, from shop floor to pharmacy tech.
He would have had ongoing relationships with the public.

I assume nothing weird happened.
His demeanour didn't change at all.

His wife still calls him 'her person'.
To me that indicates loyalty if not love.

What exactly did he read in the legal papers that drove him nuts?
What was the one thing?
This is the bit that confounds me.

 

[FromGermany1]

What exactly did he read in the legal papers that drove him nuts?
What was the one thing?
This is the bit that confounds me.

Our new "puzzle piece", yes!

 

[margarita25]

I had no idea until now that ballistics analysis was not a be all end all thing. Meaning, all those years of Forensic Files...the pictures of those perfectly matching striations...case solved.

 

[mrjitty]

So, on this note, let’s say hypothetically RA’s attorneys think/know he is guilty of murdering Abby and Libby, and RA made incriminating statements with details that only the actual killer would know.

Of course it is the responsibility and job of the defense attorneys to protect their client, but don’t they also have some sort of LEGAL responsibility to make sure a child killer doesn’t go free, if they knoowww he killed them?

RSBM

When I did the bar, we learned that if the client tells you they are guilty or makes some other kind of bad admission under attorney client privilege, you have to recuse if the client intends to plead inconsistently with that, as you cannot breach your first duty to the court.

Where the client made admissions to 3rd parties you don't have to recuse. e.g. in this case the admissions will be in evidence against the accused. But he still needs representation, even if obviously guilty

 

[mrjitty]

It sounds like they're attacking the gun evidence on two separate grounds:
1. The tool mark expert isn't a real expert and shouldn't be allowed to testify that the bullet matches the gun (Daubert hearing).
2. The search warrant for the house was invalid because LE lied in the affidavit supporting it (Franks hearing).

It seems all that stuff is on the back burner now that- the defence was very focussed on the prison issue

My guess is their shot at contesting bail went down in flames when he made damaging admissions - i guess if that continues, we may not get to trial at all.

I wonder if he pleads?

 

[Megnut]

MOO IMO People do stuff guns in jacket pockets at least as often as having proper holsters.

IIRC The description was originally 5'6" to 5'9" at least being short was noted in the description.


MOO RA looks exactly the way I thought he would. A middle aged man with a tendency to glare from under his brow.

SomeQuestions: I thought maybe this person might have something wrong with their arms and legs as their physical stature when walking looks sort of slouched like they do not walk upright(and decreasing their height in the video).

MOO I thought BG was fairly athletic for a middle aged man. I have always interpreted his cross step as an aggressive cutting off move, as one might do to indicate to a dog that that they are not getting by you.

SomeQuestions: 4. The head covering looked like a floppy ear Swiss army type hat, not a ballcap. Maybe Richard Allen has a floppy ear Swiss army type hat? Out on the bridge, if it was a sunny day I thought Richard Allen might wear his sunglasses if he had them.

The jacket in the video seemed to be of a thinner material, like a windbreaker instead of a Carhartt jacket. You can see what looks like the outline of a gun.

MOO I see a possible hat hoodie combo. Agree the jacket looks
More like Champion snap coach jacket. I wonder if Carhartt did make some more windbreaker type jackets at one time. I will try to see.
Also, I think the police might have obscured the noticable logo in the stills and video so the many blue jackets being turned in by the public could be sorted as to whether relevant.


Some Questions 5. The last is timing of the bridge guy on the video. The picture of Abigail Williams was taken at 2:07pm. In the picture there does not look to be anyone behind her on the bridge and we know the picture taken before that by Liberty German of the entire bridge before Abigail Williams and Liberty German decided to cross shows no one on the bridge. The bridge guy video was taken at 2:13pm.

MOO waiting for them to be totally isolated, checking back down the trail, then quickly crossing the bridge to them.
MHB crossing is reputed to take about 5 minutes. That would mean leaving the north abutment at 2:08.


MOO he waited in the trees on the north side as they passed.


MOO I think this is very likely.
Opportunist.


Thank you for your observations.
I saw it a little different, but really agree on it being an ambivalent opportunity crime.
Once committed and fatefully ordering them down the hill he took it to extremes.

For some reason, that 2:07 and 2:13 really struck me. 2:07, the girls having a free day, unaware.... 6 minutes.... they had fewer than 6 carefree minutes of life left....

A horror movie with no rewind.

 

[Vern]

If RA confessed using details only the killer would know I don’t think the defence would be claiming the admissions shouldn’t be trusted due to his mental state.

...

RSBM,

I would think that if RA confessed using details that only the killer would know, the defence would especially be claiming the admissios shouldn't be trusted due to his mental state (and any other myriad of reasons they can come up with); they definitely don't want any jury hearing him state things only the killer would know IMO.

 

[girlhasnoname]

True; but my point was he probably isn't the only one who knows those things. We have no idea how many people those things have been leaked to.

One thing that he might be the only one who knows is: what is wrong with all the re-enactments. Or maybe there is something the police put out to the public that the killer knows is not true.

I'm confused, who else would know these details? This information was not released to the public unless I somehow totally missed it. I don't even think the parents knew this type of detailed information.

I could be totally mistaken (happens often ), if so please link an approved source as I am curious now to figure this out.

Thanks

 

[Laughing]

I'm starting to think it's their strategy: obfuscate, obfuscate, obfuscate!
Watch his attorneys throw their hands up and walk out on him, delaying this even further.

Old saw about the job of defense attorneys:

When the facts favor your client, pound the facts.
When the law favors your client, pound the law.

When neither favors your client -- pound the table.

In our world, imho, there is less table-pounding and more filing one motion per court cycle to delay, delay, delay.

I don't think the public or the State will give up on this one.

jmho of course

 

[FrostedGlass]

I'm confused, who else would know these details? This information was not released to the public unless I somehow totally missed it. I don't even think the parents knew this type of detailed information.

I could be totally mistaken (happens often ), if so please link an approved source as I am curious now to figure this out.

Thanks

I'm sure you've seen many approved sources regarding the searchers who discovered the crime scene.

There are no official news sources for whether RL had his PCA and SW. Considering he had an atty for his DD charge, I couldn't imagine that he didn't have access to all of his documents.

I caught the sealing of the autopsy and copied it before they removed it from record. Since I was new to court cases, I didn't copy the case number and when I went back to get it, it was gone. Here's what I copied; it's a good as I can do until they unseal it:
******
On March 28, 2017, State of Indiana, by Prosecuting Attorney Robert T. Ives, filed a Petition to seal the autopsy reports concerning Abigail Williams and Liberty German.

The Court, being duly advised, FINDS as follows:
1) On February 13, 2017 Abigail Williams and Liberty German were killed just outside of Delphi in Carroll County, Indiana.
2) An investigation into these killings is ongoing.
3) No charges have been filed with connection to the killings.
4) The details related to the manner and mechanism of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German, if they remain confidential, make it easier for investigators to recognize a false confession as it is improbable for an innocent person to accurately describe the details of the deaths without personal knowledge.
5) Investigators are able to maintain a tactical advantage when speaking with a suspect if the manner and mechanism of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German are not made public.

The Court, being duly advised, ORDERS as follows: State of Indiana has demonstrated by a preponderance of the evidence that public access or dissemination of the information contained in Ind. Code 36-2-14-18(a) would create significant risks of harm to the criminal investigation of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German.

State of Indiana's Petition to Seal Autopsy Reports, filed March 28, 2017, is GRANTED. The Court ORDERS the Carroll County Coroner to PROHIBIT public inspection and copying the following information related to Ms. Abigail Williams or Ms. Liberty German:
1) The name, age, address, sex, and race of the deceased.
2) The address where the dead body was found, or if there is no address the location where the dead body was found and, if different, the address where the death occurred, or if there is no address the location where the death occurred.
3) The name of the agency to which the death was reported and the name of the person reporting the death.
4) The name of any public official or governmental employee present at the scene of the death and the name of the person certifying or pronouncing the death.
5) Information regarding an autopsy (requested or performed) limited to the date, the person who performed the autopsy, where the autopsy was performed, and a conclusion as to: a. the probable cause of death; b. the probable manner of death; and c. the probable mechanism of death.
6) The location to which the body was removed, the person determining the location to which the body was removed, and the authority under which the decision to remove the body was made.
7) The records required to be filed by a coroner under section 6 [IC 36-2-14-6] of this chapter and the verdict and the written report required under section 10 [IC 36-2-14-10] of this chapter. (Collectively the confidential autopsy information ) The confidential autopsy information shall remain confidential until further order of this Court. The Court shall enter further order if the Prosecuting Attorney notifies the Court that the investigation has concluded.
The Court shall enter further order if any person demonstrates that access to the confidential autopsy information would not create a significant risk to the criminal investigation of the deaths, AND the public interest will be served by allowing access to the confidential autopsy information, per form. (Copy to State, Coroner 3/28/2017,HNC)

 

[MistyWaters]

RSBM,

I would think that if RA confessed using details that only the killer would know, the defence would especially be claiming the admissios shouldn't be trusted due to his mental state (and any other myriad of reasons they can come up with); they definitely don't want any jury hearing him state things only the killer would know IMO.

Yes for sure the defence doesn’t want a jury hearing that a defendant confessed to their guilt. But IF at the same time he spoke to details only the killer would know, his present mental state doesn’t explain why he would have knowledge of that sort of information. However his mental state might explain why he’d basically confess (ie “I have to know…..” “yes, I did it”) to a crime he didn’t commit from the defence’s point of view. JMO

 

[Vern]

Yes for sure the defence doesn’t want a jury hearing that a defendant confessed to their guilt. But IF at the same time he spoke to details only the killer would know, his present mental state doesn’t explain why he would have knowledge of that sort of information.

"his present mental state" ... as alleged by his defence attorneys?

I consider this as them doing their job. At least an "ineffective counsel" appeal would never fly should he be convicted.

Oh, and being 'guilty' would explain why he'd know only details the killer could know regardless of mental state.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I believe the Judge will rule the ballistics evidence in and allow the 'experts' to argue the validity to the jury.

Maybe they recovered RA's DNA on the bullet?

The extracting pin and the ejector inside a firearm which are responsible for ejecting the spent shell casing from the gun’s chamber also create distinct impressions on the shell casing which are unique to a particular firearm. Same logic would apply to ejecting an unspent round.

It's a science that is still widely used in criminal cases today even if some discount it's credibility.

ALL MOO

 

[MistyWaters]

"his present mental state" ... as alleged by his defence attorneys?

I consider this as them doing their job. At least an "ineffective counsel" apeal would never fly should he be convicted.

Oh, and being 'guilty' would explain why he'd know only details the killer could know regardless of mental state.

If he was privy to details only a killer would know and that information wasn’t contained in the defence material he was given in jail to work with, I don’t think the defence could go on defending his innocence.

However we are merely speculating he confessed with specific details only the killer would know, but that wasn’t stated in news reports.

 

[girlhasnoname]

If RA confessed using details only the killer would know I don’t think the defence would be claiming the admissions shouldn’t be trusted due to his mental state.

RA is free to change his plea to Guilty and I‘d wonder why he didn’t do that if his confessions were sincere? But possibly his attorneys don’t want that to happen until they know the Prosecution’s evidence will stand up in court and represents a strong likelihood of conviction. So the confessions are RA’s means of acting out in a round about way against his attorneys? If so, will they drop him? Maybe interesting dynamics are at play here…. JMO

Could be possible with this Defendant. I don't buy his poor, feeble, addle minded display at all. I think RA is cunning and conniving.

ALL MOO