IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #165

[TL4S]

Page 6, para 3 of attached doc:

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23863509/richard-allen-motion-filed-42023.pdf

I trust LEs judgement that that is what they heard. LE tends to be quite familiar with P226s and the sound.

Yes, thanks for the link, I hadn't seen it cited either! Can someone again explain exactly what this means he did at the end of the bridge and how that would relate to the unspent round at the CS?

 

[TL4S]

I'm pleading ignorance again but I just can't help myself.

"the sound of a gun being cycled and one of the victims ‘mentioning a “gun.” This would have been done on the bridge. Does that mean that there was no cartridge in the gun at that time? We thought he might have done that to scare the girls. So why do that again to scare them down at the murder scene? I suspect they were terrified enough after the first time he did it.

It would make more sense to me if he tried to shoot one of them and something went wrong.

That's what I'm thinking too...

 

[FrostedGlass]

I’m not questioning your good ability to notice blank spaces at all. But wouldn’t you think RA’s defense team would’ve throughly scrutinized the proper completion of the warrant along with the form indicating items which were seized, since they had it in their possession even before this recent document release?

If the paperwork lacked clarity or indicated a serious oversight it was not mentioned in the Defence Team’s Motion to Suppress so to me that indicates they had no concern in the area of completion. JMO

Lol.. I can't take credit for "good ability," it was blatantly obvious. I'm sure his team has gone over it well. No one has said exactly what is wrong with the warrant but they feel something is. Maybe RA's atty, MS and Shay Hughes are all being vague for a reason?

They may not have to mention every reason at this time. And you could be right that it's not an area of concern for any of them.

(deleted the comment about a Franks hearing)

 

[MAHBOOBOO]

I'm no expert but this is what I think it means:

When you chamber a round it means you're drawing up a bullet into the chamber that was previously in the magazine. I think he did that at the bridge to scare the girls.

So for that bullet to end up on the ground down by the creek, I think he had to have tried to fire the gun and it jammed. Then he cleared the chamber by pulling back the slide to eject the bullet.

This happens frequently in pistols when dirt gets in the barrel. I don't see RA as the type to clean his gun and keep it in the clean place. He probably lays it around in drawers and throws it under his car seat frequently, resulting in the gun getting dirty and not firing.

Now why he didn't try to chamber another round.. that I don't know. Maybe he thought it wouldn't work, but it's more likely the girls ran and then... who knows.

 

[helpfulcharlie]

I'm no expert but this is what I think it means:

When you chamber a round it means you're drawing up a bullet into the chamber that was previously in the magazine. I think he did that at the bridge to scare the girls.

So for that bullet to end up on the ground down by the creek, I think he had to have tried to fire the gun and it jammed. Then he cleared the chamber by pulling back the slide to eject the bullet.

This happens frequently in pistols when dirt gets in the barrel. I don't see RA as the type to clean his gun and keep it in the clean place. He probably lays it around in drawers and throws it under his car seat frequently, resulting in the gun getting dirty and not firing.

Now why he didn't try to chamber another round.. that I don't know. Maybe he thought it wouldn't work, but it's more likely the girls ran and then... who knows.

Another possibility is that the cycling at the bridge was the only cycle, but a round was already chambered, and fell to the ground, he picked it up and pocketed it, and it fell out of his pocket at the crime scene unnoticed.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think as a part of becoming a resident of the jail, you probably have to sign in and sign a paper showing what rights you have lost in the process. taped phone calls is probably on the list.

And by the way, his lawyer was not arguing they were not allowed to tape/monitor them.. he was arguing that his client RA was mentally ill and gave the confessions under duress and they should be not used. BTW, ain't going to happen.

I agree and the mentally ill argument will be of little consequence if unsupported by the mental health records, results of which the defense team should know by now. It appears to me the Judge is actively facilitating the defence getting clarity on the matter of mental wellness (or not). Presently this case seems to have gone ominously quiet, can’t help but wonder if RA’s confessions have rendered a not guilty plea rather pointless moving forward …….

“On Thursday, the judge issued two orders. One required the state to release all of Allen's mental health records to his defense team.”

Judge may release sealed documents in Delphi murder case as early as next week

Richard Allen is charged with the murders of teen girls Abby Williams and Libby German.

www.wdrb.com

 

[raja]

Was the confession on the phone or on his tablet. Do you make phone calls on the tablet? Remember he destroyed his tablet after the confession.

 

[MistyWaters]

Was the confession on the phone or on his tablet. Do you make phone calls on the tablet? Remember he destroyed his tablet after the confession.

Yes if it’s set up accordingly, including the use of headphone, a tablet can make phone calls although the documents don’t spell out exactly how the phone call was made.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/29/us/delphi-murders-richard-allen/index.html

“On April 3, Allen called his wife, Kathy Allen, one document states. “In that phone call, Richard M. Allen admits several times that he killed Abby and Libby,” according to the document.

“Investigators had the phone call transcribed and the transcription confirms that Richard M. Allen admits that he committed the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German. He admits several times within the phone call that he committed the offenses as charged. His wife, Kathy Allen, ends the phone call abruptly,” the document went on to say……”

Just noticed, representing a more or less witty jab, the CNN writer goes on to add the following paragraph >>> (BBM)
“Allen’s attorneys previously said their client “has nothing to hide,” and they planned to make “a vigorous legal and factual challenge” to the prosecution’s claims.”

 

[Vern]

I'm no expert but this is what I think it means:

When you chamber a round it means you're drawing up a bullet into the chamber that was previously in the magazine. I think he did that at the bridge to scare the girls.

So for that bullet to end up on the ground down by the creek, I think he had to have tried to fire the gun and it jammed. Then he cleared the chamber by pulling back the slide to eject the bullet.

This happens frequently in pistols when dirt gets in the barrel. I don't see RA as the type to clean his gun and keep it in the clean place. He probably lays it around in drawers and throws it under his car seat frequently, resulting in the gun getting dirty and not firing.

Now why he didn't try to chamber another round.. that I don't know. Maybe he thought it wouldn't work, but it's more likely the girls ran and then... who knows.

Correct on the 1st bit: "When you chamber a round ... you are drawing a bullet into the chamber that was previously in the magazine."

He could have tried to fire it and it jammed as you point out, but IMO he would have picked up the cleared round rather than leave it at the crime scene. Anyone clearing a jam knows there's a round to reload after clearing, so he would not have 'missed' it.

We had a discission a couple days ago in the thread regarding possible scenarios as to how the crime-scene round went unnoticed by RA. There were a couple theories posited: he re-c.ocked the weapon having forgot he had already done so on the bridge, one of the girls struggled with him causing c.ocking action to recur, etc.

 

[Vern]

Another possibility is that the cycling at the bridge was the only cycle, but a round was already chambered, and fell to the ground, he picked it up and pocketed it, and it fell out of his pocket at the crime scene unnoticed.

That's certainly a viable possibility.

 

[TL4S]

I'm no expert but this is what I think it means:

When you chamber a round it means you're drawing up a bullet into the chamber that was previously in the magazine. I think he did that at the bridge to scare the girls.

So for that bullet to end up on the ground down by the creek, I think he had to have tried to fire the gun and it jammed. Then he cleared the chamber by pulling back the slide to eject the bullet.

This happens frequently in pistols when dirt gets in the barrel. I don't see RA as the type to clean his gun and keep it in the clean place. He probably lays it around in drawers and throws it under his car seat frequently, resulting in the gun getting dirty and not firing.

Now why he didn't try to chamber another round.. that I don't know. Maybe he thought it wouldn't work, but it's more likely the girls ran and then... who knows.

I'm hoping his firing pin was bad and left a unique impression on the primer of that unspent round that will match an impression on the .40 round found in the keepsake box in his bedroom. Jmo...

 

[Falling Down]

Correct on the 1st bit: "When you chamber a round ... you are drawing a bullet into the chamber that was previously in the magazine."

He could have tried to fire it and it jammed as you point out, but IMO he would have picked up the cleared round rather than leave it at the crime scene. Anyone clearing a jam knows there's a round to reload after clearing, so he would not have 'missed' it.

We had a discission a couple days ago in the thread regarding possible scenarios as to how the crime-scene round went unnoticed by RA. There were a couple theories posited: he re-c.ocked the weapon having forgot he had already done so on the bridge, one of the girls struggled with him causing c.ocking action to recur, etc.

I think this is the most likely scenario, he racked the slide at the bridge, they get to the CS, he instructs them to do something or another, they refuse so he decides to try and intimidate them by racking the slide back to load a round, forgetting he'd already done so, in the heat of the moment and the stress.

Great post.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

I'm hoping his firing pin was bad and left a unique impression on the primer of that unspent round that will match an impression on the .40 round found in the keepsake box in his bedroom. Jmo...

That would require a "force" applied to it, to leave the mark, like firing it.

My guess would be chamber markings are what ISP found on the unspent brass.

JMO

 

[TL4S]

That would require a "force" applied to it, to leave the mark, like firing it.

My guess would be chamber markings are what ISP found on the unspent brass.

JMO

Yes, my thought is maybe he chambered it on the bridge and tried to fire it at the CS, but the firing pin was bad, so he chambered another round, which ejected the unspent round. When he fired again, it didn't work either due to the firing pin issue. But he didn't chamber again, because he went to his knife, thus only one unspent round ejected and the other he kept as a souvenir in his keepsake box. It's just a random idea. I don't know how much I believe it, but it would be great if the firing pin left identifiable marks on both rounds. JMO. We maybe don't know about the primer marks.

 

[Megnut]

Curiously, in the BMorphew case, an unspent round was located on the floor near the marital bed. He himself copped to firing a weapon prior, and best guess is that he pocketed that round, after unchambering it (possibly to load a tranq dart, if it was a modified weapon). In any event, it suggests a struggle... and IMO it opens the door to SA.... do bullets fall out of pockets naturally? I'm thinking no. Will a struggle juggle one lose? .... or.... what happen to pocket contents when shorts come off? I hate the implications of that, in the other case and, as much, in this one. Clothes may have been left in the river intentionally. Mother Nature's laundromat...

If the gun jammed, that might've created the sliver of a moment to run, forcing his hand. Suddenly without fire power, reaching for his knife...

Ugly.

Jmo

 

[somequestions]

The circumstantial evidence against Richard Allen seems sort of overwhelming now. I think he gave them all the evidence because I cannot understand why if LE had DNA evidence they would not put that in the PCA before the unspent cartridge evidence. I think if LE had DNA evidence they should have put that in the PCA and left out the unspent cartridge evidence. My guess is there might not be any DNA evidence against Richard Allen.

The whole case is strange to me, mainly because of Liberty German's video.

I think Liberty German took the video of the person on the bridge because she could see the person had a gun.

The first scenario is that he started to walk back from the bridge and passed Abby and Libby on the trail. Then for some reason he turned around but waited at least 5 or 6 minutes before stepping onto the bridge based on the 2:05 photo of the entire bridge and the 2:07 photo of Abigail Williams. And like some have pointed out those times could be when the picture was uploaded, not taken. I suppose Liberty German was that observant that she noticed a gun and that is how she was able to start the video recording from so far away at 2:13pm where it would be a lot more difficult to spot a gun in the jacket. Did any of the witnesses say that saw an outline of a gun in the jacket of the man they passed on the trail?

Then there is the second scenario which makes even less sense. He never got off the bridge and walked across the bridge to the southeast side. When Abby and Libby came across and were getting close to where he was, he started going back across the bridge, but then turned around after going past them a ways down the bridge. But that does not make sense either if he already had 5 or 6 minutes to think about it. Why would he not just abduct them right there on the southeast side without the extra walking on the bridge to then turn around? They were already close to the end of the bridge. It was this extra time and walking past the girls on the bridge initially that alerted Liberty German to be able to have time and distance to get out her phone and record his approach.

I know the answer to my questions could be that maybe Liberty German took the video of the bridge guy for a different reason. I suppose we will never know Liberty German's reason for taking the video. We might also never know the reasons for the strange timing and distance on the video now that Richard Allen has confessed, but this was part of the reason I thought that maybe police had arrested the wrong man. Without the video, I would not have all these questions.

 

[MistyWaters]

The circumstantial evidence against Richard Allen seems sort of overwhelming now. I think he gave them all the evidence because I cannot understand why if LE had DNA evidence they would not put that in the PCA before the unspent cartridge evidence. I think if LE had DNA evidence they should have put that in the PCA and left out the unspent cartridge evidence. My guess is there might not be any DNA evidence against Richard Allen.

The whole case is strange to me, mainly because of Liberty German's video.

I think Liberty German took the video of the person on the bridge because she could see the person had a gun.

The first scenario is that he started to walk back from the bridge and passed Abby and Libby on the trail. Then for some reason he turned around but waited at least 5 or 6 minutes before stepping onto the bridge based on the 2:05 photo of the entire bridge and the 2:07 photo of Abigail Williams. And like some have pointed out those times could be when the picture was uploaded, not taken. I suppose Liberty German was that observant that she noticed a gun and that is how she was able to start the video recording from so far away at 2:13pm where it would be a lot more difficult to spot a gun in the jacket. Did any of the witnesses say that saw an outline of a gun in the jacket of the man they passed on the trail?

Then there is the second scenario which makes even less sense. He never got off the bridge and walked across the bridge to the southeast side. When Abby and Libby came across and were getting close to where he was, he started going back across the bridge, but then turned around after going past them a ways down the bridge. But that does not make sense either if he already had 5 or 6 minutes to think about it. Why would he not just abduct them right there on the southeast side without the extra walking on the bridge to then turn around? They were already close to the end of the bridge. It was this extra time and walking past the girls on the bridge initially that alerted Liberty German to be able to have time and distance to get out her phone and record his approach.

I know the answer to my questions could be that maybe Liberty German took the video of the bridge guy for a different reason. I suppose we will never know Liberty German's reason for taking the video. We might also never know the reasons for the strange timing and distance on the video now that Richard Allen has confessed, but this was part of the reason I thought that maybe police had arrested the wrong man. Without the video, I would not have all these questions.

On the topic of the video we recently learned from the Affidavit for the SW that the two girls were not together when Libby videod the suspect. If GH’s calculations are correct, Libby was appx 70 feet away when she captured the man on video walking behind Abby.

”……..The video (appx 43 seconds in length) depicts Abigail walking on the Monon High Bridge toward Liberty while a male subject wearing a dark jacket and jeans walks behind her.“

Source: page 1

https://www.wane.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/Delphi-Docs-2022.pdf

A couple reasons for the distance occurring between the two….Possibly Libby was taking more photos when the suspect approached Abby? Possibly Abby didn’t want to cross the full span of the bridge and Libby went ahead? Other ideas?

 

[FromGermany1]

Then there is the second scenario which makes even less sense. He never got off the bridge and walked across the bridge to the southeast side. When Abby and Libby came across and were getting close to where he was, he started going back across the bridge, but then turned around after going past them a ways down the bridge. But that does not make sense either if he already had 5 or 6 minutes to think about it. Why would he not just abduct them right there on the southeast side without the extra walking on the bridge to then turn around? They were already close to the end of the bridge. It was this extra time and walking past the girls on the bridge initially that alerted Liberty German to be able to have time and distance to get out her phone and record his approach.

bbm
What if BG first needed to get up close and personal to make sure, these girls were indeed the girls Abby and Libby, he was about to kidnap? So maybe, that's why he walked past them first and then turned around to be back on the bridge behind them? Now he knew, his victims would be the right ones, and he started his "main mission". Possible?? - If we would only know his motive ....!

 

[somequestions]

On the topic of the video we recently learned from the Affidavit for the SW that the two girls were not together when Libby videod the suspect. If GH’s calculations are correct, Libby was appx 70 feet away when she captured the man on video walking behind Abby.

”……..The video (appx 43 seconds in length) depicts Abigail walking on the Monon High Bridge toward Liberty while a male subject wearing a dark jacket and jeans walks behind her.“

Source: page 1

https://www.wane.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/Delphi-Docs-2022.pdf

A couple reasons for the distance occurring between the two….Possibly Libby was taking more photos when the suspect approached Abby? Possibly Abby didn’t want to cross the full span of the bridge and Libby went ahead? Other ideas?

If we assume for a second that the reason Liberty German took the video because she saw a gun, the question is when did she first see a gun?

This is what is strange. Was Libby that observant that if the suspect started walking back towards the bench on the trail, as her and Abby passed him, she noticed the gun in his jacket when others who passed the suspect did not? Then 5 or 6 minutes later when he turned around to go back to the bridge she started to videotape him from that far away because that is how she knew about the gun?

How could Richard Allen not have passed Abigail Williams and Liberty German on the trail?

If the killer was already on the southeast side of the bridge, maybe this abduction did not happen over the course of 5-10 minutes like I thought, but within a few minutes as this person came up onto the bridge, Libby clearly saw the gun in his jacket as he started to walk down the Monon High Bridge towards Abby. He passed Abby, but then realized no one was around so he turned around to follow Abby. Maybe even Abby saw the gun in his jacket too? The suspect did not take 5 or 6 minutes to think about it.

Maybe the first time Liberty German saw a gun was when the killer passed the girls on the end of the bridge because the killer came from that southeast side of the bridge? And if Liberty German did not see the gun in the jacket on the main trail as she was walking towards the Monon High Bridge with Abigail Williams, how could she spot it from 70 feet away?

 

[Vern]

Yes, my thought is maybe he chambered it on the bridge and tried to fire it at the CS, but the firing pin was bad, so he chambered another round, which ejected the unspent round. When he fired again, it didn't work either due to the firing pin issue. But he didn't chamber again, because he went to his knife, thus only one unspent round ejected and the other he kept as a souvenir in his keepsake box. It's just a random idea. I don't know how much I believe it, but it would be great if the firing pin left identifiable marks on both rounds. JMO. We maybe don't know about the primer marks.

The odds of this happening twice, especially in a row, are astronomical. That would be indicative of a faulty weapon and not a mere misfire or jam. They seized the weapon during the search so I suspect it is functionning properly and was not faulty.

I'm akin to go with Occam on this one ... he never intended to fire the weapon; it was his intended means of controlling his target. It was broad daylight in a place the public goes to (The Bridge) ... and anyone up on the trails would have heard any shots being fired. Knives can be silent. The "cutting instrument" was his intended means of causing death.

Cycling the round would have left identifiable markings on the round (and so would ejection of the casing had he actually fired the round off). Cycling of rounds through a weapon leaves unique and identifiable characterisitics. These identifiable & unique characteristics were used to convict Dianne Downs way back in the early 80s and they didn't even recover the gun in that case - just a cycled round that she left in her house where the marking matched those on the casings found in her car after she shot her children. They are not "new science" and Ballistic Experts can/will testify to them. They've already stated in the released documents that the round was cycled through his gun ... thus the markings are from cycling it through vice it misfiring.