IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #165

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I've wondered the same about the gun getting muddy while he tried to climb the north bank. I also wonder if he hit either girl with the gun. What was the sequence of events that led to him ejecting that round. It's perplexing.
Yes I'd just wondered there if the bullet could have ejected during the act of "pistol whipping"?
I don't really know anything about guns tbh, so I'm just seeking clarification etc.
 
@Vern If he chambered a round on the bridge, either the gun was empty or a cartridge was ejected in that area?

In the search warrant returns, I noticed there were only 3 boxes checked for "lab analysis." One was for the gun, one was for the cartridge in the keepsake box and one was for the carpet scrap from the trunk.

Do the checked boxes mean they were wanting an analysis on those items or that an analysis was performed?
Why was the cartridge in the box the only one that was checked for analysis and not the ones in the magazines?
 
What if RA's anger came from the day before, the Sunday, and had also to do with the upcoming Valentine's Day perhaps. What if he just had had a big problem within his marriage and wanted to show his wife (without her knowing), what he would be capable of, if she had hurt him mentally. What if he knew from his "conversation ring", that A+L were going to be found on the MHB trails and bridge on Monday noon/afternoon.What if the problem in his marriage was, that his wife found out about his perverse interest for teenagers? - What if the 3 signatures meant a distinct message to his wife, and she would have recognized it, if it only had been made public?

My thoughts for today.
 
He may have been very close to the end of it or off of it by that time. We just know from the released documents that he cycles the round (as heard in the video's audio track), one of the girls states that he has a gun and that he tells them down the hill. So definitely in the immediate vicinity of the bridge. I suspect that if we could see the video, we'd actually know the answer to your question though; the trial will tell no doubt.



I also note with the blue highlight that that LE states in this document, "the cycled ‘round matching that firearm was located within feet of Victim 2’s body." They do not call it a "misfired round" that was found within 2 feet of their bodies. Those with experience can tell the difference between a round that's merely 'cycled' and one that is actually 'misfired' as a misfired round would have additional markings from the firing pin etc. I think their specific choice of wording here actually tells us that the round was a "cycled round" and not a "misfired round" - they had years to have it analyzed by the pros prior to writing this document.

I also note that if it is identified that it is actually a misfired round at trial, , and I highly doubt it will be, ... that any good defence attorney worth their salt at a death penalty trial will be utilizing the above text where they've identified it as a "cycled round" as grounds to undermine the credibility of the prosecution ballistic expert. They are not the same things; they are different beasts altogether.

Edited to add link again (Page 6, para 3):
I don't want to misinform, by any means, and I'm certainly not a firearms expert by any stretch. I highly respect what you are saying about the "cycled" round wording, and that it is specifically NOT saying "misfired" round. However, I don't really know if "cycled" necessarily excludes a misfire. From the Global Forensic and Justice Center at Florida International University research center:

Module 09 :: Examination of Unfired Ammunition

Examinations of unfired ammunition, both unfired cartridges and shotshells, proceed in much the same way as for fired cartridge cases and shotshell cases. The obvious difference is the absence of chamber or breech face marks, and the possible presence of a light strike(s) from a firing pin. Identifications can still be made on extractor, ejector, and magazine marks. These marks are valid toolmark identifications. However, the significance of these unique associations is different.

The reasons for the cycling of ammunition through the action of a firearm (without firing) may include

  • a decision to remove a cartridge from the chamber as part of the normal unloading process,
  • an effort to clear a misfire,
 
Yes I'd just wondered there if the bullet could have ejected during the act of "pistol whipping"?
I don't really know anything about guns tbh, so I'm just seeking clarification etc.

imho, doubtful. Although I've obviously never hit anyone (or anything but a target) with a pistol, imho this would indicate a serious flaw/failure in the pistol? A firearm is a rather simple closed system, works in only one way.

@Vern , please chime in here.
 
Has RA ever fully or partially confessed, either to LE or to anyone else whom he knows ?

Also regarding the weapon discussion above, was the cod ever released for the girls ?
I keep thinking not, but I may be wrong.

I'm familiar with the case and have perused articles, etc.
For what it's worth , at this time I think LE have their man.
Only my opinion.

So sorry for innocent people in his wake that have been hurt, and of course most of all for the loved ones of Abby and Libby !
 
You know, it is striking to me that one of the juvenile witnesses said to another (right after passing him), "somebody's grumpy." That was in the recently released documents. To me, it proves that his demeanor was picked up on by the juveniles in the moment, and not just something they imagined in hindsight after they knew about the murders. So if they picked up on it, why might not have L and A if they passed him around the north end of the bridge? If he was sending off a "grumpy" vibe and then suddenly he's trekking across the bridge toward them, maybe after they already saw him get off the bridge on the other end, it would be strange. If L had noted a gun previously, maybe they'd be less apt to say, "gun" when he got to them. From the PCA, I got the impression they were startled by it, but that's only my interpretation.

JMO, but I do think we can see the impression of the gun in his pocket in the video. I don't think he had it holstered, nor was carrying it with a round in the chamber. I think he walked right up to them, pulled it out of his pocket, cycled it, and then it was on.
I think it is hard to pick up on a person's demeanor simply by passing them on a trail. However, I think you could pick that up from the description of their face.

Why did Liberty German take the video of the person on the bridge coming towards them from 70 feet away right before concealing her phone? I guess we will never know. The one thing we do know is that we only got to see the end of the visual video and we did not get to hear the end of the sound recording. If police had a closer image of the bridge guy they would have released that to the public.

Unless Liberty German has incredible eyesight or was very observant when she and Abby passed the killer on the trail section, there is no way she could see this person had a gun from 70 feet away since she had already pulled her phone out earlier when they were even further away.
 
I think it is hard to pick up on a person's demeanor simply by passing them on a trail. However, I think you could pick that up from the description of their face.

Why did Liberty German take the video of the person on the bridge coming towards them from 70 feet away right before concealing her phone? I guess we will never know. The one thing we do know is that we only got to see the end of the visual video and we did not get to hear the end of the sound recording. If police had a closer image of the bridge guy they would have released that to the public.

Unless Liberty German has incredible eyesight or was very observant when she and Abby passed the killer on the trail section, there is no way she could see this person had a gun from 70 feet away since she had already pulled her phone out earlier when they were even further away.
Good point -- they'd release more if...

That suggests to me that perhaps it did take creative editing to find a clip without the girls in it, sonething they either wanted to shield the public from or to encourage tips/BG to come forward to admit he was there..... without forcing the association.

JMO
 
I think this piece of evidence was one of his "mistakes" (DC at the 2019 press conference, "you made mistakes"). I'm wondering if in the course of going across the creek, the gun got wet and/or muddy...and at some point (maybe after the crime was over) he ejected the bullet from the chamber (the one that was racked on the bridge) so that he could drain the water and/or debris out of the chamber, and dry it off with something to prevent rust issues...or to quickly clean and rack a new cartridge in case someone found and confronted him before he made his escape (maybe not confident it would fire in the condition it was in)? Maybe he didn't see where the cartridge landed when he ejected it, and had to leave without it?

LE alleging that a witness saw the killer "muddy and bloody"...makes me wonder if one or both of the girls didn't attempt to fight back...and maybe the killer (and his gun) took a fall in the creek and/or in the mud/dirt trying to climb down or up one of the banks on either side of the creek?

JMO
That he might have dropped the mag and then attempted to clear mud from the chamber and slide due to getting the gun muddy while climbing that steep muddy bank and then failed to catch the unexpended cartridge? That's probably the best theory I've come across yet for why an unspent cartridge was at the scene.
 
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I think it is hard to pick up on a person's demeanor simply by passing them on a trail. However, I think you could pick that up from the description of their face.

Why did Liberty German take the video of the person on the bridge coming towards them from 70 feet away right before concealing her phone? I guess we will never know. The one thing we do know is that we only got to see the end of the visual video and we did not get to hear the end of the sound recording. If police had a closer image of the bridge guy they would have released that to the public.

Unless Liberty German has incredible eyesight or was very observant when she and Abby passed the killer on the trail section, there is no way she could see this person had a gun from 70 feet away since she had already pulled her phone out earlier when they were even further away.
And maybe Libby saw the gun after he had passed Abby and was headed to her. And when Le released the BG picture closeup why not included it with the faraway picture. I believe Gray Hughes was the one who placed Le's picture of BG at the place on the bridge that had the white spot. For all we know Le has more pictures that Libby took after the initial picture we saw of Abby on the bridge and that she took another as he came around Abby. JMO
 
And maybe Libby saw the gun after he had passed Abby and was headed to her. And when Le released the BG picture closeup why not included it with the faraway picture. I believe Gray Hughes was the one who placed Le's picture of BG at the place on the bridge that had the white spot. For all we know Le has more pictures that Libby took after the initial picture we saw of Abby on the bridge and that she took another as he came around Abby. JMO
Emph. mine.
Agreed !
I believe LE have a lot more photos/videos, maybe even audio, and some of it may be even more horrifying.
The suspect could have other crimes he's not yet been charged with ?
I'm just surprised he wasn't arrested sooner.
I know, building a solid case and all that .....
My .02 is that the brutal slaying of these innocent girls was not his first crime ?

Justice for Abby and Libby !!
 
Yes I'd just wondered there if the bullet could have ejected during the act of "pistol whipping"?
I don't really know anything about guns tbh, so I'm just seeking clarification etc.

Good question.

I'm of the opinion the recoil spring has enough force to keep the slide closed during a pistol whipping, however I don't have any online info to back that up.
 
But why go through all that trouble, and how did he know where the area on RL's property is located?

I sense a tremendous amount of premeditation in this case.

JMO
I agree with you, I think there was likely alot of premeditation as well.

If this were an unplanned crime done by a suddenly angry unstable individual, then I have trouble seeing the killer taking the time and energy to cross the creek with the victims. I think they would have been attacked on the southwest side of the creek, and because the killer would have been unprepared to take steps to mitigate leaving DNA...I think that kind of killer may have likely tried to dump the victims' bodies in the creek and get the heck out of the area quickly.

The "down the hill" clip is from around 2:13pm, and the muddy/bloody person was observed by a witness on 300 N at 3:56pm. If these are one in the same person...that's essentially an hour and forty-five minutes from the start of the crime to when the killer is leaving the area. Let's say 15 minutes to hike from the "down the hill" spot to where the victims were found...and another 15 minutes from there to 300 N (I can't see it taking any longer than that to hike those distances)...and you have the killer with the victims at the scene of the murder for at least an hour and fifteen minutes. To me, this was a killer that took their time with whatever they were doing...not someone acting spontaneously out of control.

JMO
 
I think it is hard to pick up on a person's demeanor simply by passing them on a trail. However, I think you could pick that up from the description of their face.

Why did Liberty German take the video of the person on the bridge coming towards them from 70 feet away right before concealing her phone? I guess we will never know. The one thing we do know is that we only got to see the end of the visual video and we did not get to hear the end of the sound recording. If police had a closer image of the bridge guy they would have released that to the public.

Unless Liberty German has incredible eyesight or was very observant when she and Abby passed the killer on the trail section, there is no way she could see this person had a gun from 70 feet away since she had already pulled her phone out earlier when they were even further away.

When I read the docs, I was thinking LG was perhaps several steps ahead of AW on the bridge when she started taking video of AW walking towards her with the man behind AW...I was thinking that it was perhaps AW who saw a gun (since she would have been closer in proximity to the man on the bridge in the video)...and perhaps the video captured audio of AW telling LG she saw a gun on him as AW got closer to LG?

JMO
 
I agree with you, I think there was likely alot of premeditation as well.

If this were an unplanned crime done by a suddenly angry unstable individual, then I have trouble seeing the killer taking the time and energy to cross the creek with the victims. I think they would have been attacked on the southwest side of the creek, and because the killer would have been unprepared to take steps to mitigate leaving DNA...I think that kind of killer may have likely tried to dump the victims' bodies in the creek and get the heck out of the area quickly.

The "down the hill" clip is from around 2:13pm, and the muddy/bloody person was observed by a witness on 300 N at 3:56pm. If these are one in the same person...that's essentially an hour and forty-five minutes from the start of the crime to when the killer is leaving the area. Let's say 15 minutes to hike from the "down the hill" spot to where the victims were found...and another 15 minutes from there to 300 N (I can't see it taking any longer than that to hike those distances)...and you have the killer with the victims at the scene of the murder for at least an hour and fifteen minutes. To me, this was a killer that took their time with whatever they were doing...not someone acting spontaneously out of control.

JMO

Agreed.

The 15 min. from CS to the CPS building is close in my opinion, about a half mile walk. From the SE end of the bridge to the CS is roughly 550 feet. They could have covered that in 4 or so, maybe 5, I'm guessing.

My guess would be the killer was at the CS for at least about 1 hour and 20 minutes.

JMO
 
This scenario is super scary to me. For teenage girls to set off a grown man with a comment like that, which enrages him to the point of following them across the bridge, ... then I feel like he must have already been about to come majorly unhinged.
.... I'm not saying it couldn't have happened that way, but if he was seriously set off into this terrible and strange operating mode by a comment or laughing, that's terrifying to me. Jmo.

(respecfully snipped for focus) I agree absolutely! But I'd add an opinion that it's difficult, and maybe even futile, for laypeople to try to make sense of BG's motivations and triggers preceeding the murders. Someone who would DO such an egregious and brutal thing is (in my guess) so far from normal human behaviors that normal people just can't get a good look into his brain.

I hope that's true, anyway. I don't think I want to be able to follow BG's thoughts and motivations. :-/ --ken
 
Emph. mine.
Agreed !
I believe LE have a lot more photos/videos, maybe even audio, and some of it may be even more horrifying.
The suspect could have other crimes he's not yet been charged with ?
I'm just surprised he wasn't arrested sooner.
I know, building a solid case and all that .....
My .02 is that the brutal slaying of these innocent girls was not his first crime ?

Justice for Abby and Libby !!
I can imagine quite well, that the unspent round in his keepsake box stems out of another of his crimes. Again the little cousins from Iowa come to mind, for example.
 
And maybe Libby saw the gun after he had passed Abby and was headed to her. And when Le released the BG picture closeup why not included it with the faraway picture. I believe Gray Hughes was the one who placed Le's picture of BG at the place on the bridge that had the white spot. For all we know Le has more pictures that Libby took after the initial picture we saw of Abby on the bridge and that she took another as he came around Abby. JMO
bbm

I remember to have seen a part of Abby's light brown/beige jacket sleeve, which later on had been removed from the photo.
 
And maybe Libby saw the gun after he had passed Abby and was headed to her. And when Le released the BG picture closeup why not included it with the faraway picture. I believe Gray Hughes was the one who placed Le's picture of BG at the place on the bridge that had the white spot. For all we know Le has more pictures that Libby took after the initial picture we saw of Abby on the bridge and that she took another as he came around Abby. JMO
Maybe there are more pictures of Abby and the trails, etc, but not anything that has to do with the bridge guy and the crime that is closer than 70 feet away.

The video we saw released to the public is the closest picture/video from 70 feet away. There are no other videos or pictures after the one Liberty German got from 70 feet away because the bridge guy is walking towards Liberty German in the video that was released to the public.

My point about why Liberty German may have taken the video of bridge guy was to show that based on the timing and distance there really are only 2 ways she could have seen the gun(if that was the reason she took the video):

A. When her and Abby passed the bridge guy on the trail as he was walking back towards the Mears parking lot area(before bridge guy then turned around to follow them back to the bridge).

or B. The bridge guy was waiting on the southeast side of the bridge and started going across the bridge past Abby who moved to her left as did Libby move to her right to take photos, but then the bridge guy turned around. Libby noticed it and got the video she did from 70 feet away because she saw a strange person with what looked like a gun in their jacket(in my opinion, windbreaker).

Whatever the scenario, this bridge guy was on some sort of a delay where he waited approximately 5-8 minutes(based on his bridge walking speed) before he approached Abigail Williams and Liberty German in order to abduct them. The video was taken at 2:13 pm, but the photos of the entire bridge and of Abby were taken at 2:05 and 2:07pm.

But Richard Allen confessed and there is ballistic toolmark evidence and eyewitness testimony, so the case is solved. I still wonder about the answers to the questions I have in this case.



 
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