IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #165

[Marzipan]

And how about Abby's shoes behind BG's left foot. Does no one see this?

I do see what looks a lot like a shoe/leg behind him, but it is impossible, I think, physically it can’t be that so I’ve just let go of thinking about it. Blurry video is like clouds. I’m sure I can also convince myself it’s a pet ferret. But I definitely see the thing you see.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

I think it’s pretty common for people to hike with a gun, and most men routinely carry a knife.

I agree! I think they may have even made a joke at his expense, if he was looking unhappy as mentioned by the juvenile witnesses then one of the girls could have quoted the movie Elf and said “aren’t you an angry little elf” or made a comment about him being “Grumpy” of the seven drawfs.

The entire situation just seems anger driven.

I think it's wild that a grown man would feel the need to take a gun and a knife on a public trail where teen girls are often left to roam unarmed and unsupervised.

 

[Gemmie]

And how about Abby's shoes behind BG's left foot. Does no one see this?

No. I don't see shoes and don't believe there are any behind his left foot.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I do see the white spots that look like they could be her shoes; they did have white soles. Also, that area beside his left thigh does appear to be blurred a bit more than the trees in the background. We should be able to capture that same picture in the video clip of him walking. Shouldn't we?

That picture has given me problems since the first time I saw it. Something about it has my brain convinced that image is not grounded. Every time I've ever looked at it, I've pulled the image of Abby on the bridge to compare and my brain says she's grounded; he's not. Then it's time to take off the tinfoil. lol..

But, then there's his strange right foot. His image is straight on but his right foot turns out so bad that we can see his entire shoe. Remember all those times we looked at his shoes and never did find something that matched?

What a case this is!

 

[FromGermany1]

I do see the white spots that look like they could be her shoes; they did have white soles. Also, that area beside his left thigh does appear to be blurred a bit more than the trees in the background. We should be able to capture that same picture in the video clip of him walking. Shouldn't we?

That picture has given me problems since the first time I saw it. Something about it has my brain convinced that image is not grounded. Every time I've ever looked at it, I've pulled the image of Abby on the bridge to compare and my brain says she's grounded; he's not. Then it's time to take off the tinfoil. lol..

But, then there's his strange right foot. His image is straight on but his right foot turns out so bad that we can see his entire shoe. Remember all those times we looked at his shoes and never did find something that matched?

What a case this is!

Ohhh, the shoes! My personally nightmare since 2017.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Ohhh, the shoes! My personally nightmare since 2017.

Shall I drag out the screen caps for old time's sake?

 

[MistyWaters]

And how about Abby's shoes behind BG's left foot. Does no one see this?

Impossible. The man is walking BEHIND Abigail so how could her shoes be behind his foot? The few facts we do know matter.

The video (appx 43 seconds in length) depicts Abigail walking on the Monon High Bridge toward Liberty while a male subject wearing a dark jacket and jeans walks behind her.“

Source: page 1

https://www.wane.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/Delphi-Docs-2022.pdf

 

[photographer4]

I do see what looks a lot like a shoe/leg behind him, but it is impossible, I think, physically it can’t be that so I’ve just let go of thinking about it. Blurry video is like clouds. I’m sure I can also convince myself it’s a pet ferret. But I definitely see the thing you see.

Ok, lemme see if I can help here at all... I believe that what people think *could* be Abby's shoe / jacket *behind* BG in this photo is actually just a residual effect of him walking and it blurring b/c I think they grabbed a screen grab from the video clip LG made as he approached. I've circled in red the blur effect that happened as a result of it being a screen grab from a video.

I used a green filter on this image to help add some clarity. My alternative idea is that the thing between his waist and leg (in red) could be a white (?) cloth of some sort that he had tucked into his jeans that sashayed as he walked.

The green area is what some people think is Abby's jacket as BG comes up behind them. I have no idea if that is it or not.

MOO. This is entirely my opinion, and its NOT fact!!

 

[photographer4]

I do see the white spots that look like they could be her shoes; they did have white soles. Also, that area beside his left thigh does appear to be blurred a bit more than the trees in the background. We should be able to capture that same picture in the video clip of him walking. Shouldn't we?

That picture has given me problems since the first time I saw it. Something about it has my brain convinced that image is not grounded. Every time I've ever looked at it, I've pulled the image of Abby on the bridge to compare and my brain says she's grounded; he's not. Then it's time to take off the tinfoil. lol..

But, then there's his strange right foot. His image is straight on but his right foot turns out so bad that we can see his entire shoe. Remember all those times we looked at his shoes and never did find something that matched?

What a case this is!

The shadows in the image bug me!! It IS like he is floating because of the lack of really clear dark shadows (they're there, but they're not had and they're quite light).

 

[somequestions]

I agree with you, I think there was likely alot of premeditation as well.

If this were an unplanned crime done by a suddenly angry unstable individual, then I have trouble seeing the killer taking the time and energy to cross the creek with the victims. I think they would have been attacked on the southwest side of the creek, and because the killer would have been unprepared to take steps to mitigate leaving DNA...I think that kind of killer may have likely tried to dump the victims' bodies in the creek and get the heck out of the area quickly.

The "down the hill" clip is from around 2:13pm, and the muddy/bloody person was observed by a witness on 300 N at 3:56pm. If these are one in the same person...that's essentially an hour and forty-five minutes from the start of the crime to when the killer is leaving the area. Let's say 15 minutes to hike from the "down the hill" spot to where the victims were found...and another 15 minutes from there to 300 N (I can't see it taking any longer than that to hike those distances)...and you have the killer with the victims at the scene of the murder for at least an hour and fifteen minutes. To me, this was a killer that took their time with whatever they were doing...not someone acting spontaneously out of control.

JMO

I do not understand how the crime can be premeditated. According to the pictures there is a 2:05pm picture Liberty German took of the entire bridge before her and Abby started to walk across it. No one is in that photo. There is the 2:07pm picture of Abigail Williams and Liberty German took with the rest of the bridge looking back at the trail. There is no one in the background of that photo that is on the bridge either.

Let's suppose for a second the crime was premeditated. Maybe the bridge guy waited to abduct Abigail Williams and Liberty German until they got to the other side of the bridge where he could then order them down the hill. If the person who abducted Abigail Williams and Liberty German is someone who is familiar with the Monon High Bridge, why would he not position himself to abduct them on the southeast side of the bridge?

The reason that scenario does not make sense is that if the crime was premeditated then the killer had time to think about it before even going to the trails. They also must have had some more time to think about it before being recorded on video from Liberty German's phone at 2:13pm. But the strangest thing is the movement. Why not just wait until both girls had made it across the bridge and then wait for them out of sight on the other side?

But I would agree that there seems to be about 5-8 minutes of premeditation due to the timing of the pictures and the video. Yet if the crime was committed by a local, as it appears to be, then wouldn't that person know from previous experience whether or not that area of the trail has people around, especially since they would already be on the other side of the creek.

It makes me wonder if the reason for the delayed timing is because there was no delay. Someone saw an opportunity 5-8 minutes after Liberty German took those pictures but without the knowledge of the timing of those pictures.

I guess this is all a moot discussion point now, but I still wonder about the timing of the abduction, and it has everything to do with the video. I understand we might never get the answer to the 5-8 minute delay.

 

[TL4S]

dbm

 

[Yemelyan]

I do not understand how the crime can be premeditated. According to the pictures there is a 2:05pm picture Liberty German took of the entire bridge before her and Abby started to walk across it. No one is in that photo. There is the 2:07pm picture of Abigail Williams and Liberty German took with the rest of the bridge looking back at the trail. There is no one in the background of that photo that is on the bridge either.

Let's suppose for a second the crime was premeditated. Maybe the bridge guy waited to abduct Abigail Williams and Liberty German until they got to the other side of the bridge where he could then order them down the hill. If the person who abducted Abigail Williams and Liberty German is someone who is familiar with the Monon High Bridge, why would he not position himself to abduct them on the southeast side of the bridge?

The reason that scenario does not make sense is that if the crime was premeditated then the killer had time to think about it before even going to the trails. They also must have had some more time to think about it before being recorded on video from Liberty German's phone at 2:13pm. But the strangest thing is the movement. Why not just wait until both girls had made it across the bridge and then wait for them out of sight on the other side?

But I would agree that there seems to be about 5-8 minutes of premeditation due to the timing of the pictures and the video. Yet if the crime was committed by a local, as it appears to be, then wouldn't that person know from previous experience whether or not that area of the trail has people around, especially since they would already be on the other side of the creek.

It makes me wonder if the reason for the delayed timing is because there was no delay. Someone saw an opportunity 5-8 minutes after Liberty German took those pictures but without the knowledge of the timing of those pictures.

I guess this is all a moot discussion point now, but I still wonder about the timing of the abduction, and it has everything to do with the video. I understand we might never get the answer to the 5-8 minute delay.

Please read the legal definition of premeditation here: What is premeditated and deliberate conduct?

Premeditation doesn't mean that someone planned out the crime perfectly and then carried it out perfectly. There is no legally prescribed minimum or maximum time necessary - premeditation can be accomplished in minutes or seconds (see the example at the link of someone simply deciding to pick up a hammer).

In the case of Libby and Abby, the victims were unpredictable as to walking speed, what they were doing, and even if they would cross the bridge all the way to the other side. So were any other potential victims that day. The killer may have hesitated in order to consider risk, or even the consequences of what he was about to do. None of that affects whether or not premeditation occurred. The fact that he didn't just run up and attack them right where they were but instead removed them to a separate location speaks to his taking the time to premeditate his actions IMO. I don't think the exact timing of the abduction compared to when he saw them is that significant in terms of analyzing what he's charged with doing.

 

[TL4S]

I do not understand how the crime can be premeditated. According to the pictures there is a 2:05pm picture Liberty German took of the entire bridge before her and Abby started to walk across it. No one is in that photo. There is the 2:07pm picture of Abigail Williams and Liberty German took with the rest of the bridge looking back at the trail. There is no one in the background of that photo that is on the bridge either.

Let's suppose for a second the crime was premeditated. Maybe the bridge guy waited to abduct Abigail Williams and Liberty German until they got to the other side of the bridge where he could then order them down the hill. If the person who abducted Abigail Williams and Liberty German is someone who is familiar with the Monon High Bridge, why would he not position himself to abduct them on the southeast side of the bridge?

The reason that scenario does not make sense is that if the crime was premeditated then the killer had time to think about it before even going to the trails. They also must have had some more time to think about it before being recorded on video from Liberty German's phone at 2:13pm. But the strangest thing is the movement. Why not just wait until both girls had made it across the bridge and then wait for them out of sight on the other side?

But I would agree that there seems to be about 5-8 minutes of premeditation due to the timing of the pictures and the video. Yet if the crime was committed by a local, as it appears to be, then wouldn't that person know from previous experience whether or not that area of the trail has people around, especially since they would already be on the other side of the creek.

It makes me wonder if the reason for the delayed timing is because there was no delay. Someone saw an opportunity 5-8 minutes after Liberty German took those pictures but without the knowledge of the timing of those pictures.

I guess this is all a moot discussion point now, but I still wonder about the timing of the abduction, and it has everything to do with the video. I understand we might never get the answer to the 5-8 minute delay.

This is old, and I cannot find the actual interview this statement came from, but LE said that in a recording, the girls talk about "stuff girls talk about." I remember when the interview (I think with JH) was first released, I got the impression that there were more recordings that afternoon than just the one 43 second BG video. JMO.

Police: Delphi murder victims spoke of man behind them in audio played for family

My thought is that the girls were recording themselves that day on the trail, even before the bridge, and maybe on the bridge, along with taking the photos. If the killer saw them coming down the trail towards the north end of the bridge (whether he targeted them or it was opportunistic), and they were clearly recording on a phone, he was not going to risk being captured on film. So I think he stayed out of view until L put her phone down after the 2:07 photo. When LE said she was a hero for having the presence of mind to record him, I think it's because she did it in a way as to not be obvious, which is probably why there isn't better footage. In the BG video, they were mentioning the man behind them, and where they could go, etc (per family interviews), so I don't feel like they were likely talking about "stuff girls talk about" during that 43 sec. video. JMO.

 

[TL4S]

So, as I mentioned before, there is a video interview with JH from 2017. It has disappeared from the MSM link, but GH preserved the video (thankfully!). I didn't realize this until today!

Here is the part about photos and videos. I'm convinced they were recording on the trail/bridge prior to the 43 sec BG video. JMO.

mm 41:49

AM (someone with her): One more question. For the image Libby captured on the phone, was there prior video of the girls together before that or if you think they felt danger from this person is that why she recorded that clip of him?

JH: Both. There were pictures and phot- they went out there to take pictures on the bridge, and there was pictures and video but it appears that, and this has been said before, that Liberty had enough senses to realize that something wasn't right and she started that video because she felt uncomfortable and both girls were uncomfortable. And I think that's why but they were out there taking pictures with the phone and video so...

 

[Ursamajr]

I do not understand how the crime can be premeditated. According to the pictures there is a 2:05pm picture Liberty German took of the entire bridge before her and Abby started to walk across it. No one is in that photo. There is the 2:07pm picture of Abigail Williams and Liberty German took with the rest of the bridge looking back at the trail. There is no one in the background of that photo that is on the bridge either.

For anyone that posts on instagram or facebook (or any other social media) have you ever taken a picture and uploaded it later? The post will have a timestamp that coincides with when you posted - *not* when you took the picture you include in your post. Snapchat can work the same way. You can take a pic and play with filters and post or you can upload from your camera roll. Since the 2:05 picture is in black and white, I assume that Libby took a few minutes and played with filters to make an aesthetically pleasing image to post. During this time, RA could have stepped on the bridge and started making his way across.

 

[Falling Down]

For anyone that posts on instagram or facebook (or any other social media) have you ever taken a picture and uploaded it later? The post will have a timestamp that coincides with when you posted - *not* when you took the picture you include in your post. Snapchat can work the same way. You can take a pic and play with filters and post or you can upload from your camera roll. Since the 2:05 picture is in black and white, I assume that Libby took a few minutes and played with filters to make an aesthetically pleasing image to post. During this time, RA could have stepped on the bridge and started making his way across.

Great points being made in this thread regarding the timeline.

I agree with the notion that pictures were taken, then after a brief period uploaded to SC. It fits with the timeline, and LE have not shared exactly what times the images were taken by the phone's camera.

By 2:07 the perp could have been close to or even on the bridge, for all we know.

JMO

 

[Ursamajr]

Great points being made in this thread regarding the timeline.

I agree with the notion that pictures were taken, then after a brief period uploaded to SC. It fits with the timeline, and LE have not shared exactly what times the images were taken by the phone's camera.

By 2:07 the perp could have been close to or even on the bridge, for all we know.

JMO

Additionally: I haven't used Snapchat lately but I did back in 2017 when Libby did. Back then you could take a pic within the app, edit, and take your time uploading it but it wouldn't get saved to your device unless you saved it from your feed or you had the "save to device" setting turned on in Snapchat settings - which was *not* the default setting. Snapchats were meant to be fleeting.

I don't know if LE would be able to tell the time of the actual photograph if Libby took the photo in Snapchat and didn't save to device or have the setting turned on. If she took the picture with the regular photo app then uploaded that to Snapchat then the time should be known.

My opinion: The photo was taken inside Snapchat because of the proportions. I remember black bars across the top and bottom of my pictures if I took the image outside of the Snapchat app and uploaded. That said, if she did that, she could have scaled the image up to fill the screen.

 

[somequestions]

So, as I mentioned before, there is a video interview with JH from 2017. It has disappeared from the MSM link, but GH preserved the video (thankfully!). I didn't realize this until today!

Here is the part about photos and videos. I'm convinced they were recording on the trail/bridge prior to the 43 sec BG video. JMO.

mm 41:49

AM (someone with her): One more question. For the image Libby captured on the phone, was there prior video of the girls together before that or if you think they felt danger from this person is that why she recorded that clip of him?

JH: Both. There were pictures and phot- they went out there to take pictures on the bridge, and there was pictures and video but it appears that, and this has been said before, that Liberty had enough senses to realize that something wasn't right and she started that video because she felt uncomfortable and both girls were uncomfortable. And I think that's why but they were out there taking pictures with the phone and video so...

It would be interesting to know if they were recording beforehand and whether or not Abby or Libby mentioned some strange person following them on the trail before they even got to the beginning of the Monon High Bridge, where Liberty German took a photo of the entire bridge at around 2:05 pm. We don't know.

I think that would at least come closer to establishing that their abductor came from the direction of the trails and saw them on the trail path before turning around to follow them back to the Monon High Bridge.

 

[somequestions]

Please read the legal definition of premeditation here: What is premeditated and deliberate conduct?

Premeditation doesn't mean that someone planned out the crime perfectly and then carried it out perfectly. There is no legally prescribed minimum or maximum time necessary - premeditation can be accomplished in minutes or seconds (see the example at the link of someone simply deciding to pick up a hammer).

In the case of Libby and Abby, the victims were unpredictable as to walking speed, what they were doing, and even if they would cross the bridge all the way to the other side. So were any other potential victims that day. The killer may have hesitated in order to consider risk, or even the consequences of what he was about to do. None of that affects whether or not premeditation occurred. The fact that he didn't just run up and attack them right where they were but instead removed them to a separate location speaks to his taking the time to premeditate his actions IMO. I don't think the exact timing of the abduction compared to when he saw them is that significant in terms of analyzing what he's charged with doing.

The point of my post was that I think there could be the possibility the crime was not premeditated and that someone else came up from the southeast side of the bridge walking past Liberty German and then Abigail Williams on the bridge before turning around on the bridge and coming back to abduct them. This person had no clue about the timestamps of the previous pictures taken by Liberty German on the bridge according to this theory.

I think this was a crime of opportunity. But if the definition of premeditation could be as little as a few seconds then it could be considered premeditated. My opinion is that the killer saw an opportunity and acted upon it if the right opportunity presented itself. If that person was Richard Allen, then it was Richard Allen. It could be he was looking out for others on the trail who might have seen him near Abby and Libby. I do not know what was going on in Richard Allen's mind or why he may have waited to carry about the abduction. This is speculation.

I was only stating my opinion that I thought it was strange he waited to carry out the abduction for 5-8 minutes according to the 2:05 and 2:07pm photos taken by Liberty German and the bridge guy video taken at 2:13pm. If I were a detective I would want to try to figure out why the delay.

 

[somequestions]

For anyone that posts on instagram or facebook (or any other social media) have you ever taken a picture and uploaded it later? The post will have a timestamp that coincides with when you posted - *not* when you took the picture you include in your post. Snapchat can work the same way. You can take a pic and play with filters and post or you can upload from your camera roll. Since the 2:05 picture is in black and white, I assume that Libby took a few minutes and played with filters to make an aesthetically pleasing image to post. During this time, RA could have stepped on the bridge and started making his way across.

I just do not think Liberty German was uploading photos to Snapchat at the same time as she would have been concerned about this strange person heading toward them. But I do not know why Liberty German started taking the video of the bridge guy in the first place. I suppose that is possible.

This is my opinion only.