IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #166

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I am so honestly confused by the popular reception to this brief

The odinism ties were repeatedly made by LE. FBI apparently concluded a likely odinist perpetrator (edit: mid read, that’s not confirmed). These briefs use the state’s discovery. It isn’t a wild theory by the defense, they are not making anything up(even if some interpretations have been specifically made!)

I don’t know if ra is or isn’t involved, there’s not enough information here to be persuaded either way beyond reasonable doubt imo. But why so many are dismissing this brief, which is outright accusing CCSO of shady tactics *with* receipts - their own receipts, because it sounds fantastical or like a conspiracy I just can’t understand. And I am as anti conspiracy theory as they come

Edit: of course I predict the prosecution will have to lean into how fantastical it all sounds to discredit this brief. Which will be interesting because it is their own investigation at play here

Jmo
For me the issue is that the brief is neither new nor original. It is reckless in naming individuals. It was dredged up from social media posts through the years. They even state that LE has investigated the Odinist angle and the persons named.

They could have ran with any number of credible SODDI theories, and done so in a professional manner.

Instead, they chose to present a tabloid-style work of fan fiction.
 
Gray Hughes is in Delphi this week. This video show how the bridge has changed over the last few years.
 
For me the issue is that the brief is neither new nor original. It is reckless in naming individuals. It was dredged up from social media posts through the years. They even state that LE has investigated the Odinist angle and the persons named.

They could have ran with any number of credible SODDI theories, and done so in a professional manner.

Instead, they chose to present a tabloid-style work of fan fiction.
I am flabbergasted at the unprofessional style of the writing and how their motion is presented. If you want to be taken seriously, be serious. The writing is incredibly off-putting. If they have a legit legal argument, make a legit legal argument that doesn't sound like a script to be read at open mic.

I am hopeful the judge will be as unimpressed as many of us are.

But, maybe the judge will point out the valid arguments and I for one will learn from that. I would welcome that.

I wish I knew the next step - does prosecution respond? The judge call a hearing?

jmo
 
I am flabbergasted at the unprofessional style of the writing and how their motion is presented. If you want to be taken seriously, be serious. The writing is incredibly off-putting. If they have a legit legal argument, make a legit legal argument that doesn't sound like a script to be read at open mic.

I am hopeful the judge will be as unimpressed as many of us are.

But, maybe the judge will point out the valid arguments and I for one will learn from that. I would welcome that.

I wish I knew the next step - does prosecution respond? The judge call a hearing?

jmo
I think the next step will be for the Judge to schedule the actual Franks Hearing. IDK if the Prosecution will respond by Motion in general or will wait and argue their response in front of the Judge.

I do feel confident the State won't respond publicly in detail to the 136 pages of garbage submitted by the Defense.

MOO
 
Ok, I read the whole thing and did try and catch up on comments here but probably missed some so I apologize in advance if I repeat points that were already made. I know quite a bit about the Vinlanders, have studied their group and its affiliates for years, and before I go into detail for the lengthy post: The chance of this being an organized ritual carried out in broad daylight by a Vinlander chapter is zero to none. No way.

The following is why:

Individual Vinlander members have been responsible for murdering other white people, including a white woman who was walking with a Black man on a date. But acts of arbitrary violence by more than one member have historically been against people in the communities they target, usually Black people or other people of color. An individual Vinlander sexually assaulting a white child, even murdering a white child wouldn't be all that surprising. Their ranks, like so many other white supremicist groups, are filled with abusers of every flavor. But their goal is to organize, recruit, build numbers, and further their ideology. Molesting, let alone murdering, white children isn't going to help further those goals, especially when their stated mission is to "stop eradication" of the white race.

Could an individual Vinlander - or more likely someone with similar ideology who spends a lot of time in the online spaces that these groups congregate in and post propaganda to- have carried out these crimes and then marked the scene with iconography associated with white supremicist groups? Absolutely. Could RA have lurked in some of these spaces? It's possible. For every card-carrying member of these groups there's a wide online audience that lurks and absorbs their content. Similar groups on Telegram or Gab might only have 100 actual vetted members but 3,000-5,000 subscribers to their channels.

The iconography that the defense claims was placed on or around the girls bodies is so prevalent on Gab that it's inescapable. "Alt-right" and fascist members often use these symbols in their profile photos and page headers without actually holding membership in heathen/pagan/Odinist neo-nazi groups.

I did also want to point out that a few things are being conflated- the Vinlanders are racist Odinists. Though many (possibly most at this point?) are, not all Odinists are racist. Likewise, some heathen nazis like Vinlanders are church members of the Asatru Folk Assembly, but not all are. And to further clarify, not all Asatru religious groups are racist. Unfortunately the organized arm of the religion has largely been taken over by White Supremicists, but there are long-established Asatru groups that have repeatedly denounced and disavowed the "Folkish" nazi sectors that have sprung up.

Finally- a note on the sacrifice angle. Yes many groups similar to the Vinlanders have violent, disturbing bonding rituals that often include animal sacrifice- usually goats. This is no secret, the groups use imagery from these events in their propaganda videos and still images, and members of slightly more extreme nazi groups (like the Base and Attomwaffen) have seen members sent to jail on animal cruelty charges based on these rituals which should give some indication of the depth of horror they entail. But animal sacrifice, or ritual violence against other human beings who they've repeatedly dehumanized is one thing. Ritual sacrifice of two young white girls by the Vinlanders? Absolutely not.

The sleuthers, or anyone, who submit tips typically do not hear back though. LE can’t tell them what came of any follow-up to protect theelinvestigation. Yes, we are all tired of hearing that but at times we also see why it’s often for the best. Frustrating for those who submit tips, I’m sure.

Now I realize the defense is going further and saying they know, based on discovery, the tips weren’t given enough attention. Or not shared enough or whatever. I hope the prosecutors can respond.

But for heavens sake, this is really too much. I’m thinking if Danny Heinrich hadn’t confessed to Jacob Wetterling’s abduction and murder, defense lawyers like these could have put up similar smoke screens since there were rumors of satanist cults and it was around Halloween.

In Delphi, they wanted a good SODDI defense, they had a gazillion options with all of the suspects we’ve all heard about, but they went with the most titillating option possible, presented in a true crime writing style. It’s just cru

You know, I am still not sure it is RA. Remember this?


“In his order, Diener said he "has determined that the particular circumstances within the underlying case warrant recusal and dictate that a special judge be appointed in this case."

It is not clear what the circumstances are that the judge referenced, but in previous emails and court documents – he has cited safety concerns and that he and his staff have been overwhelmed by the public attention and requests for information.”

So what’s so particular about an <modsnip - no link to source> CVS clerk killing two girls? Where is the level of safety concern? Why the need to seal the case?

Much as I don’t believe in ritual sacrifices, maybe the tiny local judge was afraid of some local group?
BINGO
 
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Oh, but they DID say it.
They mention his name a whopping 425 times in the document.

And I hope he sues them. I wonder if they can be disbarred? (jmo)

View attachment 448425
If I were BH I'd be hiring an attorney and suing the you know what out of the Defense.

If what they are stating here were true, don't you think LE, ISP, FBI (seasoned law enforcement professionals) would have made the same connection?

Ugh, it just makes me sick....all of it.

#Justice4Abby&Libby

JMO
 
I don't think the Defense is actually saying BH did this horrible deed. IMO they are speculating that 2 (non-desirable) Odin wannabes did this in order to join the group. BH was the person they needed to please and also, possibly, the person who knew the girls would be on the bridge that day.

Yes, they also mention the subsequent falling out between Holder and Westfall but imo that's just throwing spaghetti at the wall.

BH's Facebook kinda creeps me out with all his SHAVING WITH A STRAIGHT EDGE posts..
And BH has been called The Charles Manson of the group...
 
I am flabbergasted at the unprofessional style of the writing and how their motion is presented. If you want to be taken seriously, be serious. The writing is incredibly off-putting. If they have a legit legal argument, make a legit legal argument that doesn't sound like a script to be read at open mic.

I am hopeful the judge will be as unimpressed as many of us are.

But, maybe the judge will point out the valid arguments and I for one will learn from that. I would welcome that.

I wish I knew the next step - does prosecution respond? The judge call a hearing?

jmo
^^^This. The entire document is juvenile, irreverent and almost cavalier.
 
I am running behind on threads so this might have already been mentioned. But IMO the guards with Odinist leanings might be upset that RA murdered two girls and then staged the crime scene to look like a Odinist ritual.
How would he accomplish this if he had no affiliation with the Odinist group?

2. He told his lawyers the guards are odins. How would he know this if he had no knowledge of the Odins?
 
Taking his confessions w/a grain of salt unless he disclosed something solid. Need something of substance.... only the killer would know. moo
According to RA lawyers - a guy for. The odinites DID say something only someone who was there would know: that Abby was left with horns on her head. This guy said he was there. How would he have known this fact about the “horns” (stick arrangement) if he weren’t there or hadn’t heard it from someone who was there???
 
This. And I keep thinking about the “twist” that was referenced. This is part of an interview that has always bothered me. Now more than ever. JMO

Michael Stroup introduces himself to Sheriff Leazenby at the very beginning and @ 9:00 Leazenby says:

“This one’s just – it’s got a whole new – it’s got a twist to it that even I as a 30 year veteran have never seen.”

Prosecutor Ives said in the Scene of the Crime podcast (Episode 3):

“There is a lot of crime scene evidence. Some of it is somewhat odd. ... There is a lot of *unique facts there. Honestly, I’m shocked, and I promise you, police are shocked that it wasn’t solved in a day or two. The crime scene was physically strange, but that’s for the State Police to decide what to release."

* unique – the only one of its kind, unlike anything else.

I think it‘s quite possible that Ives may have been referring to the signatures.

Having audio and video were no doubt two of the things leading LE to believe that the case would be wrapped up quickly, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s something else, apart from DNA.

It's also possible that the “twist” was either something about the bodies or perhaps something found at the crime scene, but unfortunately, once again, all we can do is speculate.
When reading a mystery novel, or taking in a film that is said to have a twist, it usually means something unpredictable and or shocking has taken place in the plot. So what is it here? Did the Odins leave a bullet to frame someone who turned out to be RA? Did someone frame the Odins?? There’s something we are still unaware of I think.
 
How would he accomplish this if he had no affiliation with the Odinist group?

2. He told his lawyers the guards are odins. How would he know this if he had no knowledge of the Odins?
If the CS was stage as this memorandum describes, then I would think the RA did some research online or had exposure through fiction of true crime type media.
 
When reading a mystery novel, or taking in a film that is said to have a twist, it usually means something unpredictable and or shocking has taken place in the plot. So what is it here? Did the Odins leave a bullet to frame someone who turned out to be RA? Did someone frame the Odins?? There’s something we are still unaware of I think.
I think what’s missing is a motive by RA. Defense’s document solves that and provides a motive - but for different suspects. By design.

Prosecution doesn’t need to prove a motive for conviction, but it sure helps for a jury to make the connection.

They need to prove RA is BG and that he is responsible for steering the girls to their murders. I do hope a motive will be presented into evidence at trial, but it isn’t required.
 
We know the creek depth varied from waist deep to pretty shallow but we have no evidence of where they crossed or if they even did cross.

Regarding the creek depth, here's the memorandum footnote, pg 33. I want to clarify that the memorandum I was working from was pulled down sometime yesterday. The one I'm working from now has a link to the waterdata site but it doesn't work for me. I've added a working link so people can see it:

24 Find attached exhibit 26 which is the U.S. Geological survey depth rating of Deer Creek near Delphi Indiana taken from a measuring station near the crime scene on February 13, 2017, at 2:15 pm. This document can be found on the following link:
Kind of busy, what was the depth that day? TIA. IIRC, back when the murders fi happened, someone checked that website and found the water wasn’t too deep to cross.
 
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