IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #168

[O.Incandenza]

I'm wondering if the lawyer was presented with possible disbarment? Would that be a punishment for something like this? IDK. When someone's livelihood is on the line, quick decisions can happen. Speculation only.

jmo

I doubt it.

Plus, I don't know how abruptly withdrawing from representation could possibly help that. If anything it would make it worse. They have a duty to represent their client, and abruptly withdrawing in the middle of evidence motions is kind of sketchy.

My purely speculative guess is that they are just overwhelmed by the case. Even leaving aside the content, the Franks memo was bizarre as a legal document. It neglected to lay out the applicable legal standards, and that doesn't seem to have been a conscious decision given the supplemental memo they filed later. Combine that with the leaks and it seems like a defense team that was struggling with the scope & pressure of this case.

Edited to add: also, a judge can't disbar a lawyer.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Since the defense was court appointed and working under the state just like the prosecution, does anyone know if they share an office space/building? Or do they work from different spaces?

They do not share an office or a building.
The defense attorneys are in private practice and were drafted by the state to represent RA when it was determined RA could not pay for one himself.

 

[sunshineray]

To me it shows the judges incompetence. She should have made the clerk hold all filings for her review prior to publication especially after issuing a gag order. She is in over her head as much as the prosecutor and LE is.

If the detective lied or mislead in the SWA and they don't throw it out, the fix is in. If LE can't follow the law and rules, then they can't expect the public to be able to either. I believe they rushed to make an arrest prior to the election. What was the hurry? RA wasn't going anywhere. He owned a house, had a job and was established in the community. I also think the unspent round analysis is hocus pocus and junk science. IMO, they are a long way from proving beyond a reasonable doubt that RA committed this crime especially if the courts act with ethics and integrity instead of being in bed with the state.

I tend to agree with you that the judge should have had a once burnt, twice shy attitude in place and reviewing everything the defense was planning on filing.

The other "ifs" you mention are just that right now, in my mind. <modsnip>. AJMO

 

[O.Incandenza]

Is it possible they were given the option to withdraw or be withdrawn? Like “we will allow you to resign to save face”? Idk if that is even legal, just trying to stop my head from spinning.

I doubt it.

If the judge wanted them removed from the case, then I think she would have done it publicly. Threatening an attorney with something privately in order to get them to 'voluntarily' withdraw would be pretty unethical.

Moreover, it would be really strange to call a public hearing, approve cameras in the courtroom, make it open to the news media, have the victims' and defendant's family come, etc if her intention was just to force the defense counsel to withdraw beforehand.

 

[MistyWaters]

I tend to agree with you that the judge should have had a once burnt, twice shy attitude in place and reviewing everything the defense was planning on filing.

The other "ifs" you mention are just that right now, in my mind. <modsnip> AJMO

The memo was filed online at 2:07am. I think it’s a safe bet that the media was advised of it and downloaded a copy long before any court clerks arrived at work the next morning.

 

[iamshadow21]

Well, whatever the reason, it's probably best for RA to get a new team at this point. This one has been catastrophic for him.

As for the departing team... well, I don't know about anyone else, but I doubt I'd put my trust in a firm where someone can just walk in, riffle through case files unchallenged, have plenty of time to find what they're looking for, take photos of it all on their phone, and leave unchallenged without anyone raising an eyebrow. I've worked in supermarkets, and once I no longer became an employee, I wouldn't have been able to go to the break room unchallenged! One would hope a law office had greater safeguards!

MOO

 

[schooling]

I predicted BK's attorneys would do this sooner or later in the Idaho case. These attorneys held on after the confessions, so I figured they weren't going anywhere.

Sometimes its as simple as your client making it literally impossible for you to defend them.

Ethical concerns, lack of cooperation from your client, misrepresentation or fraud by said client, philosophical differences. All can be presented as legitimate reasons to withdraw from a case. Or it could be as simple as client consent.

If any of those things are going to prevent you from presenting the best defense possible with 100% effort. And there's nothing that can be done about the way you feel - then it's in the best interest of all parties involved.

All speculation of course. But again, the confessions tells me I"m probably not too far from the truth.

MOO

 

[sunshineray]

The memo was filed online at 2:07am. I think it’s a safe bet that the media was advised of it and downloaded a copy long before any court clerks arrived at work the next morning.

I don't understand, who recieved it to file it at that wee hour of the morning? To file a motion don't you have have it stamped and dated by the court clerk?

 

[mrjitty]

I doubt it.

If the judge wanted them removed from the case, then I think she would have done it publicly. Threatening an attorney with something privately in order to get them to 'voluntarily' withdraw would be pretty unethical.

Moreover, it would be really strange to call a public hearing, approve cameras in the courtroom, make it open to the news media, have the victims' and defendant's family come, etc if her intention was just to force the defense counsel to withdraw beforehand.

Agreed

It is really strange they withdrew apparently in chambers and not in court??

 

[Dhighsmith]

Maybe it’s just me but I’m doubting the new Defense Counsel will actually seek advice from Allen’s former defense team as the Judge stated they’ve offered to cooperate.

 

[mickey2942]

They do not share an office or a building.
The defense attorneys are in private practice and were drafted by the state to represent RA when it was determined RA could not pay for one himself.

Yes, I can see how a case of this scope would overwhelm a small office. They probably want a plea, and move on. No plea, they don't want any part of it.

 

[MistyWaters]

Murder Sheet

The Murder Sheet is a weekly true crime podcast hosted by journalist Áine Cain and attorney Kevin Greenlee. We take a journalistic approach to covefing true crime. We have broken national news on major cases, like the Delphi murders and the Burger Chef murders. We also cover plenty of other...

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Latest MS
Defense attorneys Andrew Baldwin and Bradley Rozzi are no longer representing Richard Allen in the Delphi murders case.This episode of The Murder Sheet will cover today's three-minute hearing, this morning's last minute attempt to save the defense by attorney David Hennessy, and our thoughts on what this means for the future of the case.

If the ads offend anyone, know that you can skip them by clicking the skip button on the progress bar at the top of the screen.

Some points mentioned, pardon my rough scribing -
- not only the serious leak of crime scene photos but there was information leaked too. This involved future defence strategy including who was next on the list that the defence was going to accuse of being an Odinist.
- in Hennessy’s brief on behalf of a the defence never denied nor contested involvement in the leak, only defended themselves ie betrayed, snookered.
- at the time the brief was filed the plan was for the defence to fight vigorously to remain as RA’s counsel.
- later Baldwin and Hennessy, Rozzi went into the Judge‘s chambers.
- Greenlee is very sympathetic with Baldwin’s situation, says noticing him over the past year it’s obvious he truly cares about RA and his wife.
- Cain says since the Judge has to place a protection order on the memo, then the leak comes shortly thereafter, that’s very, very serious.
- Mclelland said he was prepared for a hearing regarding the leak and investigation into it and had brought witnesses. So happens Doug Carter and Jerry Holeman and various LE from Carroll County were all in attendance.
- Rozzi appeared to usher RAs wife and mother out of the courtroom prior to the announcement of the defence withdrawal. Baldwin didn’t show.
- talked about conspiracy theories that are floating around, points out Hennessy didn’t suggest anything like that, the actions leading to the leak were acknowledged. The leaker was Baldwin’s longtime friend but someone who shouldn’t have been trusted.
- Just Baldwin leaving may not have been possible since the two were working as a partnership.
- Baldwin and Rozzi are still under a gag order so they can’t tell their side of the story.
- raised one possibility for withdrawal, if the attorneys would be facing sanctions, cameras broadcasting it in the courtroom resulting in embarrassment and humiliation.

 

[MistyWaters]

I don't understand, who recieved it to file it at that wee hour of the morning? To file a motion don't you have have it stamped and dated by the court clerk?

No there’s an online system, don’t recall what it’s called though. That’s why there’s was a typed filing acknowledgement as opposed to a manually inked stamp.

 

[sunshineray]

No there’s an online system, don’t recall what it’s called though. That’s why there’s was a typed filing acknowledgement as opposed to a manually inked stamp.

Wow, well that just begs to be used in highjacking the legal system. So basically AI is publishing motions/filings before a human eyes even determine if it's information under seal by the court? That's insane and I wonder why the defense wasn't called on the carpet for that memorandum.

Thanks for that info

 

[Detective Willy]

Everything points to RA being 100% guilty, most importantly the 5 or 6 confessions.

I am wondering if RA woke up that morning looking to kill a person(s) on the trails, or if it this had been planned for a long time with previous "dry runs" and he changed his mind at the last minute?

Surely there would be some digital history on his electrical devices showing his twisted mind or murderous thoughts? Either on his work or home computers or on his personal phone?

Has he committed other serious crimes before that will be linked to him in the future, or did he just snap that day?

 

[Emma Peel]

Agreed

It is really strange they withdrew apparently in chambers and not in court??

IMO...
It was either that or argue in front of TV cameras.
The Prosecutor would have come w/ LE investigator information/reports/testimony and perhaps that info challenged Baldwin's papers on the topic.

One way to avoid that argument in front of TV cameras might be to orally resign in chambers.
What happens in chambers stays in chambers.

just a guess...

maybe Rozzi's WRITTEN withdrawal to the Court will show up on the Court Docket.

 

[MistyWaters]

Wow, well that just begs to be used in highjacking the legal system. So basically AI is publishing motions/filings before a human eyes even determine if it's information under seal by the court? That's insane and I wonder why the defense wasn't called on the carpet for that memorandum.

Thanks for that info

Defence attorneys are professionals and shouldn’t have to be babysat. Something went sideways in this case and I don’t think we know the full story yet, if we ever will.

I know this sounds kind of crazy but from time to time I’ve wondered if they were even involved in the memo that was filed. The writing style was clearly not up to the typical standard of legalese. Now that we know the office security was lax or nonexistent nothing would really surprise me.

 

[gitana1]

Hi @gitana1 Here's a quick Cliffs Note version of what's been happening lately...

RA has had several psychological and health evals at his current holding facility which is a prison rather than a jail. He is guarded 24/7 because of a suicide watch, because of claims he was going to hurt himself when he got there. He was doing fine by all accounts from Nov until April after a big Discovery dump by the State, he confessed to his wife and mother that he killed Abby & Libby at least 5 times on a recorded phone line. He went berserk and threw his tablet and started literally eating the paper documents. He refused to eat, lost a bunch of weight, etc.

The Defense asked for a transfer to a closer jail because of the inhumane treatment (and it being closer for them), but the Judge denied it after the hearing, saying she found no evidence of that, and in fact he was being treated better than most of the prisoners there. Albeit, he is a Defendant rather than a prisoner.

The Defense is saying that RA is being 'tortured, and treated like a POW' etc., you know the typical Defense rhetoric. He only made those confessions to his wife and mother under extreme mental duress yada, yada. They have a Franks Motion coming up and the Defense is trying to get the search warrants squashed.

I was curious if the Defense is using a 'mental duress' and poor treatment as a defense to his phone confessions and a transfer, would the State then be entitled to the mental and physical evaluations done during the time he has been held there. Nov 22 - Present?

Also the Defense filed a 136 page Memorandum in response to the Franks Motion, which described in detail the Crime Scene and other who they suspected might be involved in the murders, even though there was a gag order. It got posted to the Court website at 2:08 am and caca has hit the fan over that. They suggested a Pagan ritualistic sacrifice. Here's the link, it's the most bizarre and unprofessional thing I've ever seen.

https://timothycharlesholmseth.com/...Memorandum-in-Support-of-Motionpdf-delphi.pdf

MOO

I look forward to reading that mess!

I know that in civil litigation, when someone makes a claim about emotional distress, their medical records are subject to discovery, where before, they would not be.

I’m actually not sure if the principle applies in criminal law as well in this type of situation. I note that when someone makes a claim of not being competent or being insane at the time of the crime, it appears the state is entitled to have an expert evaluate the defendant. However, records of previous mental health issues would have to be discoverable in order for the state to be able to explore the merits of an insanity defense.

But in this situation, I believe that the defense would bear the burden of proving he made those statements due to extreme distress. So they’d have to produce the jail, psych records. Just stating he is distressed isn’t going to cut it.

 

[gitana1]

I am not one to jump on conspiracy theories at all, but I do believe we will discover something else is going on. The sudden withdrawal, paired with the alleged suicide of one involved in the leaking, makes me suspicious, I just can't speculate without sounding like a lunatic.

Wait. What in earth happened? So I got that there was a leak that appeared to have come from a defense associate. Who killed themself?

Lots or stuff going on in this case! I think the defense and the defendant were probably mulling over a withdrawal. I don’t put it past the judge to encourage it. If his own attorneys messed up this badly, he could have grounds for ineffective assistance of counsel, before the trial even started.

But my sense was that the leak was intentional and meant to poison potential jurors.

 

[Falling Down]

Everything points to RA being 100% guilty, most importantly the 5 or 6 confessions.

I am wondering if RA woke up that morning looking to kill a person(s) on the trails, or if it this had been planned for a long time with previous "dry runs" and he changed his mind at the last minute?

Surely there would be some digital history on his electrical devices showing his twisted mind or murderous thoughts? Either on his work or home computers or on his personal phone?

Has he committed other serious crimes before that will be linked to him in the future, or did he just snap that day?

I'm of the opinion he had been there many times before, and he probably did some dry runs. Whether he backed out of actually abducting folks is anyone's guess.

I'd venture to guess digital evidence puts him there in the bridge area many times before Feb. 13th, 2017.

JMO