IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #169

[MistyWaters]

Not everything I post is up for debate.
I'm not holding anything against the court.
I'm only trying to learn where I have to go to see what I am entitled to see as an interested party.

If I find mycase is a fairly inaccurate record of the filings, then I'll have to re-consider all the hours I spend updating our cases.

From the link I posted:
• A CCS entry is never amended, corrected, or deleted once made. It may be amended only by another corrective CCS entry. Some courts, with written approval of the Office of Judicial Administration, post CCS entries on the Internet and it is especially important the previously created record in a case does not change from one day to the next.

Sorry I don’t want it to appear as if I’m debating. I’m just trying to understand what you see to be an issue with mycase and why it would be considered inaccurate, even if it’s not always precisely up to date or if we can’t see sealed filings.

To your point about “amended, corrected or deleted orders” wouldn’t it be reasonable to conclude the Order Issued on 10/27/2023 serves as the “corrective CCS entry” as it provides the rational as to why certain filings are being deleted?

10/27/2023	Order Issued Court notes filings by former Attorney Rozzi on October 25 and 26, 2023, and takes no action. Attorney Rozzi withdrew from this matter on October 19, 2023, and is no longer counsel of record. These filings, therefore, are ordered stricken from the record. Clerk of the Court ordered to remove the pleadings from the electronic case file and the Chronological Case Summary as being filed in error. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Allen, Richard M. Order Signed: 10/27/2023

 

[MistyWaters]

It’s obvious the Defence knew the nature of the hearing because they filed the affidavit from additional counsel arguing to be kept on. Ditto the state had witnesses.

That part is hard to believe

I do wonder if we are going to find there is no transcript of the discussions in chambers.

Do you expect if there’s a transcript it will be publicly released? My own opinion, I really doubt it, it would be argued to be prejudicial to RA since it reflects negatively on his D. This early phase of pretrial, a fair trial by and impartial jury is far more important than transparency. JMO

 

[mrjitty]

Do you expect if there’s a transcript it will be publicly released? My own opinion, I really doubt it, it would be argued to be prejudicial to RA since it reflects negatively on his D.

rSBM

I doubt it as Gull already misled everyone about what transpired.

 

[MistyWaters]

rSBM

I doubt it as Gull already misled everyone about what transpired.

Okay, thanks for your opinion but releasing it, even if to prove she didn’t mislead everyone just isn’t a good enough reason IMO.

 

[CGBSpender]

RSBM and bolded. What do you think that agenda is?

Oh gosh, depends on the individual(s) for sure. My speculation based on what I’ve seen since following this case would be some of the following:
- Influencing potential voters for whatever party they work for.
- Promoting social media content for $ and/or attention.
- Promote pressure on LE to focus on a certain POI they may have a personal grudge against and/or might earn them a piece of reward $ and/or a reduced sentence on their own legal issues.
- Discredit public officials who they feel have wronged them somehow on their own case.
- Identify and cultivate vulnerable social media followers that can be exploited for $.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

<snipped>

I don’t think any member of LE, the Courts, the Prosecutor, Defense Attorneys, Etc…actually enjoy being on this case. It is a nightmare of a case for all involved.

JMO

Agreed, murders of children is a tough for starters, add the high profile, emotionally driven media reporting….reputations have a way of getting set in stone, must be like walking on eggshells for those who are directly involved and the trial hasn’t even began. They’re going to need healthy work and lifestyle balances in place, these past few weeks have been bad enough but the worst is yet to come. JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Sorry I don’t want it to appear as if I’m debating. I’m just trying to understand what you see to be an issue with mycase and why it would be considered inaccurate, even if it’s not always precisely up to date or if we can’t see sealed filings.

To your point about “amended, corrected or deleted orders” wouldn’t it be reasonable to conclude the Order Issued on 10/27/2023 serves as the “corrective CCS entry” as it provides the rational as to why certain filings are being deleted?

10/27/2023	Order Issued Court notes filings by former Attorney Rozzi on October 25 and 26, 2023, and takes no action. Attorney Rozzi withdrew from this matter on October 19, 2023, and is no longer counsel of record. These filings, therefore, are ordered stricken from the record. Clerk of the Court ordered to remove the pleadings from the electronic case file and the Chronological Case Summary as being filed in error. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Allen, Richard M. Order Signed: 10/27/2023

One last time to clarify, then I'm scrolling on.
I have no issue with mycase; I've never had an issue with mycase,
I don't now, or have I ever, considered it to be inaccurate.

I noted a fairly big time delay between JG's file stamp and date of filing.
Compared to all the other filings, that delay was unusual; especially for such an important conference.

Someone wondered about the possibility that the earlier date being backdated.
Someone, not me, brought up the disclaimer on mysite regarding errors and omissions.
I was not one of those who thought it was an error.
I believe JG signed her order on 10/19
I believe that order was entered into record on 10/26

Lastly, that was not any point I was making. It was highlighted in the document I linked to.
IMO I think JG noting that the pleadings were filed in error because B/R were no longer RA's attorneys is questionable. IMO

To your point about “amended, corrected or deleted orders”

 

[CGBSpender]

FYI- For those wondering about delays in CCS updates…some food for thought…

Several schools (including Allen Co) were on fall break last week or the week before. Often this can result in people taking vacation time, and thus it’s not unusual to see delays sometimes where staff is getting caught back up entering and typing stuff in the CCS. It happens around the holidays and spring break too sometimes depending on how heavy dockets are.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

FYI- For those wondering about delays in CCS updates…some food for thought…

Several schools (including Allen Co) were on fall break last week or the week before. Often this can result in people taking vacation time, and thus it’s not unusual to see delays sometimes where staff is getting caught back up entering and typing stuff in the CCS. It happens around the holidays and spring break too sometimes depending on how heavy dockets are.

JMO

Good to know, plus the Allen County Clerk of the Court has a website including contact information for concerns.

https://allencoclerk.us/

The Clerk of the Circuit and Superior Courts is a county elected official who serves as an officer of the court and the manager of court information.

 

[CGBSpender]

So if B & R didn’t want to resign as counsel, why the heck did they leave the Courtroom on the 19th? What were they so darn afraid of? Defense attorneys are not easily rattled…a Judge could threaten to send them to jail for contempt and most wouldn’t even so much as flinch.

These guys represent criminals for a living…most have worked as prosecutors at one time, prosecutors don’t scare them, cops sure as heck don’t scare them, they know how to work the system, and most are very confident (borderline arrogant at times). Even non criminal lawyers are generally not adverse to uncomfortable situations…not sure there is any lawyer that hasn’t been cussed out (probably multiple times) by opposing counsel, or pissed off the Court at some point. It’s generally not something that calls for running off with your own lawyer, to the detriment of one’s client.

There has to be more to the story here.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

FYI- For those wondering about delays in CCS updates…some food for thought…

Several schools (including Allen Co) were on fall break last week or the week before. Often this can result in people taking vacation time, and thus it’s not unusual to see delays sometimes where staff is getting caught back up entering and typing stuff in the CCS. It happens around the holidays and spring break too sometimes depending on how heavy dockets are.

JMO

Not in this case for the month of October. You can look at the case and see the file stamp and the file date are all within a day or two of each other. Except for one.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

So if B & R didn’t want to resign as counsel, why the heck did they leave the Courtroom on the 19th? What were they so darn afraid of? Defense attorneys are not easily rattled…a Judge could threaten to send them to jail for contempt and most wouldn’t even so much as flinch.

These guys represent criminals for a living…most have worked as prosecutors at one time, prosecutors don’t scare them, cops sure as heck don’t scare them, they know how to work the system, and most are very confident (borderline arrogant at times). Even non criminal lawyers are generally not adverse to uncomfortable situations…not sure there is any lawyer that hasn’t been cussed out (probably multiple times) by opposing counsel, or pissed off the Court at some point. It’s generally not something that calls for running off with your own lawyer, to the detriment of one’s client.

There has to be more to the story here.

JMO

my opinion as well. From all accounts AB is described as passionate, not ego-driven and performs excellent under pressure. This wasn’t an ambush unless there was information discussed in chambers that had not already been aired publicly.
My mind goes to mental health issues, substance issues or some other sort of unsuitable behavior that goes against Indiana’s Rule of Professional Conduct. All speculation because I pick at things that don’t make sense.

 

[MistyWaters]

Not really. Dinner party chat is very ‘academic’ and quite boring.

This case and it’s shenanigans has caught the attention though.



Whether we want to admit it, we all have some emotional involvement in discussing this and wanting justice for Abby and Libby, otherwise we wouldn’t post so many thoughts or choose to debate points of conjecture.

Having an opinion does not require emotional involvement and perhaps that’s why I couldn’t relate to the ex-D. Almost everything they released was intended to thrive on people becoming emotionally involved by stirring up possibilities of investigative wrong-doing, pity of RA the accused, incompetence of the prosecution and conspiracies within a court system including the Judge, all things that people normally view with great disdain. JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Not in this case for the month of October. You can look at the case and see the file stamp and the file date are all within a day or two of each other. Except for one.

I know we've all wondered about the filing of documents so here is a list of Indiana Case Initiations & Filings Rules. It's lengthy but enlightening IMO.

<snipped>
Filing with the Court: What is Filed and When is it Officially a Part of the Court File (Including Public Access)
Trial Rules 5(E), (F) and (G), 86, 87, and 88; Access to Court Records Rule 5

https://www.in.gov/courts/iocs/files/pubs-trial-court-filing.pdf

 

[katydid23]

Well yes but team members come and go in the normal course of events without disbanding the entire team each time.

Yes, but this wasn't a normal course of events. One member of the team was getting the boot for incompetence bordering upon malfeasance, so his partner had to go as well, IMO.

 

[girlhasnoname]

rSBM

I doubt it as Gull already misled everyone about what transpired.

I'm not clear as to what Gull misled everyone about? In chambers Baldwin agreed to withdraw from the case and made an oral statement to that fact. Rozzi made a statement that he intended to file a written withdrawal which would be provided "within in the next few days". That was recorded and is legal and binding.

This is what Judge Gull spoke to exactly in Open Court directly following that meeting. Now Rozzi is having a change of heart? Too bad, as of the time they left chambers on Oct 19th agreeing to withdraw from representing Defendant Allen, they had no legal standing for filing any further Motions on behalf of him or the case, let alone to file a Motion for Judge Gull's recusal.

The Defense team has been nothing but a showboating, playing fast and loose with letter of the law willy nilly duo since the day they came on board. Their Memorandum in support of the Franks Hearing was enough to get them recused IMO and one of the most exploitive and unethical documents I've ever read on any WS case.

RA deserves better representation than these 2 clowns even if I do think he's guilty. I believe in a Defendant's right to a fair and vigorous defense, which is exactly opposite of what B&R were doing for him. It's unfair to RA, the families of these innocent victims, the court and all involved in this Case. I hope they get disbarred personally.

MOO

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes, but this wasn't a normal course of events. One member of the team was getting the boot for incompetence bordering upon malfeasance, so his partner had to go as well, IMO.

What the issues comprising of “gross negligence”, we don’t know. But by information included in the ex-D filings, it seemed to be a culmination of various issues and more than just the recent leak. Plus there would be no reason for both of the ex-D to be fearful of a “public shaming” if it was nothing more than B’s leak as that was already public knowledge. JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Interesting that according to Rozzis own filing the Judge was annoyed about the Franks memo.

Not surprising.

Really glad these 2 guys are off the case. I felt that was wildly unprofessional. I am still deeply suss about the discovery leaks. How does it happen that some mate is getting heavy access to the case files.

iMO Gull should now also recuse and all is well

I agree with everything you posted, but don't understand why you think Judge Gull should recuse herself?

MOO

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm not clear as to what Gull misled everyone about? In chambers Baldwin agreed to withdraw from the case and made an oral statement to that fact. Rozzi made a statement that he intended to file a written withdrawal which would be provided "within in the next few days". That was recorded and is legal and binding.

This is what Judge Gull spoke to exactly in Open Court directly following that meeting. Now Rozzi is having a change of heart? Too bad, as of the time they left chambers on Oct 19th agreeing to withdraw from representing Defendant Allen, they had no legal standing for filing any further Motions on behalf of him or the case, let alone to file a Motion for Judge Gull's recusal.

The Defense team has been nothing but a showboating, playing fast and loose with letter of the law willy nilly duo since the day they came on board. Their Memorandum in support of the Franks Hearing was enough to get them recused IMO and one of the most exploitive and unethical documents I've ever read on any WS case.

RA deserves better representation than these 2 clowns even if I do think he's guilty. I believe in a Defendant's right to a fair and vigorous defense, which is exactly opposite of what B&R were doing for him. It's unfair to RA, the families of these innocent victims, the court and all involved in this Case. I hope they get disbarred personally.

MOO

It actually wouldn’t surprise me if the ex-D are summoned to a Bar hearing.

I have to wonder if some people are confusing the Judge having the power to remove a public defender from a case WITH issuing defense attorney sanctions which restricts their license to practise. Because it’s not one and the same, at this time B & D can move on to other client business. JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Defense attorney weighs in on Scremin:
Shay Hughes
@publicdefender_

Court would be better served appointing someone who has not publicly commented. His comment about tool marking is troubling as this evidence will be heavily relied upon by the State. Summarily, his comments are favorable to the prosecution. Folks are going to question his representation given this interview. #RobertAllen #Delphi #DelphiMurders #TrueCrime

https://x.com/publicdefender_/status/1718286803759673629?s=20