IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171

[FrostedGlass]

A couple of folks must have missed my memo several posts back.

There was only a status conference listed on the CCS (mycase).
Shay Hughes said a matter of such serious nature should have more than just an email. Here is part of his post:

"Yes, Judge Gull sent an email expressing her concern over Allen’s defense. But she makes no mention of disqualification. Also realize Allen provided a letter wishing Baldwin/Rozzi to remain as counsel on Oct 11, 2023. But a defendant forecasting what a court may do is not adequate notice.

Instead, sufficient notice is tailored to the circumstances of each case and depends on the private/government interests involved. Bc the Oct 19 chambers session involved disqualifying trial counsel, it logically follows that a heightened degree of notice is necessary. Referring to the hearing as a ‘status hearing’ falls short and, in some respects, is misleading as the chambers sessions was much more than mundane."

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I too would like to see it played out in the courtroom. With regard to what the xD wanted, moo, they want the same thing. One thing I do know is, they want justice for RA.

We need not get all hung up on the Odinism. The FM has so much more compelling evidence of negligence on the part of LE in securing the AW. That kind of negligence lead to an AW for a man who had an alibi. He left the trails at 1:30 and went home. Liggett contorted evidence to fit his fanciful timeline which resulted in deceiving a Judge into signing the AW. So much about outrageous “negligence” on the part of the xD. What should we call obtaining an AW under false pretense? Personally, I think it’s criminal but IANAL and don’t truly understand the implications of such actions under the law. All JMO.

I respect everything you’re saying, I just see it differently.
To me, everything in the Franks motion including the things not about pagans, is only the ex-defense’s opinion and speculation about those things. They can cite depositions but yet we still only have the ex-defense’s one sided, self serving summary of how that information should be interpreted. To me, it all is meaningless until there is a hearing or we go to trial.
The fact that the ex-defense felt compelled to staple the Odinist theory onto the Franks motion, and the Odinist theory was 5x longer than the relevant Franks information, makes me very suspicious that the ex-defense was way more interested in getting their pagan theory out to the public, and were just using a hastily prepared Franks motion as a vehicle to make that happen. (Not a conspiracy theory, just things I wonder about)

edit: typo

 

[CGBSpender]

To this day, Gull - who guards this proceeding and it's due process, defendant's rights and public transparency - has failed to provide a record of her findings/decisions for gross negligence, for removal of RA's counsel, for the sealing of the FM, and for the Court's policies on confidentiality.

Your comment here got me thinking...why bother sealing the FM at this point? The cat is already out of the bag so to speak. I've been thinking a lot about the transparency issue, and the FM in particular...and how (if at all) the leaked crime scene photos play a role. As I've stated before, I do tend to agree with the D that it is probable that more than one person was involved in the crime. As such, I tend to lean towards the secrecy possibly being necessary to protect the integrity of the investigation into other individual(s) involved. Your comment caused me to take another look at the FM from a different perspective.

JMO

 

[Ravenmoon]

Depending on how the artery/arteries are cut, major arteries can drain in 2 - 5 min. Death will occur within seconds. JMO

The exD has stated REPEATEDLY that little AW suffered a slow death.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Thought I'd share FYI.

From Wikipedia
An amicus curiae is an individual or organization who is not a party to a legal case, but who is permitted to assist a court by offering information, expertise, or insight that has a bearing on the issues in the case. Whether an amicus brief will be considered is typically under the court's discretion.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Were all their major arteries cut and drained? I've never heard anything that says so.
Was the body drained of blood upon discovery?? Not that we have ever heard.

Why are we even discussing something so preposterous at this point?

Didn't the 136 page document insinuate that AW was the child was hung upside down?

Interesting, since they hammered the point that she died slowly.

We have only heard what they want the public to believe and take as fact.

But, I am with you.. it's preposterous and moreso that we still talk about it.

 

[MistyWaters]

I believe RA deserves better than these two and that says a lot.

But maybe RA is playing the long game here and if they do somehow get reinstated and he is found guilty RA can claim poor representation and make a appeal that way.

MOOO

I really do wonder if B&R still would want back on the case or if they’re relieved to wash their hands of it. Or RA, who’s his preference now that he been working with his new D?

That’s the problem once special interests take over, it becomes a rolling train leaving the people directly involved back at the station.

JMO

 

[Ravenmoon]

Defense attorneys cannot take the intellectually lazy approach you describe here to assess the guilt/innocence of their client. Even if Defense counsel accepts that their client is guilty, they're obligated to take the best possible legal course for their client's best possible legal outcome. They are obligated to mitigate. We'll see a plea deal when there's irrefutable evidence and no reasonable doubt and no mitigating circumstances. Otherwise, we'll see a trial that focuses on facts the expose law enforcement/investigative/evidence errors to develop that reasonable doubt. We'll see the defense bring in mitigating facts. That's the job, and a competent vigorous defense is every US defendant's legal right. JMHO

Do you suppose that the Franks motion was a last ditch effort to save their client from having to make that plea deal?
Cuz I certainly do.

JMO

 

[twall]

Here are the newly unsealed documents I was inquiring about earlier.
(on reporter Angela Ganote's FB)

Angela Ganote

Angela Ganote. 62,366 likes · 9,846 talking about this. Public figure

www.facebook.com

Richard Allen Case: Westville inmate would not testify after claims of retaliation, abuse by employees

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. — In court documents unsealed on Thursday in Carroll County, an inmate at the Westville Correctional Facility wrote a letter to the Carroll County Court explaining why he…

fox59.com

 

[FrostedGlass]

Didn't the 136 page document insinuate that AW was the child was hung upside down?

Interesting, since they hammered the point that she died slowly.

We have only heard what they want the public to believe and take as fact.

But, I am with you.. it's preposterous and moreso that we still talk about it.

We can switch over to Former Rushville Assistant Chief of Police Todd Click's statement to Murder Sheet; surely his word must be truthful?

Q. Some people have suggested that while you disagree with the defense that this was a ritual murder, that you have agreement with them on who is responsible. Is that something you can speak to?'
A: Yes, that is accurate.

Q: Other than the material about the cult angle, can you discuss how good of a job the defense did discussing the evidence against their suspect?
A It would be impossible for me to explain anything further without revealing details of the investigation but it was fairly accurate.

The Delphi Murders: The Franks Memorandum: Questions: Part Two

In this episode, we will answer a litany of legal questions stemming from the Franks memorandum recently filed in the Delphi murders case. Send tips to murdersheet@gmail.com. The Murder Sheet is a production of Mystery Sheet LLC .

art19.com

 

[Ravenmoon]

We can switch over to Former Rushville Assistant Chief of Police Todd Click's statement to Murder Sheet; surely his word must be truthful?

Q. Some people have suggested that while you disagree with the defense that this was a ritual murder, that you have agreement with them on who is responsible. Is that something you can speak to?'
A: Yes, that is accurate.

Q: Other than the material about the cult angle, can you discuss how good of a job the defense did discussing the evidence against their suspect?
A It would be impossible for me to explain anything further without revealing details of the investigation but it was fairly accurate.

The Delphi Murders: The Franks Memorandum: Questions: Part Two

In this episode, we will answer a litany of legal questions stemming from the Franks memorandum recently filed in the Delphi murders case. Send tips to murdersheet@gmail.com. The Murder Sheet is a production of Mystery Sheet LLC .

art19.com

Well, IMO the statement of "who is responsible" is potentially a loaded question.

That could go back to another individual setting up the meeting between RA and the girls.

There is a lack of conversation stating who carried out the physical murders.


Obviously, Click isn't on board with creepy Odinists lurking in the woods.... hoping, waiting to make a sacrifice to the mighty Odin.

I would say that he agrees with the girls dying by knife inflicted wounds, the staging and one girl being nude while the other girl was double clothed.

EBM for grammar


JMO

 

[Emma Peel]

Why would they expect a formal legal notice for a hearing that they considered to be a public shaming?

RSBM

Because they are lawyers they expect due process.

I think the Judge should’ve released it during the public hearing regardless.

RSBM

She can't do that because of due process.

ETA - Hennessy had already been engaged by R and had filed a brief the day before the chambers meeting. They were not taken by surprise.

RSBM

The surprise is the abandonment of due process.
This is why we're at SCOIN and not having a Franks hearing.

 

[CGBSpender]

Delete if not allowed...

I'm a bit slow on the uptake, so my apologies if discussed before...someone posted a direct quote in the last week or two from either LE or Ives stating earlier in the investigation that the scene may have been staged to mislead investigators or lead them down the wrong path. Well...based on what is alleged about the scene from the FM...the scene was staged in a manner that might lead one down the path of Odin and/or Asatru ritual intent. With that in mind...

I can't help but find it a little suspicious that a tipster, in another State, probably an easy 500+ miles away from Delphi, Indiana...within 48 hours of the bodies being discovered (Feb 16, 2017), allegedly calls in a tip about BH, and: 1) knows about a connection between BH and a victim, and 2) allegedly knows nothing about the crime scene, yet points LE to some social media posts of BH with similarities and Odin references. It's like within 48 hrs a pretty good suspect lead was handed to LE on a silver platter....a suspect that matched how the killer staged the scene...but a scene possibly staged to purposefully mislead. I'd love to know the Vegas odds on that lol.

The FBI then interviews BH on 02/17/2017, and at some point prior to 03/12/2017...the tipster is told that BH is not a suspect. What does the tipster do? They contact ISP on 03/12/2017 and convince them to look at BH as a suspect, and provide additional information to ISP off the internet about Odinism, runes, and ritual sacrifice. Again...all allegedly stuff about the crime scene kept pretty close to the vest. Coincidence, or is the tipster trying for some reason to push LE down the same path that the person who staged the scene wanted LE to go down?

I could go down all kinds of rabbit holes. Is there more to why the GBI was asked to look at the case in early 2018? How detailed was the 02/16/2017 tip...was actually specific as to BH, or did that info come later? Because a resident of the BBR house searched on 02/16/2017 has the same first name as a person in BH's family I believe, and was an alleged bf of a victim...is that what spurred the BBR search...a tip alleging that a family member of a bf may be involved? What did the tipster put in their affidavit attached to the FM? Does that have anything to do with why the FM is sealed...because the rest of the memo was already disclosed...so what's the point in sealing it now...except the exhibits haven't been made public as far as I'm aware.

JMO

 

[mrjitty]

Whether or not the duo got sufficient notice of the hearing isn’t going to change the substantive outcome of said hearing.

I do agree that SCOIN should probably direct said formal hearing be held.

Given the defence already admitted the key allegations I suspect that Gull would end up having to deliver a formal reasoned order on the matter which could then be appealed if counsel think she got the law wrong.

 

[MistyWaters]

A couple of folks must have missed my memo several posts back.

There was only a status conference listed on the CCS (mycase).
Shay Hughes said a matter of such serious nature should have more than just an email. Here is part of his post:

"Yes, Judge Gull sent an email expressing her concern over Allen’s defense. But she makes no mention of disqualification. Also realize Allen provided a letter wishing Baldwin/Rozzi to remain as counsel on Oct 11, 2023. But a defendant forecasting what a court may do is not adequate notice.

Instead, sufficient notice is tailored to the circumstances of each case and depends on the private/government interests involved. Bc the Oct 19 chambers session involved disqualifying trial counsel, it logically follows that a heightened degree of notice is necessary. Referring to the hearing as a ‘status hearing’ falls short and, in some respects, is misleading as the chambers sessions was much more than mundane."

IMO SH is missing information that none of us know - an email makes no mention of “disqualification” but Hennessy writes and files a Memorandum regarding possible disqualification and sanctions prior to the 12:30 meeting in the judge’s chambers which had to have been prearranged or nobody would’ve showed up.

Behind the scenes of the Delphi defense team’s dismissal

ALLEN COUNTY, Ind. — When Allen Superior Judge Fran Gull took the bench a half-hour later than anticipated Thursday afternoon to announce that Delphi defendant Richard Allen’s defense team wa…

fox59.com

“Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland and the defense attorneys entered Judge Gull’s chambers for a pow-wow at 12:30 p.m. as Hennessy sat on a bench in the hallway, waiting to be summoned.

As the 2 p.m. starting time passed, it was obvious that talks were continuing and the results would be potentially significant.”

As stated durn the most recent MS podcast, SH also believed the ex-ds leak only violated the gag order and so they should’ve only been subject to contempt of court charges. The hosts corrected him, clarifying it was the protection order over discovery that was violated. That suggests to me he’s not an expert regarding matters involving criminal cases. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Whether or not the duo got sufficient notice of the hearing isn’t going to change the substantive outcome of said hearing.

I do agree that SCOIN should probably direct said formal hearing be held.

Given the defence already admitted the key allegations I suspect that Gull would end up having to deliver a formal reasoned order on the matter which could then be appealed if counsel think she got the law wrong.

IF the transcipt of the meeting in judges chambers proves both B&R verbally withdrew, I’m not so sure there’s be need for a formal hearing to conclude the matter. IIRC within one of R’s later motions filed didn’t he admit they’d both withdrew??

Regardless B&R should get a say in things. Depending to what extent they‘d consider any public formal reviews or hearings to also constitute a public shaming, if they want the examples of their gross negligence to remain confidential that should be their right (unless further actions involving criminality or bar violations are involved) IMO.

 

[Emma Peel]

Your comment here got me thinking...why bother sealing the FM at this point? The cat is already out of the bag so to speak. I've been thinking a lot about the transparency issue, and the FM in particular...and how (if at all) the leaked crime scene photos play a role. As I've stated before, I do tend to agree with the D that it is probable that more than one person was involved in the crime. As such, I tend to lean towards the secrecy possibly being necessary to protect the integrity of the investigation into other individual(s) involved. Your comment caused me to take another look at the FM from a different perspective.

JMO

Great.
And, if this is the case, then Gull can provide that as her rationale. JMHO

It would be interesting if Defense - inadvertently - just stepped in it - with the Click tip to the Odin-tied investigation and suspects.

e.g. hypothetical:
IF the Prosecutor had already confirmed with Gull the specifics of ongoing investigation(s) in hot pursuit of others involved in this crime, and asked Gull (in camera) if the P could delay providing specific discovery up to a certain date, Gull might have granted this request and no one, not even the D would know.

rut roh. I see rabbit holes.

 

[Emma Peel]

Delete if not allowed...

I'm a bit slow on the uptake, so my apologies if discussed before...someone posted a direct quote in the last week or two from either LE or Ives stating earlier in the investigation that the scene may have been staged to mislead investigators or lead them down the wrong path. Well...based on what is alleged about the scene from the FM...the scene was staged in a manner that might lead one down the path of Odin and/or Asatru ritual intent. With that in mind...

I can't help but find it a little suspicious that a tipster, in another State, probably an easy 500+ miles away from Delphi, Indiana...within 48 hours of the bodies being discovered (Feb 16, 2017), allegedly calls in a tip about BH, and: 1) knows about a connection between BH and a victim, and 2) allegedly knows nothing about the crime scene, yet points LE to some social media posts of BH with similarities and Odin references. It's like within 48 hrs a pretty good suspect lead was handed to LE on a silver platter....a suspect that matched how the killer staged the scene...but a scene possibly staged to purposefully mislead. I'd love to know the Vegas odds on that lol.

The FBI then interviews BH on 02/17/2017, and at some point prior to 03/12/2017...the tipster is told that BH is not a suspect. What does the tipster do? They contact ISP on 03/12/2017 and convince them to look at BH as a suspect, and provide additional information to ISP off the internet about Odinism, runes, and ritual sacrifice. Again...all allegedly stuff about the crime scene kept pretty close to the vest. Coincidence, or is the tipster trying for some reason to push LE down the same path that the person who staged the scene wanted LE to go down?

I could go down all kinds of rabbit holes. Is there more to why the GBI was asked to look at the case in early 2018? How detailed was the 02/16/2017 tip...was actually specific as to BH, or did that info come later? Because a resident of the BBR house searched on 02/16/2017 has the same first name as a person in BH's family I believe, and was an alleged bf of a victim...is that what spurred the BBR search...a tip alleging that a family member of a bf may be involved? What did the tipster put in their affidavit attached to the FM? Does that have anything to do with why the FM is sealed...because the rest of the memo was already disclosed...so what's the point in sealing it now...except the exhibits haven't been made public as far as I'm aware.

JMO

oh! see? rabbit holes. hoppity hoppity

 

[susiQ]

Didn't the 136 page document insinuate that AW was the child was hung upside down?

Interesting, since they hammered the point that she died slowly.

We have only heard what they want the public to believe and take as fact.

But, I am with you.. it's preposterous and moreso that we still talk about it.

I have no way of knowing how the xD came to the conclusion that AW died slowly. I was responding to OP who said there wasn’t enough time to collect blood from a body. I’m telling you there is, that’s all. I have no details as to all the injuries these poor children suffered or how it all went down. I was speaking only to that one point. JMHO

 

[Jurisprudence]

On the first page of results, none were about ballistic identification of an unspent bullet to an individual gun. The closest was the type of bullet leading to one of two hunters in a poaching case. Many cases involve unspent bullets being part of evidence but I’ve looked into this a few times now and haven’t found another case of an unspent bullet being identified to an individual gun.

I don’t have much experience looking for a specific type of case though so maybe others know better ways to search.

I took a look too and found no case where the defendant was convicted on evidence of an unspent bullet alone. I think SB was correct when noting that there are cases where unspent bullets were part of the evidence, but not the totality of it. And, I think there are no cases because there has never been a case where an unspent round was the PRIMARY piece of evidence upon which a prosecutor hung its hat to get a conviction. I could be wrong but I didn't find one on a quick search. There are cases that discuss it being a part of the evidence, in one the defendant admitted it was his, in another it was an issue in a suppression hearing (it was objective and reasonable for officers to assume upon seeing it in vehicle that defendant was armed). There have been write-ups on the forensic analysis of "unspent bullet casings" supporting the fact that this evidence is admissible, but none where it was banked on for the whole ball of wax because it is so susceptible to attack.

jmo

Attorney who handles gun cases talks about unused bullet linked to Delphi murders

DELPHI, Ind. — The probable cause affidavit released Tuesday claimed an unused round of ammunition was found between the bodies of two girls in February 2017. Forensic experts scientifically linked the bullet to the gun found in Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen’s home when they searched it...

www.wishtv.com