IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #172

[Tealgrove]

I don’t feel we’ve heard the full story somehow

I’m not sure we ever will.

 

[mrjitty]

I misspoke here - defense did not state that they had heard of a man in Texas claiming that he had a leak from defense the week of October 2nd in an email. They stated this in an Ex-Parte Pleading. The email sent to JG on 10/6 pointed to Rick Snay.

Thanks for the interesting posts

A couple more points to note

1. The reason why Texas guy was saying he had a leak from Baldwin is likely the 'strategy leak' stuff MS say they have seen. According to them, it's clearly Baldwin's stuff, including his travel. MS say they gave this to law enforcement. Given confirmation they gave the photos, I am included to believe this, though it does not mean the 'strategy leak' they saw was real. Someone could theoretically have faked it. Source is the two recent MS podcasts on the case.

2. Rozzi says BA and MW discussed strategy including on this case. Yet BA and MW do not admit to this as far as we know? (BA might have admitted to it in his police interview but we haven't see that). This might reflect the different positions of the attorneys. i.e Rozzi is admitting everything he knew, whereas Baldwin has to be much more careful about damaging admissions due to personal exposure.

My view is MWs original skimpy affidavit and BAs recounting of finding out about the leak from MW leave quite a lot unsaid. e.g how did he come to be in the war room? Had he been allowed in there before?

It's worth remembering that the only evidence we have that BA was not knowingly involved in this is his own claim plus MW's willingness to take one for the team. On the other hand, leaking stuff that could obviously be traced to BA is just bizarre on the part of MW. Nothing about this makes much sense - but maybe MW is just that naive and stupid that he thought this could fly?

wild speculation: Sometimes in PR, one uses a cut out who is familiar with your thinking

 

[DeDee]

Reporter:
"The Judge continues to be the center of attention."

NOV 21, 2023

 

[girlhasnoname]

If this happened as MS say I don’t think it is a crime? So maybe only a disciplinary proceeding would get to the bottom of it.

What we know of MWs admissions seem quite tightly contained. I would not be surprised if he just pleads out and never explains it.

The 'leak' went on to others, one whom committed suicide, and approx 50 others as was stated. If 50 people got them, I feel confident they then passed them along to untold numbers more.

The Defense had 4 incidents since their appointment as outlined in Judge G's hearing at the October 19th of their questionable negligence. I find that unreasonable when they are defending a man in one of the highest profile cases in IN history. Actually, I find it unreasonable for anyone's Defendants attorneys to be so unprofessional in the way they handle sensitive and confidential information.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Reporter:
"The Judge continues to be the center of attention."

NOV 21, 2023

I think RA actually looks pretty healthy here considering.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

DBM: Already discussed above.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I think RA actually looks pretty healthy here considering.

MOO

IMO they thought there was going to be a trial in a couple of months; needed him to look better. Westville sure didn't want him to sit before a jury looking like a prisoner of war. MOO Whatever treatment they have/are giving him seems to be working.

 

[girlhasnoname]

They should have attemped to getting bail. Maybe they are afraid to get the presumption great label attached to RA.

Also RA looks like someone trying to pretend they are crazy.
He can look a mess in still photos but videos convey an acting job.

Also there is no reason he couldn't be in a correctional mental facility right now being restored to understand the proceedings against him if the defense had a qualified psychogist recommend it to the court.

They were going to address transfer and bail motions at the June hearing. That is when the information of the 5 recorded phone confessions were revealed. I believe that quashed all possibility of potential bail, and Judge G said she found no proof of mistreatment that the Defense alleged in the Motion to Transfer after the evidence presented by the State and the DOC.

In fact she said it contained outright inaccuracies by the Defense. However, she did rule against the State in a their Motion to obtain RA's medical/mental health records, but she did add that if the Defense continued to cite his mental health status or abuse by the staff of Westville, they were close to opening the door to allow the State those records.

MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

The 'leak' went on to others, one whom committed suicide, and approx 50 others as was stated. If 50 people got them, I feel confident they then passed them along to untold numbers more.

The Defense had 4 incidents since their appointment as outlined in Judge G's hearing at the October 19th of their questionable negligence. I find that unreasonable when they are defending a man in one of the highest profile cases in IN history. Actually, I find it unreasonable for anyone's Defendants attorneys to be so unprofessional in the way they handle sensitive and confidential information.

JMO

You mentioned that "50 people" before. I have not come across that number; do you have a link for it?

We've heard MS, RS, GH and a woman received the photos and then we can include MW, who leaked to ?, who leaked to Texas.

 

[girlhasnoname]

You mentioned that "50 people" before. I have not come across that number; do you have a link for it?

We've heard MS, RS, GH and a woman received the photos and then we can include MW, who leaked to ?, who leaked to Texas.

Approx 50 people and I will have to dig for the reference, but happy to do so. Give me a moment.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Approx 50 people and I will have to dig for the reference, but happy to do so. Give me a moment.

The reason I'm curious is MW's offence was dated August 1, 2023 but this whole crime scene photo issue didn't come to light until MS brought revealed it on October 5. Now, the others had them for a while but we don't know when they got their copies. I'm assuming they didn't have them very long (a few days?) before they started blabbing to their audience.

I'm curious what was happening with the photos for those 60 days.

 

[girlhasnoname]

The reason I'm curious is MW's offence was dated August 1, 2023 but this whole crime scene photo issue didn't come to light until MS brought revealed it on October 5. Now, the others had them for a while but we don't know when they got their copies. I'm assuming they didn't have them very long (a few days?) before they started blabbing to their audience.

I'm curious what was happening with the photos for those 60 days.

I agree with your line of thinking here, the 'leaked' info. was out earlier than we can prove right now.

MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

I agree with your line of thinking here, the 'leaked' info. was out earlier than we can prove right now.

MOO

Just to clarify: I think the info was leaked within a short period of time from MS's release of the info.
I also wonder if the leak was timed.

While you're searching for those "50 people", if you come across the actual number of photos, please post that, too. I'm thinking I saw/heard there were more than 2 photos total but that may be inaccurate.

 

[Betty P]

The Murder Sheer discussed the arrest of MW on a podcast yesterday. I found it an interesting listen given they had direct knowledge of the protected discovery and the privileged strategy shared.


The Delphi Murders: The Arrest of Mitchell Westerman

Reporter:
"The Judge continues to be the center of attention."

NOV 21, 2023

Richard Allen continues to be upset with the judge in this case! I’m shocked, because most people on trial for murder love their judges. /s

How did this case become so crazy? If the local gentry are always so hostile towards their own duly elected members of the criminal justice system, it could explain why they have so much violent crime, drug addiction, etc.

Do they always have so much sympathy for their local monsters? The local news media is questioning the judge, who is just doing her job and following the law? JMO.

Why are they allowing the previous, discredted defense team to continue running this trial?
JMO

 

[Megnut]

Incoming layperson opinion:

This case is arguably one of Indiana's most high profile. According to LE, the investigation exposed a huge labyrinth of CSAM. Two young girls were abducted and lost their lives, in brutal fashion.

LE, the Prosecution and the Defense have an enormous DUTY to guard the evidence until trial.

IMO there is no place for a concept like "snookered" in a case of this magnitude (or any case for that matter). DUTY. The Defense had a DUTY to protect those sensitive photos. Fort Knox level of DUTY.

That means lock and key. Authorized personal only. No one given unfettered access. No one given access without supervision. This is basic.

That singilar breach has upended this trial.

Justice is delayed and -- for now -- denied for those two girls and their families.

Another family is grieving the loss of their husband and father.

I don't defend the accused but I do defend the Constitution and the right to a fair trial. While IIRC RA did waive his right to a speedy trial at some point, no defendant should have to waive it indefinitely. The Judge has a duty too.

Between the sloppy Frank's memo and the distribution of crime scene photos, I shake my head. Charges, sanctions. This is ethics stuff -- and ought IMO to come before the Bar.

RA does have the right to be represented, but even when a defendant chooses to represent himself, the sitting judge still appoints counsel to supervise, more or less. A defendant has a right to a fair trial and a decent defense, even in the case where he wishes to represent himself, badly.

If defense lawyers themselves are under scrutiny for grievous errors out of their own conference rooms, IMO the conflict of interest is obvious.

Appoint new lawyers. If the defendant and his counsel want to bring on extra lawyers, paid or pro bono, let them bring them on as consultants, but again and IMO, for a proper conviction a competent defense is vital.

The original defense team's position that they would be ready for trial by January is utterly disingenuous IMO. They themselves were crying foul -- failure by the State to provide discovery, failure of LE to investigate other leads, etc, etc. Whoever represents RA, it's in his best interest to have sound representation and if takes a calendar year to accomplish that, then he should jump on it. Well, unless he wants to plead out....

So, that's my final answer -- as a layperson trying to follow this convoluted mess --

I support the judge's decision to appoint new cousel (reserving my own judgment whether she handled the removal properly). If RA and his new defense team want help from the Baldwin and Rozzi pony show, bring 'em on. As consultants. They already indicated they were willing to work for free so....

It sort of feels like two little girls are lost in this, left out in the cold abandoned crime scene, while the politics of theatre law overwhelm the headlines...

I must always remind myself that the legal system in the US is not designed around the rights of the victims -- it's about those charged with crimes. It's about their rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It's a high bar in this country to repeal those from an individual.

The sooner we have a ready State, the right judge, and an adequate counsel in place, the sooner RA can go before a jury of his peers as is his right.

And that is the proper path to conviction.

And the right way IMO to return a modicum of justice to the families of Abby and Libby.

JM uneducated but sincere O

 

[Ward Thisperer]

It's worth remembering that the only evidence we have that BA was not knowingly involved in this is his own claim plus MW's willingness to take one for the team. On the other hand, leaking stuff that could obviously be traced to BA is just bizarre on the part of MW. Nothing about this makes much sense - but maybe MW is just that naive and stupid that he thought this could fly?

[sbm] We do now also have the fact that the investigation into the leaks has culminated with MW being charged with taking the pictures without permission. It seems that the LE investigation did not lead to a different finding than what AB and MW have said.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Thanks for the interesting posts

A couple more points to note

1. The reason why Texas guy was saying he had a leak from Baldwin is likely the 'strategy leak' stuff MS say they have seen. According to them, it's clearly Baldwin's stuff, including his travel. MS say they gave this to law enforcement. Given confirmation they gave the photos, I am included to believe this, though it does not mean the 'strategy leak' they saw was real. Someone could theoretically have faked it. Source is the two recent MS podcasts on the case.

2. Rozzi says BA and MW discussed strategy including on this case. Yet BA and MW do not admit to this as far as we know? (BA might have admitted to it in his police interview but we haven't see that). This might reflect the different positions of the attorneys. i.e Rozzi is admitting everything he knew, whereas Baldwin has to be much more careful about damaging admissions due to personal exposure.

My view is MWs original skimpy affidavit and BAs recounting of finding out about the leak from MW leave quite a lot unsaid. e.g how did he come to be in the war room? Had he been allowed in there before?

It's worth remembering that the only evidence we have that BA was not knowingly involved in this is his own claim plus MW's willingness to take one for the team. On the other hand, leaking stuff that could obviously be traced to BA is just bizarre on the part of MW. Nothing about this makes much sense - but maybe MW is just that naive and stupid that he thought this could fly?

wild speculation: Sometimes in PR, one uses a cut out who is familiar with your thinking

Agree all around. It seems that BR is doing most of the communicating so AB can hold his tongue. BR has been the one to email, file ex-parte and took the floor at the in chambers meeting. IMO AB seemed like he wanted to withdraw and get out of dodge saying as little as possible.
What has been presented by AB and MW is a small slice of the truth. I hope LE does their duty and finds the whole scope of the leak business.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Agree all around. It seems that BR is doing most of the communicating so AB can hold his tongue. BR has been the one to email, file ex-parte and took the floor at the in chambers meeting. IMO AB seemed like he wanted to withdraw and get out of dodge saying as little as possible.
What has been presented by AB and MW is a small slice of the truth. I hope LE does their duty and finds the whole scope of the leak business.

I believe BR was the lead attorney; can't prove that now because they've removed that record..
I would guess that's what lead atty's do.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Just to clarify: I think the info was leaked within a short period of time from MS's release of the info.
I also wonder if the leak was timed.

While you're searching for those "50 people", if you come across the actual number of photos, please post that, too. I'm thinking I saw/heard there were more than 2 photos total but that may be inaccurate.

I went down a 2 hour rabbit hole on this, can't find it but know I've read it on more than one occasion. But, that being said, I'll have to refrain from repeating that again until I can find it. It might have been on a site that isn't MSM.

IIRC In the Gray Hughes said in his video that he had received 5 or 6 leaked photos.

MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

I’m curious as to why they said MRC was such a good guy in their episodes discussing the leaks when the PCA for MW says MRC sent it to “various creators of YouTube channels and podcasts”. Do they address that in the episode?

I’m also curious about the timeline because NM said in the 10/19 transcript that he has been investigating the leak nonstop for 17 days (so since 10/2). But the MW PCA says LE was made aware of the leak on 10/5 via MS.

Rozzi notifies NM and JG via email on 10/6 and in his letter he says they learned about the leak “the week of 10/2”. That isn’t very specific.

He also says MW confessed to Baldwin on 10/9.

Is there anything I’m missing to clarify how NM and possibly the D would have known about it on 10/2?

edit- clarified some dates

I just forced myself to listen to that podcase. As to your first question: I didn't hear them address that in their episode.

From the timeline, it seems that NM had to have gotten the leaked info first. IMO Since MS talked about how damaging it was for the D's strategy to be leaked to the prosecution...well, that just leads to more questions.