IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #174

[katydid23]

Are we sure that this statement is true in its entirety? We know for sure that the discovery materials were compromised.

We don't know for sure whether anyone posted the pictures of the bodies online--but they were shared with others, including two YouTube sites. So who knows how many individuals were sent them offline?

Main thing is they were disseminated and pictures of the crime scene, like the blood on the tree were posted. That should never have happened.

We know for sure that pictures of alleged Odinist runes from the CS were posted on the web. The FM has alleged that Odinists posted what look like reenactments of the CS before that info was publicly available. I have not seen the claim that the actual bodies were posted. But let me admit I may have missed more than a few details of the goings on. Been away.

The discovery and trial strategy and crime scene photos were illegally shared with others. That is criminal negligence, IMO.

 

[katydid23]

Playing devil's advocate here, posted online and received by Podcasters and YTers are 2 different things. Gray Hughes said on the video linked here that he received the photos of Libby and Abby and went on to describe them. Their body positioning, that Libby was nude, Abby clothed etc. So he has seen them with his own eyes.

He didn't show the actual photos of the girls, but graphically described them and then had stick figure drawings representing how the branches and runes were placed. He did show the picture of the blood smeared tree and the ones of Libby's shoe in the creek.

So while MS doesn't think the photos have been posted on the internet, that really doesn't mean much to me. I feel strongly that if one person had them and sent them out to others, (MW, MRC, RF, Others that we know of so far) they are on the internet somewhere still today I'd bet.

It's a shame we're even having to have this discussion. What a violation and exploitation of innocent victims.

JMO

EXACTLY. Well said. You explained it better than my attempt at it. Just the fact that some random YouTubers received the photos of the bodies is egregious enough. JMO

 

[katydid23]

I recommend listening to TMS episode
There were some interesting comments made in regards to:
In chambers discussion of conduct prior to gag order being ordered.
Victim's family became aware of the bloody tree photo prior to TMS receiving it from MRC.
TMS believes they are not accounted to properly in the motion as they are referred to as one entity.
TMS believes they led investigators to the leak and communications not the other way around.
TMS said there was a connection between MRC and BW.
AB's admission to the leak to investigators was not made until after investigators had already connected the dots. TMS believe AB was trying to get ahead of the information with MW.
NMC states MW was given a copy of the FM to review prior to it being filed and it included exhibits that included protected scene photos. The same photos that were then leaked. TMS states that it's questionable whether the exhibits were attached, the language is confusing.
It appears this was an ongoing information that AB was consistently sharing information, protected and otherwise. TMS does not believe that MW had one time access and made a snap decision to share.
They discuss the iCloud screenshots showing candid ongoing information between AB and MW. AB's sharing strengths and weaknesses of the case that ultimately ended up being leaked which ended up getting into the hands of prosecution
TMS address that it doesn't appear RA was aware of the full extent of the leak and damages. He should have been included in chambers meeting. His letter stating he acknowledged the leak was limited in nature and his rights should be considered.

Nice summary, thank you.

for focus:

They discuss the iCloud screenshots showing candid ongoing information between AB and MW. AB's sharing strengths and weaknesses of the case that ultimately ended up being leaked which ended up getting into the hands of prosecution
TMS address that it doesn't appear RA was aware of the full extent of the leak and damages. He should have been included in chambers meeting. His letter stating he acknowledged the leak was limited in nature and his rights should be considered.

This portion is very interesting. It sheds new light upon Judge G's decision to find a new defense team for RA. She did say she was trying to protect him and the above info makes that clear to me now.

What they did was very damaging to their client and they lied to him by minimising the damage. The prosecution should not have been given info about the D's trial strategy and their assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of the case.

 

[katydid23]

I agree, it was a good episode, and thanks for the summary. The whole issue with MW having the FM, with included attachments, is interesting. So the photos that were leaked were in the FM? Because if they were, and MW already had a copy with attachments, I don't see any reason for him to sneak into AB's office. I'm just curious about that. Nobody has disputed that he took the photos in the office.

Good point. Maybe he never did sneak into that conference room? Maybe that was just a cover story to avoid disclosing the raw truth that the leaks were ongoing and MW was given the info, he didnt snatch it.

 

[stormymama]

Good point. Maybe he never did sneak into that conference room? Maybe that was just a cover story to avoid disclosing the raw truth that the leaks were ongoing and MW was given the info, he didnt snatch it.

That's what I think. Moo

 

[mrjitty]

Me neither. Murky is not good for a court document. In my mind, if MW had the attachments already, then he could have shared the photos without needing to steal them from AB's office. That doesn't make sense to me. His actions make it appear that he did not have private copies of the attachments (JMO). And if he didn't, my question is why NMcL left that murky at all? He doesn't need that piece to make his case, IMO. But leaving it this way makes him look questionable. Why the hell can't anyone be forthright in this case?

I presume NMcL is just quoting what AB admitted in his police interview. They may not know precisely what was shared. Also there may well be exhibits / affidavits that will accompany the motion, and even an evidentiary hearing - not everything will be in the motion itself.

 

[mrjitty]

I wonder how McL was able to get a search warrant for MW's iCloud. His case isn't even Carroll Co. OR does that even matter?

Isn't there some other team working the leak case? I vaguely remember that - so it may not have been McL at all.

 

[FromGermany1]

I think you've asked some great questions and wanted to respond to the rest of your post here - it could be that he's confessed of his own accord, and that he is guilty. OR. It could be a number of things:

"Another major factor in false confessions is “contamination.” Showing crime scene photos or sharing other evidence is a typical way police contaminate a person’s story, prompting them to incorporate facts about a crime of which they otherwise have no knowledge.(((James Trainum, How the Police Generate False Confessions – An Inside Look at the Interrogation Room, Rowan & Littlefield (2016), pp. 133-35.))) It is how innocent people with no knowledge of a crime learn what happened: police can unintentionally (or intentionally) leak information to the suspect when trying to convince them of the strength of the “evidence” against them." --

False Confessions, Explained

Ending false confessions is a moral imperative that requires action from police and all the stakeholders in the criminal legal system.

theappeal.org

This is what I want more information about before I deem his "confessions" as signs of his guilt. We do not know what questions he was asked by LE. We don't know if they showed him photos of the scene, or if they lied outright to him in their statements to him. We don't know if they told him the court would go easier on him if he confessed at all, or to someone in particular. We don't know what he said, or when. We don't know if he was in sight of the guards when he made those statements or if the man was intimidated somehow into thinking that Odinists might get him or his loved ones if he didn't confess. We just don't know. What we DO know, from other cases, and from any small amount of research online is that false confessions can and do happen, seemingly more commonly than even I had previously thought. That link I posted shows clearly some of the tactics used by investigators to get a "confession". Did they employ those techniques in this case? I don't know yet. I'd like the state to prove their case - that this is the man who kidnapped and killed those girls that day, beyond a reasonable doubt before I convict him in my own mind. Right now, I'm afraid I don't trust the LE, the state or even the defence team one bit.

I wonder, if RA thought, it would be better for his mum, to hear a confession of an evil crime from her son and die of a heart attack than having possibly some Odinists come after her. I believe, the confession was rather justified. MOO

 

[mrjitty]

Nice summary, thank you.

for focus:


This portion is very interesting. It sheds new light upon Judge G's decision to find a new defense team for RA. She did say she was trying to protect him and the above info makes that clear to me now.

What they did was very damaging to their client and they lied to him by minimising the damage. The prosecution should not have been given info about the D's trial strategy and their assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of the case.

This is a point MS made again today but first made when they first broke the story back in October.

It's bad for RA that trial strategy and other info was being leaked - and now it's in the hands of law enforcement.

He really should consider getting rid of at least AB but I doubt he is getting good advice.

 

[Ravenmoon]

I just cannot get past this:

"The amount of harm and revictimization that [the leak] has caused the families of the victims is unmeasurable and incurable,”( quote from NMcL)

This is what people should be concerned about. This is the root of evil that has grown into a weed that is like Kudzu.

And, yet, it feels like most people are focused on the Defense, Judge Gull and poor RA. I will never understand.


Obviously, this is just all my opinion.

 

[Salah11]

I just cannot get past this:

"The amount of harm and revictimization that [the leak] has caused the families of the victims is unmeasurable and incurable,”( quote from NMcL)

This is what people should be concerned about. This is the root of evil that has grown into a weed that is like Kudzu.

And, yet, it feels like most people are focused on the Defense, Judge Gull and poor RA. I will never understand.


Obviously, this is just all my opinion.

I couldn’t agree more with what you just said. It’s a shame the family’s of the girls are not given the same amount of concern here IMO.

 

[scapa]

I'm not sure how to feel about any of this. I'm not comfortable with the belief system that every word from the D is a lie and every word from the P is truth. That possible omissions from the D should be grounds for severe reprimands, while possible omissions from LE are summarily dismissed without hearing.

It took NMcL nearly a year and three months to correct the charges against RA. RA has been in IDOC most of that time, without private access to his lawyers. JG hasn't followed due process.

The D have done things they shouldn't have done, yes, and they should be sanctioned. But why are all the wrongdoings done by the rest of the parties not punishable?

I'm exhausted for the families.

This.

The bolded sums up my entire remaining feelings about this case. From the discovery and accompanying horrors to the photo of BG, right on through the bizarro PCs and excursions to The Shack and into the cruel cul de sac of KK's vile catfishing and CSAM collecting and on without pause to the arrest and subsequent media tour by DC to open the ensuing Circus-without-end.

I am hopeful for a trial that will ensure some measure of justice and even resolution for some family and friends.

I do not look forward to yet more monetizing scoops or leaks or over-air slugfests that will yet again retraumatize A&L's loved ones.

Some cases never end, some can't end, and some need to end for the well-being of those most affected.

I hope, hope, and hope this ends, and ends well for their sake.

 

[Emma Peel]

Weineke commentary:

https://x.com/Wienekelo/status/1752408295053176865?s=20

Below's my understanding ... as to allegations raised in the P's recent Contempt motion ...

As usual, of this is JMHO:

LE investigation had access to phones, computers, passwords, texts, forum activity of anyone involved in leak. Results of that investigation are under seal. McL levels allegations without providing facts, hiding names. ONLY LE investigation has the ability to assess when these leaks began, the source, and

Baldwin/Rozzi wrote a narrative report to the Court about the leak info they were given from Westerman - upon Westerman owning his betrayal to Baldwin. (IIRC, Baldwin told him to get a lawyer and cooperate. Westerman wrote his own affidavit and had it notorized; provided it to Baldwin.)

Westerman knew what Westerman knew. He told Baldwin he photographed and then shared crime scene photos w/ RF, and (IIRC), Westerman told Baldwin approximate dates/occasions he shared the crime scene photos. Whatever Westerman told Baldwin is reported by the D to the Court in the narrative provided to the Court and the P (Rozzi wrote this report, its on the docket and in the SCOIN submissions). In that report was the D's understanding of the timeframe when the crime scene materials in question were organized and on the table for D's depositions of LE witnesses.

Baldwin/Rozzi only knew what Westerman knew. They didn't examine his digital material; LE did.

The party that has information as to exact dates of the beginning of the leaks is the LE investigation of Westerman. MRC - Murder Sheet's "source" and the mass leaker - has cooperated and his ID is protected in the P's Contempt motion here.

We know from various you-tubers, including Murder Sheet, that end-receivers of the leaks were contacted by LE, interviewed (briefly), and instructed to destroy any crime scene photos they'd received.

******

The allegations in the P's Contempt motion "theorizes" that Baldwin had knowledge at the beginning of the leak process, had knowledge that it started early and was ongoing, and that Baldwin failed to alert the Court. The P provides zero evidence of Baldwin having this knowledge and bases this "theory" referring to a date that MW received an early draft of the Franks memo for review from Baldwin.

At the end of the P's Contempt motion ... we see sanctions demanded for ... murky/meaningless allegations such as the D going out business as usual and as sharing work product with the D's strategy consultant. Or for a single press release issued before the gag order and after a large number of prosecution press releases in the preceding 10 days.

Exactly where's the contempt here? The P can't name it ... b/c it's a classified?

The D has the opportunity to answer that question and these fact-unsupported allegations ... we're waiting for that response. (I'm guessing their answer ... won't be "classified".)

In the meantime ... I'm not sure I understand how any conclusion can be drawn relative to the guilt and lying and ethics violations of the D in this leaks matter.

One last point/observation:
For sometime now, we've seen McL and LE witnesses in this Allen case ... conducting aggressive investigations into the old Defense and their strategic documents. To me, the P seems laser-focused on the Westerman betrayal of Baldwin being some type of coverup ... . And the P has persisted in investigating his opposition counsel ... at the risk of creating the P's own ethical dilemmas/conflicts.

Why are the LE-witnesses to the Allen investigation now investigating Allen's attorneys? It is patently absurd, IMO. Could we see this P and LE from the P's Allen-witness list ... who have gone after the Defendant's Counsel and collecting evidence of the Defense's work product raised at trial ... be conflicted out of testifying against RA? Disqualifying LE testimony? Crazy to think about that - but what hot mess.

As Weineke points out, some of this stuff puts BOTH McL and LE in a position of being conflicted.

It all leaves me wondering what the strategy is behind wasting time with empty motions.
Is it an internal PR stunt? (As some consider the FM to be.)

JMHO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

So the family are continually being victimized and the judge is the evil witch of the west and here we have more excuses trying to excuse their actions.

It’s pathetic!!


MOO

The Murder Sheet folks pretty much agree with this.
I thought their podcast was very balanced.
I was most impressed that they recognized that this case had devolved into nothing but never ending court motions and filings and they saw no end in sight.
They went on to say that what the defense did was inexcusable….it harmed their client RA and exposed Libby and Abby’s families to more unnecessary pain. They also said it was disgusting how many discussions involving the leaks try to minimize the seriousness of the leaks and the effects on the victims’ families. They reiterate that the most forgotten people in all this are Libby, Abby, and RA.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Isn't there some other team working the leak case? I vaguely remember that - so it may not have been McL at all.

I went back and re-read it. He doesn't say who issued the SW or when it was issued. You're right, it may not have been him.

It's confusing when MW's case is being heard in one county and and everything else is in another.

 

[mrjitty]

Weineke commentary:

https://x.com/Wienekelo/status/1752408295053176865?s=20

This has been my understanding ... all of this is JMHO:

LE investigation had access to phones, computers, passwords, texts, forum activity of anyone involved in leak. Results of that investigation are under seal. McL levels allegations without providing facts, hiding names. ONLY LE investigation has the ability to assess when these leaks began, the source, and

Baldwin/Rozzi wrote a narrative report to the Court about the leak info they were given from Westerman - upon Westerman owning his betrayal to Baldwin. (IIRC, Baldwin told him to get a lawyer and cooperate. Westerman wrote his own affidavit and had it notorized; provided it to Baldwin.)

Westerman knew what Westerman knew. He told Baldwin he photographed and then shared crime scene photos w/ RF, and (IIRC), Westerman told Baldwin approximate dates/occasions he shared the crime scene photos. Whatever Westerman told Baldwin is reported by the D to the Court in the narrative provided to the Court and the P (Rozzi wrote this report, its on the docket and in the SCOIN submissions). In that report was the D's understanding of the timeframe when the crime scene materials in question were organized and on the table for D's depositions of LE witnesses.

Baldwin/Rozzi only knew what Westerman knew. They didn't examine his digital material; LE did.

The party that has information as to exact dates of the beginning of the leaks is the LE investigation of Westerman. MRC - Murder Sheet's "source" and the mass leaker - has cooperated and his ID is protected in the P's Contempt motion here.

We know from various you-tubers, including Murder Sheet, that end-receivers of the leaks were contacted by LE, interviewed (briefly), and instructed to destroy any crime scene photos they'd received.

******

The allegations in the P's Contempt motion "theorizes" that Baldwin had knowledge at the beginning of the leak process, had knowledge that it started early and was ongoing, and that Baldwin failed to alert the Court. The P provides zero evidence of Baldwin having this knowledge and bases this "theory" referring to a date that MW received an early draft of the Franks memo for review from Baldwin.

At the end of the P's Contempt motion ... we see sanctions demanded for ... murky/meaningless allegations such as the D going out business as usual and as sharing work product with the D's strategy consultant. Or for a single press release issued before the gag order and after a large number of prosecution press releases in the preceding 10 days.

Exactly where's the contempt here? The P can't name it ... b/c it's a classified?

The D has the opportunity to answer that question and these fact-unsupported allegations ... we're waiting for that response. (I'm guessing their answer ... won't be "classified".)

In the meantime ... I'm not sure I understand how any conclusion can be drawn relative to the guilt and lying and ethics violations of the D in this leaks matter.

One last point/observation:
For sometime now, we've seen McL and LE witnesses in this Allen case ... conducting aggressive investigations into the old Defense and their strategic documents. To me, the P seems laser-focused on the Westerman betrayal of Baldwin being some type of coverup ... . And the P has persisted in investigating his opposition counsel ... at the risk of creating the P's own ethical dilemmas/conflicts.

Why are the LE-witnesses to the Allen investigation now investigating Allen's attorneys? It is patently absurd, IMO. Could we see this P and LE from the P's Allen-witness list ... who have gone after the Defendant's Counsel and collecting evidence of the Defense's work product raised at trial ... be conflicted out of testifying against RA? Disqualifying LE testimony? Crazy to think about that - but what hot mess.

As Weineke points out, some of this stuff puts BOTH McL and LE in a position of being conflicted.

It all leaves me wondering what the strategy is behind wasting time with empty motions.
Is it an internal PR stunt? (As some consider the FM to be.)

JMHO

So MW is the defences strategy consultant now?

They said he was an old friend dropping by after work who snuck in and stole the materials.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

So MW is the defences strategy consultant now?

They said he was an old friend dropping by after work who snuck in and stole the materials.

If he was, they sure didn't claim him! They don't want to be looking at a multi million dollar lawsuit for damages to the victim's family. They are happy to take sanctions or whatever the court wants to throw at them as long as they can pin "theft" on MW. He has far less assets to go after.
AMO

 

[mrjitty]

I went back and re-read it. He doesn't say who issued the SW or when it was issued. You're right, it may not have been him.

It's confusing when MW's case is being heard in one county and and everything else is in another.

Yes. It’s quite possible McL has not seen the contents of the iCloud. Rather the other team has seen it and described what is in there.

 

[Emma Peel]

Isn't there some other team working the leak case? I vaguely remember that - so it may not have been McL at all.

Yes ... that was on my mind when checking in w/ you earlier; McL *shouldn't* work on Westerman investigation or case and (I'm guessing) can't have that discovery which is under seal, and if somehow he can (why?). He's just shared some of Westerman sealed evidence w/ public, brought it into ALLEN matter? Confusing.

Shouldn't the Westerman investigation be investigating Baldwin?
Oh wait. They did. Baldwin's the victim of theft.

IMO - and I'm going to admit in advance, I'm working from memory. This info can be verified in SCOIN and Docket filings (under Rozzi)

Email between D, P, Gull: Gull tasks McL to get after LE to investigate leaks.
Murder Sheet: MS Reported MRC to ISP. Holeman, IIRC. Holeman, ISP is LE witness for Allen case. Holeman kept McL in loop; McL waited for info from Holeman, sleepless nights, late email to Gull and the D providing what Holeman learned... (again these docs are exhibits on dockets of SCOIN and Allen)

Holeman took up the beginning of the leak investigation, interviewing (or attempting to interview) the big 3 in the leak (now a theft). At some point (unknown), upon determining Westerman to be the target for charges, the investigation was transferred to another district.

Holeman was waiting in court with a group of other LE the day of the in-chambers remove-the-D.

Again, there's the burning question is why it's "okay" for the P and the LE-witness in ALLEN to *themselves* go after the opposing D counsel in ALLEN, mining their work product and their strategy consultant to bring charges against them?

We don't know who arranged for MRC to be "unnamed" in all of this. He did pony up first, after pushed to ISP (dragged?) by MS, per their storyline.

Apologies for the shorthand, I'm short of hand and time. Thanks.

JMHO

 

[mrjitty]

IMO - and I'm going to admit in advance, I'm working from memory. This info can be verified in SCOIN and Docket filings (under Rozzi)

Email between D, P, Gull: Gull tasks McL to get after LE to investigate leaks.
Murder Sheet: MS Reported MRC to ISP. Holeman, IIRC. Holeman, ISP is LE witness for Allen case. Holeman kept McL in loop; McL waited for info from Holeman, sleepless nights, late email to Gull and the D providing what Holeman learned... (again these docs are exhibits on dockets of SCOIN and Allen)

Holeman took up the beginning of the leak investigation, interviewing (or attempting to interview) the big 3 in the leak. At some point (unknown), upon determining Westerman to be the target for charges, the investigation was transferred to another district.

Holeman was waiting in court with a group of other LE the day of the in-chambers remove-the-D.

We don't know who arranged for MRC to be "unnamed" in all of this.

Apologies for the shorthand, I'm short of hand and time. Thanks.

JMHO

Thanks! I had a vague memory it had been passed to a different team.