Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #105

[Boxer]

He also said they were onto something early on didn't he? I am wondering if they are looking again at internet connections or anything else like that. Initially LE said something like (paraphrase) "watch what your kids are up to". Could they be re-examining contacts if they are going back to a 2 day old sketch from the very beginning of the investigation?
MOO.

MOO just thought about this, since the sketch drawn two days after murders, the witness reported immediately, police had to take a little time set up a meeting with the police artist .
MOO that lends a lot of credibility to that witness. I wonder why looking for that individual wasn't the primary investigation?

As I recall there was the immediate "know what your kids are doing" -- then the investigation quickly moved to Indiana Packers whose employees were scrutinized, and a Bicycle Bridge Road house searched. Road block stops to ask residents if they saw anything unusual. After that on to the RSO's and people turned in by tips.

 

[allboys]

I agree that he probably had a vehicle on the dirt road / driveway or at the cemetery. I wonder if he could have ridden a motorcycle. It would be easier to hide. Plus, in the image (that discussion thread is closed) it appears to me like he might have some sort of facemask / baclava pulled down around his neck.

something like this perhaps.

You know, I never thought about his possible way of transportation (motorcycle) as being the reason he may have been wearing a scarf/balaclava. Good thinking.

 

[Boxer]

You know, I never thought about his possible way of transportation (motorcycle) as being the reason he may have been wearing a scarf/balaclava. Good thinking.

I hope they know how he got out of there. At first they said 'he couldn't fly" meaning they didn't see the evidence of his way out. I read that the entire place was scrutinized inch by inch, but eliminating the evidence left behind from a community search made it difficult.
Still, MOO BG getting off that flat must have left some prints.


MOO one last idea, maybe a cellphone was left in the vehicle parked at CPS. After exhausting all cellphone data going up and down the roads and highway, and cells of the people on the trail, they may have been left with a cell phone that stopped pinging in the Delphi area, and didn't resume until later, or if ever.

 

[BigTexas]

I hope that maybe they at least know his shoe size. Still praying for an arrest in this case.

 

[sunshineray]

Welcome to Websleuths! Here’s the link and the case #s. If the link is expired, within each of the files you’ll notice “Order issued” appearing in blue which will open the document seeking the respective info from Google(Abby) and Apple(Libby).

Case Search - MyCase

In Re: the Estate of Abigail Joyce Williams
Case Number 08C01-1802-ES-000003
Expired Document Link - MyCase


In Re: the Estate of LIBERTY ROSE LYNN GERMAN
Case Number 08C01-1710-ES-000002
Expired Document Link - MyCase

That second "order issued" pdf on Libby's case page, the one about Libby's Apple records, just comes up a blank screen. Does this happen for anyone else?

 

[JnRyan]

I hope that maybe they at least know his shoe size. Still praying for an arrest in this case.

The more I think about this the more I believe LE has his shoe size. There couldn't have been very many people cross that creek that February day with temps in the 40's or even 50's. There was likely a cluster of tracks on the bank of the creek and one larger set of tracks with Abigail's and Liberty's was probably found. I'll bet this is one item of evidence LE is not releasing.

 

[sunshineray]

This is what I too envisioned long ago. That BG might not have been seen much because of the way he got to the head of the bridge to go across. But where did the girls encounter the "creepy" guy?

My guess is they noticed him either standing in the woods, off the trail, on their way to the bridge or possible on the their beginning side of the bridge, off to either side in the woods.

 

[JnRyan]

Two years and a huge PC announcing a new direction with new info. More tips, but no real movement that we know of. I tend to think this is a stranger. He saw Abigail and Liberty dropped off and probably said to himself, "What about those two?" He may have even looked at other possibilities and these two girls might have even been his secondary choice until he saw them go across the bridge alone. Most murders are committed by someone known to the victim and those are not as difficult to solve as those murders committed by a stranger.

I still believe he is familiar with the trail AND the surrounding areas. He has had reason to be there in the past - either as a resident of or frequent visitor to Delphi. Sometime in the months before the murders he probably made one or two trips to the trail, the creek and property across the creek. I wonder if his scouting trips included a drive down the road in front of the cemetery and he knew what kind of car the property owner, Ron Logan, drove. That day he may have driven down that same road, noted RL's vehicle was gone, then turned around to park at the abandoned building.

 

[cluciano63]

Jmo, as with many unsolved murders, the one tip is who the guy is...

 

[JnRyan]

My guess is they noticed him either standing in the woods, off the trail, on their way to the bridge or possible on the their beginning side of the bridge, off to either side in the woods.

That scenario plays over and over in my mind. That plus he was probably moving too fast with vision either focused straight ahead or behind him. That is, he wasn't looking around and enjoying the scenery. A quick walk with a purpose that appeared to be something other than enjoying nature.

 

[JnRyan]

Jmo, as with many unsolved murders, the one tip is who the guy is...

They may have already received it very early on, but his appearance didn't match the sketch in use at the time. The task force consisted of many detectives from all across the area. Some of these detectives had little or no homicide experience and their agencies thought this was a chance to get some experience, per a couple of media articles I read. Regardless of experience, many LE have come and gone in the two plus years. Was a LE member assigned to the one tip and wrote it up as cleared or at least highly unlikely? How many times have we heard of witness coming forward years later and state that LE either did not interview or appear interested. In the case of the Short Family murders in Henry County VA, one witness came forward almost a decade later and asked why no one followed up on her tip she called in right after the murders. It turned out she may have actually have seen the killer.

ISP 1st Sergeant Holeman and sheriff may have reviewed all of the statements that resulted from the tips. But 40+K tips means a lot of statements to go through.

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

Two years and a huge PC announcing a new direction with new info. More tips, but no real movement that we know of. I tend to think this is a stranger. He saw Abigail and Liberty dropped off and probably said to himself, "What about those two?" He may have even looked at other possibilities and these two girls might have even been his secondary choice until he saw them go across the bridge alone. Most murders are committed by someone known to the victim and those are not as difficult to solve as those murders committed by a stranger.

I still believe he is familiar with the trail AND the surrounding areas. He has had reason to be there in the past - either as a resident of or frequent visitor to Delphi. Sometime in the months before the murders he probably made one or two trips to the trail, the creek and property across the creek. I wonder if his scouting trips included a drive down the road in front of the cemetery and he knew what kind of car the property owner, Ron Logan, drove. That day he may have driven down that same road, noted RL's vehicle was gone, then turned around to park at the abandoned building.

Maybe it WAS one of the recce trips. Fully tooled up but not clinically parked up.The opportunity that presented itself was just to good and tempting to miss.

Spec and Opin

 

[PaulaDC]

The more I think about this the more I believe LE has his shoe size. There couldn't have been very many people cross that creek that February day with temps in the 40's or even 50's. There was likely a cluster of tracks on the bank of the creek and one larger set of tracks with Abigail's and Liberty's was probably found. I'll bet this is one item of evidence LE is not releasing.

Unless BG was wearing someone else's shoes like his clothing possibly? Moo

 

[MistyWaters]

MOO just thought about this, since the sketch drawn two days after murders, the witness reported immediately, police had to take a little time set up a meeting with the police artist .
MOO that lends a lot of credibility to that witness. I wonder why looking for that individual wasn't the primary investigation?

As I recall there was the immediate "know what your kids are doing" -- then the investigation quickly moved to Indiana Packers whose employees were scrutinized, and a Bicycle Bridge Road house searched. Road block stops to ask residents if they saw anything unusual. After that on to the RSO's and people turned in by tips.

From what I recall although I don’t remember which interview or PC because there’s been quite a few, LE stated nobody saw the suspect on the trail. We do know LE have never said precisely where or when the person depicted in sketch one was sighted, nor sketch two.

The most we know is sketch one was sighted “near” the trail, possibly at a time close to the murders. The witness who reported the man depicted by sketch two “saw something they felt should be reported”. It wouldn’t be out if the realm of possibility that person didn’t see the suspect anywhere near the trail near the time of the murders but instead saw something suspicious about this person the day after the murders, the day the bodies were found. It could be anything from somebody observing the search from a distance to somebody burning items in a public campground with fire pits.

If no witness saw the murderer on the trail, LE is left with sightings of unidentified individuals who witnesses believe, for whatever reason, might’ve been the murderer but as with sketch one, might prove not to be.

Carter is already backing away from the newly released sketch being “the face” of the murderer which I think is a good thing. What’s most important is LE gets that the “one tip” with information to link with murder, not what the person looks like because it’s doubtful the person now appears exactly the same as a “ballpark likeness” of a sketch drawn more than two years ago.

 

[Boxer]

Age range is the major change.
Possibly someone will look back and think, I dismissed noticing so and so's behavior because he is only 20, but if I knew the right age range, I would have called in. And then call in now.

 

[MistyWaters]

Age range is the major change.
Possibly someone will look back and think, I dismissed noticing so and so's behavior because he is only 20, but if I knew the right age range, I would have called in. And then call in now.

Good point, by the release of the recent sketch LE is able to expand the age range beyond tips they’ve received after July/17, when the older guy sketch was released.

But for the first five months there was no sketch with a specified age range. Looking back, there was such a feeling of optimism that Libby’s photo would solve the case in short order. I’m certain LE and the families must wake up some mornings absolutely baffled by how the murderer hasn’t yet been identified more than two years later. I know it sure baffles me.

Feb 22, 2017
“....The way Carter, the ISP superintendent, laid it out, the community shouldn’t hold back.

“Is it a family member? Is it a neighbor? Is it an acquaintance? Is it an associate?” Carter asked, running down a check list of things to weigh. “Or maybe that one guy that was over at that one place that was just kind of not right. Maybe it’s his jeans. Maybe it’s his jacket or sweatshirt. Maybe it’s his shirt tail. Maybe it’s his posture. Maybe it’s the right hand in his pocket.”

Police now are calling this man a suspect in the Feb. 13 killing of Liberty German and Abigail Williams. He is not in custody, police said. (Photo: Provided)

Greg Massa, an FBI assistant special agent working the case, said with the FBI behavioral analysis unit came up with “behavioral indicators” the day of the killings, “to include reasons, at the time, for why they missed work or they were out sick or they canceled an appointment at the last minute.”

“At the time, it seemed plausible, but it no longer holds water,” Massa said.

Massa laid out other clues over the past nine days.

“They may have traveled on a moment’s notice when they otherwise may not have,” Massa said. “They started abusing drugs or alcohol, where they didn’t have a proclivity to do that before. And they’ve become increasingly anxious. They’ve changed their appearance. They’ve trimmed their hair or shaved a beard. … If something doesn’t seem quite right, we would implore the public go ahead and call the tip line.”

Carter doubled down on that.

“Libby and Abby need you,” Carter said. “Please do not rationalize tips away – rationalize what you think might not be important away – by thinking, ‘He would never do that to a human being.’ Or think, ‘What I know doesn’t matter.’”

And that was the third takeaway, repeated often during Wednesday’s plea for the public’s help.

Somebody knows. Somebody has to know....”
https://www.jconline.com/story/opin.../bangert-clue-hero-delphi-homicides/98254002/

 

[gipsypup]

A lot of focus is now on this BG being a local , but what if he doesn’t live there full time but visits often or spent a lot of time in Delphi in the past and has family & friend connections there.
Has anyone discussed Abby spending summer weeks in Michigan with her grandpa. She apparently attended a week of church camp there every year and her mom is from there.
It’s only three hours away from Delphi .
There was recently an arrest of a 30 year old teacher in Grand Rapids for child *advertiser censored* and soliciting teens.
Without posting his pic , it TRULY resembles the NBG sketch . I just hope the ISP are aware of these arrests in the surrounding areas and check them out ! JMO .

 

[cluciano63]

Was thinking about the two weirdest men in my large apartment complex...both have lived here at least as long as I have so 5 years or more...and I could not begin to guess their ages. Either could be late 20’s to 40’s as far as I can tell. Both kind of lumpish in their own ways, neither very memorable except for being weird, imo. One stands outside of his apartment, just staring. The other lives with his mother and even when he is leaving for five minutes to check the mail, I hear him call back “I love you” to his mom lol. Neither seems to work, or at least they always seem to be home.

(i walk my dog a lot here so tend to catch bits and pieces, it seems...)

Anyway...if challeged, I would be hard pressed to assign an age.

 

[FleurQualia]

My biggest fear for this case is that it will never be solved. My second biggest fear is that it will take years for it to be solved. My hope is that I am wrong on both counts.

I feel disheartened that two years later LE is still pleading for that "one tip". They have tons more information than we do, and still haven't been able to crack the case.

This case has way more evidence than most stranger crimes do. Yet we are still completely in the dark about who BG is.

 

[somequestions]

Many people were aware of the bridge before the murders, but had never seen it in person. Railroad and industrial artifact fans from far and wide knew about it. It's the 2nd tallest bridge here in Indiana, and just happens to be a very old railroad trestle/viaduct which has withstood time, and I wouldn't doubt there have been efforts to have it torn down.

I've driven right around the area in question, the bridge is not easy to find just driving by there. The spot where the girls were dropped off is easy to miss, even driving at 35 mph on C.R. 300. Considering the latest PC, it appears that LE believe the vehicle seen at the old CPS building is involved in the case. So, the perp/BG would have known about the trail head by the Freedom Bridge over IN 25, and would have known that if he parked at the abandoned building, he could walk a short distance, get on the main trail, and could walk a ways and be at the bridge. Why didn't he park on the other side of IN 25? We all know the answer. Everything about BG's movements make sense to me, the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. Each section of his path(s) that day scream "efficient", to me. Quick, no wasted time or energy. No reason to waste time walking longer distances, unless he was going out of his way to conceal himself, perhaps after the murders.

Not only do I believe he knew where the bridge is located, he'd timed every part of his plan/fantasy/what have you. I would venture to guess BG timed the walk from the trail head to the bridge, the walk across the 850 foot bridge, and the walk from the SE end to the creek, across from the CS, which is a short distance covered in a matter of several minutes, according to YouTube videos I've seen. The distance from the SE end to the CS is much shorter than the length of the bridge. The distance from the slight bend in the trail, to the NW end of the bridge, is maybe 800 feet. So BG had to A) Get the girls off and away from the SE end of the bridge, and B) Down to the creek, as quickly as possible. That way, line-of-sight, nobody would have seen the group in the gorge, even one person or a group if they were on the trail.

JMO

-FD

I agree that one aspect of the case that is hard to understand is where the person who killed Abigail Williams and Liberty German parked at the Monon High Bridge area?

As for movements that day what I am about to write is my opinion.

I think after the suspect took control of the girls he marched them across Deer Creek because he was thinking like a searcher and being proactive about witnesses. Who is going to search for Abby and Libby by crossing a creek without proper shoes? They would get all wet. The creek provides a boundary for some privacy. I think when he was done with committing the crime he may have even walked back across the creek leaving the boundary between him and his crime. As long as nobody crosses the creek after him or notices his wet shoes/pants while leaving no one is going to put it together. It made me wonder if the sketches are from witnesses who think they saw the suspect entering or leaving the Monon High Bridge area?

Does anyone else agree? I have seen so many others write that they think the girls were found across the creek for other reasons like trying to run away, etc. I try to look at it from a criminal psychology perspective.

In a case like this when you have so many tips the problem is that you have to determine which ones are important. The tip to solve this case is probably in the pile somewhere. Someone just needs to find it.