Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #105

[k-mac]

Kelsi german was at crime con too.
I watched her do a live podcast (not really case specific at all ) with GH. such a beautiful kind calm girl. I see her and libby so so alike!

 

[mtnlites]

I'm trying to play catch up a bit. Thanks for the messages and comments. We're still in the hospital, but we're in a different place than what we were in last week so that's at least a change. Hopefully be able to go home soon. I don't feel like getting on the computer much right now because there are other things going on and I'm ill myself so I'm just going to make one big post. Sorry for being wordy. Normally I'd try to break this up and space it out a bit.

I still think the girls were randomly chosen. I think he went there with the intention of hurting someone and that it was just a wrong place at the wrong time kind of deal. There may have been some planning on his part, even if just in a general sense, but I also think he had a great deal of luck on his side. Not all unplanned crimes end up in frenzied, chaotic messes. Considering that this crime took place outside, the environment may have lent itself to a more pristine murder scene: no pictures to knock off the walls, no furniture to knock over, no broken glass, etc.

JP in the Jayme Closs case had both planning and luck on his side. On the one hand, he went so far as to shave his head, use a weapon that was difficult to trace, and remove the light on his car, but he was also extremely lucky in that if he'd been just a couple of minutes slower, if her dad had shot at him, or if the oncoming police cruiser had paid more attention to him, he'd have been caught on his way out. Or if one of them had fought back and gotten his skin under their nails or his blood.

As for why Abby/Libby and not someone else that day? It may have been timing. The other girls who were there may have been within closer range to other people and he didn't want to risk it. When he reached the end of the bridge with A&L, he knew that there wasn't anyone behind him for at least another 5-7 minutes because he'd have been able to see the length of the bridge. So right then and there he knew he'd have at least a small window of flex time to get them "down the hill." Perhaps he'd surveyed the area moments before and knew that there wasn't anyone under the bridge at that time, too. I think he underestimated the ease in which he could attack these two little girls. His ego probably thought hey, they're just kids and this will be easy. They did not, however, make it easy for him. Good.

I'm not convinced at all that anyone's afraid to turn him in. At least, I don't think they're fearful for what HE might do to them. Maybe they also have some sketchy things in THEIR past and now that they've seen LE arrest people for various crimes while doing interviews in this case they don't want to draw attention to themselves. (In fact, if I have any criticism about how the crime has been handled, that's it.)

More than likely, though, IMO someone has either turned him in and the tip somehow got buried, LE shrugged it off for some kind of reason (no idea why, but perhaps for a good alibi), or the people in his life are just having trouble connecting the pieces. LE released Ted Bundy's first name, description, and vehicle and some of his friends even joked with HIM about it. I'm wondering if it's one of the first two and that's why LE is regrouping and looking back at what happened in the early stages. Perhaps they've realized that they DID miss something in one of those tips in the beginning. They certainly reverted back to the OG sketch, so...

 

[tresir2012]

@mtnlites , Good to hear from you and hope you're home soon.

Agree with your post and the way this case has gone is strange. Going back to the beginning and the mention of pristine reminds me of the landowner search warrant and his white pick-up that was seized. I still do wonder about the significance of that and if someone borrowed it.

 

[mrtnira]

@mtnlites , Good to hear from you and hope you're home soon.

Agree with your post and the way this case has gone is strange. Going back to the beginning and the mention of pristine reminds me of the landowner search warrant and his white pick-up that was seized. I still do wonder about the significance of that and if someone borrowed it.

I think seizing the pick-up might have been connected to the arrest of the land owner for violations of conditions of parole. Apparently, his parole was related to previously driving while under the influence. As part of his personal alibi he told the police he went to a bar....

 

[Angelcat13]

If it's truly something only they know, then when it's revealed to the perp it will be obvious who squealed.

And he may not be able to do anything himself at that point, but he also may have allies who will engage in payback.

JMO

edited:typo

IMO this guy has very few “friends” - let alone anyone that would seek retribution for someone providing information that would lead to an arrest and conviction.

 

[Angelcat13]

I think so, yes!
Maybe, LE has to search for a cocky type of young man, who has become even much more cocky since the killing. How easy to find him with this description.

I get the feeling he is like a chameleon - he knows how a person SHOULD act in certain situations and is able to adjust his persona to whatever situation he is in.

Most people are so busy with their own lives they take him on face value. However, there are probably several people who are more perceptive who get an uncomfortable feeling around him - like something is “off”. But he’s so good at appearing like he SHOULD that even these perceptive people can’t quite take that extra step to believe he could do this.

They likely feel he is odd, off, different, fake, socially awkward, etc but not that he’s dangerous.

 

[Angelcat13]

This is a really good point. If we're concerned that witnesses in Delphi may be saying to themselves, "well I'm not really sure," and hesitating to let someone in charge know about a person they have misgivings over, we don't want to do the same thing here. A moderator will be able to sift out odd-seeming posts and notify appropriate authorities if something really is suspicious, as they will have more access to any given poster's info and posting history.

edit: duplicate phrasing

What is the best way to alert a moderator if we have concerns about a poster? I am sure they get inundated with “alerts” because there are so many cases/threads that they can’t respond to everyone that messages them, but how might someone send an alert and know it was at least received?

 

[HEY YOU!]

If the DNA found on or near the bodies was that of someone who lived with Libby or was a frequent visitor, they may need more evidence to convict. A good defense attorney could possibly explain it away.

Also, why do I keep hearing about a person dressed in black?

 

[Angelcat13]

ETA: It seems like the information on the vehicle LE was looking for is no longer on any of the wanted posters.

I would love to know why.

 

[Angelcat13]

I'm trying to play catch up a bit. Thanks for the messages and comments. We're still in the hospital, but we're in a different place than what we were in last week so that's at least a change. Hopefully be able to go home soon. I don't feel like getting on the computer much right now because there are other things going on and I'm ill myself so I'm just going to make one big post. Sorry for being wordy. Normally I'd try to break this up and space it out a bit.

I still think the girls were randomly chosen. I think he went there with the intention of hurting someone and that it was just a wrong place at the wrong time kind of deal. There may have been some planning on his part, even if just in a general sense, but I also think he had a great deal of luck on his side. Not all unplanned crimes end up in frenzied, chaotic messes. Considering that this crime took place outside, the environment may have lent itself to a more pristine murder scene: no pictures to knock off the walls, no furniture to knock over, no broken glass, etc.

JP in the Jayme Closs case had both planning and luck on his side. On the one hand, he went so far as to shave his head, use a weapon that was difficult to trace, and remove the light on his car, but he was also extremely lucky in that if he'd been just a couple of minutes slower, if her dad had shot at him, or if the oncoming police cruiser had paid more attention to him, he'd have been caught on his way out. Or if one of them had fought back and gotten his skin under their nails or his blood.

As for why Abby/Libby and not someone else that day? It may have been timing. The other girls who were there may have been within closer range to other people and he didn't want to risk it. When he reached the end of the bridge with A&L, he knew that there wasn't anyone behind him for at least another 5-7 minutes because he'd have been able to see the length of the bridge. So right then and there he knew he'd have at least a small window of flex time to get them "down the hill." Perhaps he'd surveyed the area moments before and knew that there wasn't anyone under the bridge at that time, too. I think he underestimated the ease in which he could attack these two little girls. His ego probably thought hey, they're just kids and this will be easy. They did not, however, make it easy for him. Good.

I'm not convinced at all that anyone's afraid to turn him in. At least, I don't think they're fearful for what HE might do to them. Maybe they also have some sketchy things in THEIR past and now that they've seen LE arrest people for various crimes while doing interviews in this case they don't want to draw attention to themselves. (In fact, if I have any criticism about how the crime has been handled, that's it.)

More than likely, though, IMO someone has either turned him in and the tip somehow got buried, LE shrugged it off for some kind of reason (no idea why, but perhaps for a good alibi), or the people in his life are just having trouble connecting the pieces. LE released Ted Bundy's first name, description, and vehicle and some of his friends even joked with HIM about it. I'm wondering if it's one of the first two and that's why LE is regrouping and looking back at what happened in the early stages. Perhaps they've realized that they DID miss something in one of those tips in the beginning. They certainly reverted back to the OG sketch, so...

Thanks for taking your time to post when you have so much else going on. Continuing to keep you, your daughter and family in my thoughts and prayers.

 

[gregjrichards]

What is the best way to alert a moderator if we have concerns about a poster? I am sure they get inundated with “alerts” because there are so many cases/threads that they can’t respond to everyone that messages them, but how might someone send an alert and know it was at least received?

You should start a conversation with Tricia or one of the moderators like SillyBilly or Darling136 explaining your concerns they are always happy to help.

 

[tresir2012]

I think seizing the pick-up might have been connected to the arrest of the land owner for violations of conditions of parole. Apparently, his parole was related to previously driving while under the influence. As part of his personal alibi he told the police he went to a bar....

I thought it was going to the dump and getting caught on camera did that. He went to buy tropical fish the day of the murders in Lafayette and we don't know how he got there IIRC. It was a later date when he went to a bar I believe. My thought is someone may have driven him to Lafayette, someone who had access to the car, which he wasn't supposed to drive himself (although he did, for the dump trip). That was part of why he was arrested initially too, about lying. Now LE are saying the new sketch is the one and they are going right back to that timeframe, that may be the something they were onto early on. MOO.

 

[HEY YOU!]

I thought it was going to the dump and getting caught on camera did that. He went to buy tropical fish the day of the murders in Lafayette and we don't know how he got there IIRC. It was a later date when he went to a bar I believe. My thought is someone may have driving him to Lafayette, someone who had access to the car, which he wasn't supposed to drive himself (although he did, for the dump trip). That was part of why he was arrested initially too, about lying. Now LE are saying the new sketch is the one and they are going right back to that timeframe, that may be the something they were onto early on. MOO.

So the homeowner does or does not have a solid alibi for that day?

 

[Cutiekitty]

If the DNA found on or near the bodies was that of someone who lived with Libby or was a frequent visitor, they may need more evidence to convict. A good defense attorney could possibly explain it away.

Also, why do I keep hearing about a person dressed in black?

The sweatshirts/jackets they were wearing were borrowed (per KG in the Infamous Indy podcast)so that could cause problems too.

 

[Massman33]

What if Flannel Shirt Guy saw the BG ( and he knew him real well-Friend, Relative). So he makes up a false witness of a generic 40-50 something, tells his friend to get outta dodge & then tells Libby's father who was picking them up that he saw/heard a couple arguing...Laying the groundwork for the discovery of the bodies..Thinking if he mentioned a couple fighting, everyone would assume the male in the couple got even angrier and killed the girl(s). IMO this is the alibi/witness account they need to break.

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

Memorial grows as police continue search for Delphi girls' killer

Only Been following here since the 2nd anniversary in Feb. Pretty much up to speed.

However, this article from the early hours of Feb18th 2017 mentions something Ive not read or come across before. LE returning to the CS(?)/Trails(?) Cemetery(?) on the 17th for ' about 30mins'.

Now, Im assuming LE hadnt just abandoned the area in the preceeding day or two, so was just wondering if you guys could clarify for me why it was noteworthy enough to report a return, if we know why they returned etc?! Tia guys.

Ps. Im just sort of trying to go back to beginning as a couple of recent posters have done.

Wondered if the return was based on a tip? Also, wasnt it around the same time as the YBG sketch was done? Linked?

SvS

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

Memorial grows as police continue search for Delphi girls' killer

Only Been following here since the 2nd anniversary in Feb. Pretty much up to speed.

However, this article from the early hours of Feb18th 2017 mentions something Ive not read or come across before. LE returning to the CS(?)/Trails(?) Cemetery(?) on the 17th for ' about 30mins'.

Now, Im assuming LE hadnt just abandoned the area in the preceeding day or two, so was just wondering if you guys could clarify for me why it was noteworthy enough to report a return, if we know why they returned etc?! Tia guys.

Ps. Im just sort of trying to go back to beginning as a couple of recent posters have done.

Wondered if the return was based on a tip? Also, wasnt it around the same time as the YBG sketch was done? Linked?

SvS

Ps. Linked as in ...could the witness who gave the account leading to the YBG sketch being done around this date, also be the reason for a tip that led to return?


Eta word. 'Sketch'

 

[tresir2012]

So the homeowner does or does not have a solid alibi for that day?

Only LE will know that. E.g. if he had a time receipt for the fish IMO.
Am only bringing it up because LE are now saying they were onto something early on, have reduced the age of the suspect, have issued a young sketch and mentioned a vehicle.

 

[tresir2012]

The sweatshirts/jackets they were wearing were borrowed (per KG in the Infamous Indy podcast)so that could cause problems too.

Very good point. I think that would put a lot of confusion into the mix. Also, can any posters remember the crime scene floor (leaves, twigs etc.) being removed for forensics? I can't find anything on it now.

 

[JnRyan]

I'm trying to play catch up a bit. Thanks for the messages and comments. We're still in the hospital, but we're in a different place than what we were in last week so that's at least a change. Hopefully be able to go home soon. I don't feel like getting on the computer much right now because there are other things going on and I'm ill myself so I'm just going to make one big post. Sorry for being wordy. Normally I'd try to break this up and space it out a bit.

I still think the girls were randomly chosen. I think he went there with the intention of hurting someone and that it was just a wrong place at the wrong time kind of deal. There may have been some planning on his part, even if just in a general sense, but I also think he had a great deal of luck on his side. Not all unplanned crimes end up in frenzied, chaotic messes. Considering that this crime took place outside, the environment may have lent itself to a more pristine murder scene: no pictures to knock off the walls, no furniture to knock over, no broken glass, etc.

JP in the Jayme Closs case had both planning and luck on his side. On the one hand, he went so far as to shave his head, use a weapon that was difficult to trace, and remove the light on his car, but he was also extremely lucky in that if he'd been just a couple of minutes slower, if her dad had shot at him, or if the oncoming police cruiser had paid more attention to him, he'd have been caught on his way out. Or if one of them had fought back and gotten his skin under their nails or his blood.

As for why Abby/Libby and not someone else that day? It may have been timing. The other girls who were there may have been within closer range to other people and he didn't want to risk it. When he reached the end of the bridge with A&L, he knew that there wasn't anyone behind him for at least another 5-7 minutes because he'd have been able to see the length of the bridge. So right then and there he knew he'd have at least a small window of flex time to get them "down the hill." Perhaps he'd surveyed the area moments before and knew that there wasn't anyone under the bridge at that time, too. I think he underestimated the ease in which he could attack these two little girls. His ego probably thought hey, they're just kids and this will be easy. They did not, however, make it easy for him. Good.

I'm not convinced at all that anyone's afraid to turn him in. At least, I don't think they're fearful for what HE might do to them. Maybe they also have some sketchy things in THEIR past and now that they've seen LE arrest people for various crimes while doing interviews in this case they don't want to draw attention to themselves. (In fact, if I have any criticism about how the crime has been handled, that's it.)

More than likely, though, IMO someone has either turned him in and the tip somehow got buried, LE shrugged it off for some kind of reason (no idea why, but perhaps for a good alibi), or the people in his life are just having trouble connecting the pieces. LE released Ted Bundy's first name, description, and vehicle and some of his friends even joked with HIM about it. I'm wondering if it's one of the first two and that's why LE is regrouping and looking back at what happened in the early stages. Perhaps they've realized that they DID miss something in one of those tips in the beginning. They certainly reverted back to the OG sketch, so...

Some of my thoughts on this are along this same line. It sounds like things are improving on home front. I'm glad to hear that.