Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #112

[moonlessnight]

so assuming they have good DNA, he is not in CODIS.

That was a auto correct mishap. I typed ample. My stupid phone thought smoke was more appropriate. Smh. So no.. I meant they were able to recover a valid sample

 

[BradB]

It's not any of you. I understand everybody means well but when I come back here every so often it just seems it's the same regurgitated information and theories.

In order to really get down to the bottom of things a real discussion has to take place regarding the families, friends, close associates of these two girls at the time of the murders BUT it's against the rules here. So I'm not sure what anybody can do to really solve this case. Everybody will continue to go in circles here.

 

[susiQ]

It's not any of you. I understand everybody means well but when I come back here every so often it just seems it's the same regurgitated information and theories.

In order to really get down to the bottom of things a real discussion has to take place regarding the families, friends, close associates of these two girls at the time of the murders BUT it's against the rules here. So I'm not sure what anybody can do to really solve this case. Everybody will continue to go in circles here.

Even if we spilled everything we know about those things, WE are not going to solve the case regardless and could find ourselves to be false accusers of innocent people even if they have a "history" of criminal acts. So, there's a reason we can't discuss those things on a public forum. WE are not in a position to surveil, access electronic data of possible suspects, run DNA and other means LE employ to rule people in or out of the equation. If you notice someone's comments lean toward your line of thinking, by all means have a private convo!

 

[BradB]

I'm just frustrated we sit here without any new information or arrests.

Its stressful but I bet when it's all said and done one day we will learn the perp was known to them or one.

 

[Charlot123]

It's not any of you. I understand everybody means well but when I come back here every so often it just seems it's the same regurgitated information and theories.

In order to really get down to the bottom of things a real discussion has to take place regarding the families, friends, close associates of these two girls at the time of the murders BUT it's against the rules here. So I'm not sure what anybody can do to really solve this case. Everybody will continue to go in circles here.

@BradB, it is against the rules here, but it is not against the rules in other SMS. If you so wish.

I do believe that Libby had 6th sense. It is not about the video. I bet she could feel if someone was watching her, secretly observing her. If the BG was someone she used to know, she’d recognize him. So I assume it was someone who followed her on SM.

I never expected we could solve this case. Whether the LE can solve it, I don’t know. I am still not sure they have DNA. The autopsy was local, and the complexity of the case, on a scale of 1-100, is probably 1000. If DNA exists, however, I would like to know a couple of things,

1) has it been submitted to Parabon?
2) is it in Gedmatch?
3) are there any relatives found? It can’t be none. Seriously. I have problems with Gedmatch, for obvious reasons, yet even I have matches.
4) if there are no relatives, have they run ancestry on the DNA? It might simply be non-American. If so, try approaching the country that might match the ancestry and find cousins there.
5) try other open-source websites.
6) Run through Promethease - that won’t match it with anyone but can give you some information about the person what will come in handy, such as blood group, etc.

Just talk to geneticists and genealogists...they will have some better ideas.

Indiana is 6.6 mln. People move. Don’t assume the dude is truly from Delphi. And don’t get stuck on one POI because it was the mistake done before, in other cases.

 

[Yemelyan]

This can happen, of course. I thought from the get-go that BG could be an adoptee, or a non-paternal event, or simply the result of something like embryo donation. However, this would not have precluded them (the Parabon, or other similar company) from finding biological half-siblings or siblings, and building a tree. These days, adoptions are open, and usually do not preclude finding the "common ancestor", and then, the descendants.

It is another thing if BG did ancestry test and found out he was adopted (like, no match with his sister, or cousins). This might have been a huge stressor for him. Usually people accept it well, I always support adoptees, but for very few, it might be a trauma.

Coming back to colon cancer - honestly, who doesn't carry genes for it? Colon cancer is common, but it is screenable (colonoscopy). It is another thing if the person carries the genes for familial polyposis (Gartner's syndrome). That is a much more serious condition, leading to early colon cancer.

Parkinson's is not a horrible thing. Tons of meds. And even transplants of substantia nigra, but not in this country because it is embryonic material.

BTW, they did a study here showing that even knowledge about being the carrier for ApoE4 (gene for Alzheimer's) did not cause anxiety in patients. Their first reaction was, "so, what do I need to do to delay the onset?" So I am all for knowing own genome.

It's off topic for this thread so this is all I'll say about it....I'm not talking about whether a disease can be successfully treated, or whether it is common. I'm talking about whether insurance companies could essentially exclude you from receiving the treatments available because they determine you are a bad genetic risk or treatments cost too much. As I said, in other countries with different healthcare delivery systems this worry may not exist. Here, and under this current administration, it does worry people or if you are not worried, you should be.

To your other point about adoption and how it may or, in your opinion, may not muddy the waters of familial DNA searches. Adoption is one way to could grow to adulthood and not be linked to your heritage. The more common way is when your parents have unknown affairs or children out of wedlock and may not themselves know or care to know who the actual father is. I personally know of two people in their thirties/forties who found out just this year (after being married with kids of their own) that the men they thought were their bio dads...are not. So imagine you are a forensic genealogist compiling a family tree and you are looking for an 18-40 year old man within the Smith family line. But no one seems to match who is in the right age bracket. Could that be because somewhere along the paternal line - and maybe not even recently - a man named Jones raised a Smith child and only Mrs. Jones knew or suspected this?

 

[Charlot123]

It's off topic for this thread so this is all I'll say about it....I'm not talking about whether a disease can be successfully treated, or whether it is common. I'm talking about whether insurance companies could essentially exclude you from receiving the treatments available because they determine you are a bad genetic risk or treatments cost too much. As I said, in other countries with different healthcare delivery systems this worry may not exist. Here, and under this current administration, it does worry people or if you are not worried, you should be.

To your other point about adoption and how it may or, in your opinion, may not muddy the waters of familial DNA searches. Adoption is one way to could grow to adulthood and not be linked to your heritage. The more common way is when your parents have unknown affairs or children out of wedlock and may not themselves know or care to know who the actual father is. I personally know of two people in their thirties/forties who found out just this year (after being married with kids of their own) that the men they thought were their bio dads...are not. So imagine you are a forensic genealogist compiling a family tree and you are looking for an 18-40 year old man within the Smith family line. But no one seems to match who is in the right age bracket. Could that be because somewhere along the paternal line - and maybe not even recently - a man named Jones raised a Smith child and only Mrs. Jones knew or suspected this?

The insurance companies can deny coverage as it is because people don't stick with one forever.

Most people have the same percentage of "bad" genes. Very seldom you see "all red" or "all green" in your genome. Moreover, you may have one bad gene on paternal chromosome, and the gene on the "opposite" maternal could be protective from that syndrome. So presence or absence of one bad gene says, essentially, nothing. Unless these are things like BRACA.

About the NPE, my uncle had a DNA match, 3d cousin or so, who openly told us that his situation was very murky, and he hired a genealogist to sort things out. A little bit later, he did. I got the name of his father and no information about that line as no one used to be aware of the guy's genetic contribution. Life is life.

But don't you think that good genealogists are trained to factor such things in? Finally, there is always this Y chromosome, that will tell it all.

I would assume that egg or sperm donations might be more confusing, but not impossible to resolve.

 

[Yemelyan]

I'm sure the families of Libby and Abby would want us, and others, to continue to discuss this case. It keeps it alive. It does no harm.

I agree with you, but...like many (most?) of you I scour the news every day hoping to hear of progress on this case, or an arrest, and then I come here and read the most outlandish speculation and theories. It can be frustrating because it seems to serve no purpose. Did he leave the phone because he was stupid, or because he was so smart he knew it could be traced? Did he smash it, throw it in the creek? Did Libby hide it? We can discuss this all day, every day but police are never going to reveal this detail because knowledge of what he did to the phone will mark and set aside the person who did this from every other person of interest.

In reality, no one here is going to solve the case. Respectfully, I think it would be a mistake to assume all of us here are even playing with a full deck. Most of us are really here, whether we admit it or not, just because we feel bad about something that happened to two girls on a bridge on a warm-ish day in February. Our discussion here is really just for our benefit in trying to make sense of very brutal and nonsensical things.

 

[Yemelyan]

Snipped for focus

But don't you think that good genealogists are trained to factor such things in? Finally, there is always this Y chromosome, that will tell it all.

I would assume that egg or sperm donations might be more confusing, but not impossible to resolve.

I'm glad you have it all figured out!!

But seriously, you've talking about an event where your uncle's 3rd cousin already knew his situation was "murky." What if there is an out of wedlock parentage that no one still living knows about? Obviously it's not as simple as "the Y chromosome will tell it all" or else every cold case with offender DNA would be solved by now. Paul Holes, the criminalist who worked on the EAR/ONS case, revealed in an interview at Crime-Con that he had been consulted on the Delphi case and he thought they were going to have a tough investigation ahead of them with respect to using genealogy to solve it. There is something about the DNA available in this case that is off IMO.

 

[StarrChance]

momma-k, thankyou for your insight of the area and possible perps. Do you feel the one LE might be keeping a eye one has any religious connection?

 

[Charlot123]

I agree with you, but...like many (most?) of you I scour the news every day hoping to hear of progress on this case, or an arrest, and then I come here and read the most outlandish speculation and theories. It can be frustrating because it seems to serve no purpose. Did he leave the phone because he was stupid, or because he was so smart he knew it could be traced? Did he smash it, throw it in the creek? Did Libby hide it? We can discuss this all day, every day but police are never going to reveal this detail because knowledge of what he did to the phone will mark and set aside the person who did this from every other person of interest.

In reality, no one here is going to solve the case. Respectfully, I think it would be a mistake to assume all of us here are even playing with a full deck. Most of us are really here, whether we admit it or not, just because we feel bad about something that happened to two girls on a bridge on a warm-ish day in February. Our discussion here is really just for our benefit in trying to make sense of very brutal and nonsensical things.

Exactly. We are not going to solve it, unless LE releases something else, or unless someone runs into a person speaking, moving and looking like BG.

I think we are here because we are obsessed with this case. It is unusual. It is mean and sad. I think the girls did have a good future, and were trying not to repeat some mistakes they saw around, and their families, ordinary people, were investing a lot into the future of these girls.

The police, however, is the weak link. Darn, people who mostly deal with meth addicts, meet with such a difficult case. The local pathologist who probably deals with ODs runs into something horrendous. Were they up to their task, or not? If were not, I don't blame them, because the case was above and beyond anyone's head, but maybe they should listen to some external experts, now, at least?

I have a strange feeling that they have a POI, and many things fit, except for the video and the voice. And because they know their POI lied, they can't put it all together.

 

[they'll get you]

I can’t believe this murderer has not been caught considering the effort of videoing BG.

I’m saddened for these innocent girls. C’mon LE go get him!
Love from Australia.

 

[Charlot123]

Snipped for focus



I'm glad you have it all figured out!!

But seriously, you've talking about an event where your uncle's 3rd cousin already knew his situation was "murky." What if there is an out of wedlock parentage that no one still living knows about? Obviously it's not as simple as "the Y chromosome will tell it all" or else every cold case with offender DNA would be solved by now. Paul Holes, the criminalist who worked on the EAR/ONS case, revealed in an interview at Crime-Con that he had been consulted on the Delphi case and he thought they were going to have a tough investigation ahead of them with respect to using genealogy to solve it. There is something about the DNA available in this case that is off IMO.

Probably. And I wonder if the DNA doesn't match their POI, or their is something odd there, the DNA looks like a POI's relative or so. Finally - if they have DNA but don't have matches, maybe the perp was smarter than we think, and DNA is not his?

Well, there probably are other ways to deal with the DNA, outside of Gedmatch or CODIS. There are several other open access DNA sites, not only Gedmatch. But the LE won't be able to resolve it themselves. They don't specialize in it.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I have a feeling it's someone that is "over protesting".....his FB page or business probably has the sketch and he may just be totally outraged over this pervert and saying what he would do to him if he came across him....that sort of thing.

... or nothing like that and posting the OBG sketch but not the NBG sketch, which probably would have betrayed him, IMO.

 

[pearl]

I think the Delphi LE have done well. They recognized this crime was beyond their local resources, and they called in the appropriate help. I don't think they are waiting for DNA to solve this crime. They either have the DNA info by now or they don't. The repeated requests for someone to come forward if they recognize the person who "is hiding in plain sight" tells me they know who it is. How would they know the person was hiding in plain sight if they did not know who it U.S.? I think if LE did not know who did these murders, they would not know where he is hiding. Hopefully, soon that needed person will come forward and give the girl's families and the town of Delphi some peace.

 

[tresir2012]

Well, I'm not a genetics expert, I'm merely relaying what has happened on another very recent case in which they have the monster in custody. It's the Kelsey Berreth case on WS.

I'm no expert either - just speculating but I didn't follow the KB thread that much once they seemed to have the perps. I'll have to catch up on that.

 

[tresir2012]

I'm just frustrated we sit here without any new information or arrests.

Its stressful but I bet when it's all said and done one day we will learn the perp was known to them or one.

We are all frustrated so think how the families feel. 2.5 years is really not very long and this case is far from cold IMO while tips and leads are still being followed by LE. So that is why we follow, comment waiting for the day we have ARREST in that title. We are now just beginning, have patience with us LE have said. We must give them that patience.

 

[Heaven Leigh]

It's really mind blowing BG has got away with this so far. I feel the same about so many other cases with no arrests. Sadly, too many.

 

[margarita25]

So what if we want to regurgitate. If anyone is tired with regurgitation then don’t read here. This is WS, and we can speculate til the cows come home because that’s what we do. Neither are we giving up and going to call it quits in these threads just because some people are negative nellies.

Nobody here knows what is or what isn’t going to break this case wide open. Despite LE being tight lipped, I think a lot of people have done a darn good job of bringing to the table academic discussions about things such as DNA, etc. We are not LE and it’s not our responsibility or job to solve this case, yet we rack our minds and hearts to be a part of these threads because we are interested in criminology, forensics, and all want to see an arrest.

There are always new people and fresh eyes and ears coming here. Just because some of us have been here for 2 1/2 years, not everyone else has.

For some of those complaining about the regurgitation, ask yourselves how much have you contributed here? Because I’m seeing people complaining who as far as I can tell haven’t added a single article, map, nothing.

You got audio and video and still cant solve it 2.5 years later. You need to work on other cases...

Who says ISP isn’t working on other cases? I see their name all the time working on other cases.

It's pointless to have a million pages of the same chatter for years. We cant discuss things that dig deeper in regards to family, friends, associates anyways. It's against the rules.

It gets everybody no where to spit the same stuff in and out for 2.5 years.

What do you think investigators do when they hit a wall or a case goes cold? They go back to square one. Take a look at the case in my signature line, we are regurgitating almost 30 years later.

I personally think challenging cases like this only make us stronger and smarter sleuthers. Only forces us to really think harder about this and continue to re-examine our thoughts and possible theories. Etc.

BBM

rsbm
It can be frustrating because it seems to serve no purpose. Did he leave the phone because he was stupid, or because he was so smart he knew it could be traced? Did he smash it, throw it in the creek? Did Libby hide it?

Well considering this sounds exactly like a post I just made the other day I’ll go ahead and respond to this.

This is where one person’s assessment of what or what isn’t valuable in a discussion....

All the above points were referenced in a post I made. You know why? To help bring a new poster who is local up to speed with a summary of what has been discussed for 2 1/2 years.

Here’s the post:

Valid thought and as you can imagine in 111 threads, that has been questioned/discussed. Some various ideas about that off the top of my head include:

1. Perhaps BG wasn’t aware that Libby had a phone on her because:

A) He just didn’t think about or anticipate it at the time

B) She hid it/tossed it before he could know about it/see it and was recovered later by LE, on either land or in the creek (or she tossed it after he became aware of it).

D) Libby had it on her person, perhaps in her pocket or bra for example. Since COD is unknown to us, as well as confirmation of SA, then the possibility exists he wouldn’t have found it on her if he:

AA) Killed her in a non hands on manner such as gunshot

BB) Didn’t sexually assault Libby or otherwise have extended physical contact with her.

2) If BG found it he maybe attempted to destroy it or throw it in the water but the data was recovered.

3) If he did see the phone perhaps it was lost during the scuffle or escape/exit.

*I feel like there are some other ideas shared on possibilities as to why the phone could have been left at the scene, but I can’t remember them all right now, lol. Feel free to add anyone.

Additionally:

Opinions/thoughts here also vary on if BG is:

A) Disorganized & not necessarily experienced, but rather “lucky”

B) Experienced, Organized

C) Some combination of both.

—-



Yeah. BG was indeed hunting, imo; unfortunately it wasn’t for morel mushrooms.

Who’s to say what should be and what shouldn’t rehashed here? There are some of us here who are interested in continuing to discuss profiling angles, other possibly connected crimes, crime scene logistics, DNA aspects, all of what have to do with factors which may be regurgitated. I think it’s rude to single out certain aspects of the discussion as being insignificant. Nobody here knows what really is significant or not. Sure we can not sleuth local associates, but not everybody here, such as myself, is interested solely in that. That’s LE’s job.

 

[Justice101]

Crime magazines? Is that still a thing? and if he has little money he's spending it on True Crime magazines?
I don't want to profile someone as having little money based off a blurry sketch because then we may miss someone who was dressed down for the day.
Is 30-40 but had pants for 30 years?
I hate to pick apart your profile, I really do, but I think some of it is off. I don't think reading crime magazines would truly help someone know how to get away with double murder in broad daylight. Sorry to pick it apart.

I told you it was just 100% speculation. Hopefully we will all see how far off each of us is...when this thing gets solved. In reality when it is all said and done, us having so little information from LE, makes us all wrong.