Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #120

[Falling Down]

I would go with 30ish. I like the versions that don't rely on details specific to this case. John Douglass says he always starts at a specific age and then adjusts up or down depending on the case itself. For some reason I've forgotten the age Douglass uses as starting point. Something like 28. Maybe others would know.

Regarding the bridge prior to the trails or Freedom Bridge or State Road 25, on Reddit the other day there was an interesting post from someone who grew up in Delphi. It was posted in the "watershed" thread. This is what he wrote:

"...But not too many that knew about the High Bridge area... Honestly until these murders it was kind of a local secret treasure for hikers.

As a kid you used to have to hike through the woods on an abandoned railroad bed to find it. I think I was a junior or senior in high school by the time they had officially expanded the public trail system to the bridge (which is technically where they stop)"

Great points.

I can relate, I never knew an abandoned railroad property was so close to me while growing up, until someone took me there my senior year of HS. Happens to be where Arthur Shawcross left one of his victims, which I didn't know until recent years.

Delphi locals interviewed after the murders mentioned that they knew of the MHB, but had no idea where it was, how to get to it, etc. Again, something which may or may not be significant, but illustrates sometimes we as people don't know stuff is close to home, like parks, abandoned industrial properties, etc.

The main right-of-way trail, which today runs from the Freedom Bridge to the Monon High Bridge, was cleared a bit and claimed by the local preservation and trail group roughly 2006-ish, I've mentioned 2004 in previous posts, but found my source which is within the link following this paragraph. This site is an incredible resource for explanations an imagery regarding the former Monon Railroad's subdivisions, spurs, etc., in and around Delphi. This page deals with a trip the author made in 2004, it shows a little bit of what the bridge trail looked like prior to, and shortly after being cleared out by the preservation group. At least two images appear to be of the abandoned right-of-way (RoW)/trail which was cleared out of the way for the new IN 25 highway, which opened in 2014.

Delphi 2004

Spot is close to the place where the CPS building once stood, the main trailhead by the Freedom Bridge would be right there or perhaps just behind the photographer. I believe this is where a lot of trail users got on to the main trail, if they parked at the CPS building or along old C.R. 300 by there. I believe this is where BG got on to, and off, the main trail that day, this was taken in 2004 when the CPS building was still active:

https://monon.org/bygone_site/rossville/10-07delphi-south9.jpg

You can see how terribly overgrown it was, roughly 15 years after abandonment by CSX Transportation.

Caption:

Left: Another view of the elevator spur. According to my tourguide, the Monon would normally cut one locomotive loose from the train and run it up into the spur. The rest of the train would proceed south across the Deer Creek bridge and wait while the first locomotive pulled the cars out from the elevator. Right: Remains of an old section house north of the Deer Creek bridge.

"elevator spur" can be seen on older, archived aerial and Google Earth images of the area, prior to the highway being built. It's in reference to Andersons, a major grain, ethanol, etc., transfer company here in the U.S. They have facilities across a huge section of the country. The elevator spur is now a siding north of C.R. 300, Norfolk Southern services the grain terminal from the north, now.

To me this is an amazing shot, NW end of the MHB, looking north from the bridge, this would be behind Abby in the SnapChat image Libby uploaded at 2:07 PM on the day of the murders. Looks vastly different, today:

Caption:

Left: Looking north along the mainline from the Deer Creek bridge. Obstructions were erected to keep people off the bridge. Right: What a beautiful view of Deer Creek. Yes, it is a very high bridge.

My guess is the obstructions were put up when the line was abandoned and the rails were pulled up.

This view shows what was part of the trail, 2006. This was cleared away from the new IN 25 road, 2013/2014-ish, the Freedom Bridge spans the gap left by the excavation, the parking area on top of a berm just west of there, by Old 25, was created by the soil excavated from this area:

East of the above image, closer to where the trailhead where the Girard Trail splits off, and where the girls were dropped off. Roughly half way from the Freedom Bridge and that trailhead, close to the park bench where I believe BG was sitting at one point that afternoon, image from 2006:

https://monon.org/bygone_site/pixs13/05-06delphi06-5.jpg

Caption:

Left: Looking to the south along the former Monon right of way. Right: This location is about midway between the SR 25 bridge and the High Bridge. As you can see, the brush has been cut back and the trail is easy to walk. The scenery is beautiful too.

Right after the murders hit the news, I used the above site, then this one for reference. This one even gives grid coordinates and other pertinent info about the MHB:

Monon - Deer Creek High Bridge

YouTube has a bunch of videos from before the murders which show how to get to the trails, videos of the trails and bridge, etc.

 

[Falling Down]

Mom of one of two Delphi murder victims criticizes police | Daily Mail Online

• Indiana Police Superintendent Doug Carter, however, insists nothing was compromised by the search

 

[JenniD]

I always thought it was turned inside-out. MOO

I totally agree

 

[Charlot123]

ISP 1st Sgt Holeman stated it took weeks or even months to do the first sketch or the one that is sometimes referred to as OBG. He stated it came from more than just one witness and they called those witnesses back more than once to go over results. If I had to guess I would bet LE asked for those who were out on the trails that day AND the parking lots AND driving on nearby roads between certain hours, such as between noon and 5 PM as an example. Then asked them to list the folks they knew or recognized and then to describe those who they believed were strangers. IOW, LE wanted an outline of who was at the trails. What is interesting to me is the second sketch released in 2019 was done very early on (17 February). What was there about that sketch that they came up with it so quickly as opposed to the weeks or months for the 2nd sketch? And then LE comes back to it over 2 years later? ISP Superintendent Carter will not reveal why or what prompted them to release that second sketch.

Respectfully italicized by me.

I suspect that whoever they saw and described as OBG happened to remind of a couple of nation-wide known scums, including DN. And the police, naturally, for mere human reason, probably hoped that such a horrible crime was not a local thing. Between YBG, probably more or less local and a nice person, and OBG resembling some faraway coloradian, they hoped for the stranger to do it. So they chased the stranger.
In the meantime, the DNA got ready. And that DNA did not fit DN at all but fit the NBG too well.

I don’t know what the “twist” mentioned by Tobe Lazenby is. But the way I imagine, it is akin to “ambiguous image” phenomenon, like this famous “my wife and my mother in law”. You see one, old, face, thinking of a certain situation, but having looked long enough, you suddenly notice a young face inside, and a different story. This picture...
I think we look at the story from one angle because we don’t know much, and maybe don’t see the obvious.

 

[Charlot123]

I do think it is time for LE to release more info. How were they killed, were they sexually assaulted, how was the crime scene strange or peculiar as has been suggested. It is no good keeping this info close to the chest if the case does not get solved. MOO.

Respectfully snipped by me. Sorry.

I feel the girls were not sexually assaulted, and the case is missing some markers of a serial killer. For the killer, it would have made sense to abduct, kill and hide them. Maybe visit later.

This case has two strange elements in it. One, the person was unafraid of the girls being found, maybe wanted it? It seems that he wanted them to be seen. MOO.

And another thing, I suddenly understood what DC might have meant when he said, “To the killer: I believe you have some conscience left”.

We don’t really know the details of the scene, but from what I have read, there were some clothes in water, but no nudity? (I don’t remember where I have read it, after three years, I think we can mention it).

And to me it indicates that that person, that horrible, cruel assassin, was, maybe, ashamed to look at his own work, the bodies? People were using the word “posed”, maybe the true strangeness was in them being covered as he did not want to see their faces?

And this to me would be “physically strange”. Not a hair indicating an illness. These are clues. Just the fact that the person was a brutal killer, who left the bodies for Delphi to see, and yet was probably ashamed to look at his deed?

I don’t feel he is a serial killer. (A hired assassin, maybe). I think the scene of crime was left as a certain message to someone alive, maybe contained elements of some “language”, but BG did not enjoy looking at it.

 

[BNA]

Respectfully snipped by me. Sorry.



I don’t feel he is a serial killer. (A hired assassin, maybe). I think the scene of crime was left as a certain message to someone alive, maybe contained elements of some “language”, but BG did not enjoy looking at it.

Interesting post, imo.

Made a thought flash into my mind. Some of us think we see him mumbling or talking in the video.

What if....a big what if, I know....what if he was forced/coerced/blackmailed into doing this or assist with this? (To assure silence about a previous crime, for instance.)

 

[Charlot123]

I still can't reason with why the killer had to corner them on the bridge. There are so many other places even right there within the trail system. But what really bugs me is the fact that he killed them and left them there. It really makes me wonder if he was just on foot with no vehicle. Like someone who lives right there within a mile walking distance. 3 yrs. later and I just can't shake this thought.

He could have parked at someone’s house. He could have virtually been someone’s friend.

 

[Charlot123]

Interesting post, imo.

Made a thought flash into my mind. Some of us think we see him mumbling or talking in the video.

What if....a big what if, I know....what if he was forced/coerced/blackmailed into doing this or assist with this? (To assure silence about a previous crime, for instance.)

This is what I was thinking about. Exactly. Not a SK. (IA murders look like the job of a serial killer. Abducted and hidden, with the wish that they were never found. Some other women who disappeared from the trails. All Bundy’s lairs).

SK have lairs. They might be sadistic and god knows what they do to their victims, but they don’t want the whole world to know about their violent fantasies.

Here, it is obvious that the girls were meant to be found, and seen.

Now, there are so many different rumors about the crime scene that I refuse to even sort things out, but Ives said that it looked strange, and someone else said it could not be unseen. So we probably can safely assume that it was striking. And I am thinking, what if the whole scene was a message, conveying something to at least one person, or more?

So if that man was a hired assassin, then, his connection to Delphi could have been cursory. He probably knew the bridge, or maybe, as someone said, could have scouted it before. He is a planner. He has killed before, I assume, just not young teenage girls.

LE can still identify him. But if he is from more criminal circles, not a pedophilic serial killer, then it is way more hard. And scary, too.

 

[Charlot123]

These are curious statements. I think back to how LE requested PE's DNA and autopsy report. I'm not suggesting PE as a suspect, I'm looking at why an autopsy report would be pertinent, and how that correlates to a "physically strange" crime scene.

Maybe there was evidence of something unique to the killer aside from his DNA, yet something that would be identifiable through an autopsy: an issue apparent in the footprints, a hair sample indicating a rare disease, medication, or drug use, or clues to certain behaviors that can be connected to an illness, injury, lifestyle, or genetic composition, etc. There could be a thousand examples.

Even the creek crossing itself is odd. I just hope this means they have enough evidence to pin the person once they have him.

Could be much simpler. Autopsy report includes toxicology.

Another different issue noticed during autopsy is presence/absence of prior vasectomy. That, of course, in case the girls were assaulted, or if BG left certain traces elsewhere.

Looking at BG and listening to his voice, I can almost guarantee he has Barrett’s esophagus, this is the disease I am actually thinking about in the context of BG, but sadly, it is so common among white middle-aged men who drink and smoke, that it is probably the norm in rural Indiana.

And a couple of other things, right or left-handed, prior knee trauma/arthritis/neuropathy?

 

[Cyprusg]

What strikes me as unique about his appearance is the fact that he has curly reddish hair and wears an Irish flat cap. It's possible that the flat cap was just a disguise and he wouldn't normally wear one but it's such a odd choice when there's probably a thousand beanies to every one flat cap. It makes me think that he's somebody that likes to show off his Irish heritage since he has red hair as well. It wouldn't be odd for someone that's into fashion, but he's clearly not. I feel like the flat cap meant something to him.

Also the thing I keep going back to in my mind is trying to figure out why he was there. It was a Monday. At 2:07PM libby posted a snapchat and the suspect was not in the photo. They were dropped off at 1:30PM. So clearly this person did not see them get dropped off as it would take a lot less than 40 minutes to get to the bridge from the entrance. Also the way he walks on the bridge he seemed comfortable with it. It could be just adrenaline or him thinking about what he's going to do but being 40 feet up he sure walked that bridge with confidence. He also forced them to walk across the freezing creek, which tells me his plan was to kill them and then walk back to his car that was parked near M 300 N through the woods so he wouldn't be seen. None of that may have any significance other than the fact that I really believe he was familiar with that area. Maybe not a Delphi local, but he had been on that trail before.

But then I go back to what reasons would a man have to walk that trail on a Monday afternoon? I walk trails every day and the number of times I've seen a middle aged man walk by himself without a dog I can count on one hand. It's not a common thing to do. So did he go there hoping for a victim? Did he know that school was out for the day? If so, how? Does he have children himself? So many questions...

 

[sunshineray]

Respectfully snipped by me. Sorry.

I feel the girls were not sexually assaulted, and the case is missing some markers of a serial killer. For the killer, it would have made sense to abduct, kill and hide them. Maybe visit later.

This case has two strange elements in it. One, the person was unafraid of the girls being found, maybe wanted it? It seems that he wanted them to be seen. MOO.

And another thing, I suddenly understood what DC might have meant when he said, “To the killer: I believe you have some conscience left”.

We don’t really know the details of the scene, but from what I have read, there were some clothes in water, but no nudity? (I don’t remember where I have read it, after three years, I think we can mention it).

And to me it indicates that that person, that horrible, cruel assassin, was, maybe, ashamed to look at his own work, the bodies? People were using the word “posed”, maybe the true strangeness was in them being covered as he did not want to see their faces?

And this to me would be “physically strange”. Not a hair indicating an illness. These are clues. Just the fact that the person was a brutal killer, who left the bodies for Delphi to see, and yet was probably ashamed to look at his deed?

I don’t feel he is a serial killer. (A hired assassin, maybe). I think the scene of crime was left as a certain message to someone alive, maybe contained elements of some “language”, but BG did not enjoy looking at it.

I understand what you mean when you say you think the girls weren't sexually assaulted. I think of it differently though. With that info you mentioned about the clothes being found in the creek in mind, I feel the even partial disrobing of a girl, in my mind, constituents a sexually assault. Whether done before death with the terror that would create for the young victim or after death and the total disrespect just that would be to their body not even considering the ending of a life in itself. My blood boils when I think about it. God bless Abby and Libby and may the monster that took their lives be finally apprehended soon.

 

[sunshineray]

The creek crossing has puzzled me since very early on. I initially just figured BG had walked them back across the bridge and down the hill on the other side somewhere. After all this time I cannot fathom that anyone would make a plan that included crossing a creek in mid-February. My thoughts now are that the killer was leading them somewhere down the creek on the original side but the girls bolted across the creek. He unfortunately ran them down and in a rage killed them. That has been the only way my weak brain has been able to make sense of the creek crossing.

I've entertained this senario too. Someone did a walkthrough, down the hill and to the right along that roadway. To the right of it was an area that gave me chills because it looked so isolated and away from any eyes. I wonder exactly where Libby's shoe was found. That might hold a clue as to what may have occured on that right side of the creek.

 

[sunshineray]

It is possible Carter saying "he stood here (at the sign), even his first day" might allude that BG could have done some type of work at the bridge. I imagine someone starting a land survey, or bridge inspection or soil sampling or worse case maybe even the first day he helped with the investigation.

My understanding from different articles and other sources online is that there were quite a few people around that day. Some of them doing work related things on or very near the trails. I was actually shocked at just how many people were in the area that particular afternoon and in the previous days to the murders.

 

[stattlich1]

People were using the word “posed”, maybe the true strangeness was in them being covered as he did not want to see their faces?

And this to me would be “physically strange”.

Snipped my me, to focus on the 'physically strange' piece.

For me, to speculate on this 'physically strange' comment, and the remark that it 'can't be unseen', leads me to think it was rather grotesque, like re-arrangement of dismembered body parts from one victim to the other, and vice versa, or the positioning of the bodies in relation to each other.

Nice to read your posts Charlot123

I read up-thread the linky to the article of the mother speaking of a contaminated crime scene. ISP officer admits it was a contaminated crime scene, on tape. Trying to backtrack now won't satisfy this old boy.

If I recall, he said a thousand, I doubt that many, but he said it, in any event, there were many, MANY people who tramped all over those woods, not to mention the scene being rather unsecured overnight. Any perp, or anyone else, could have returned to those victims and spent time contaminating the scene. Just the presence of that many searchers, in and of itself, contaminates the scene.

To me though, that's all a moot point at this juncture. I do think 2 or more perps involved, I heard LE say it in a vid, I think it was one of the podcasts, spoken of earlier in this thread by me, then, IMO, tried again to backtrack on that comment.

Screenshot of post that leads to the admission of crime scene contamination....



All MOO, nobody else's, couldn't be, as I'm the one who has it

 

[Brazenkane]

But the way I imagine, it is akin to “ambiguous image” phenomenon, like this famous “my wife and my mother in law”. You see one, old, face, thinking of a certain situation, but having looked long enough, you suddenly notice a young face inside, and a different story. This picture...
I think we look at the story from one angle because we don’t know much, and maybe don’t see the obvious.

I’ve changed my tune on age range and it hit me why.

For so long the ‘guys, down the hill’ audio struck me as younger and I couldnt put my finger on it. But now I get it.

We all know men in their 40s, 50s and 60s say ‘guys’, so I couldn’t discount an older male. But I have realised it’s the context that makes all the difference. Older men call males ‘guys’ but I have found it’s rare or odd for older men to call young females ‘guys’, they always say ‘girls’. E.g. ‘excuse me girls’ ‘what are those girls up to?’ Etc.

It’s only younger men in my experience that will call young females ‘guys’. E.g. ‘hey guys’

So I now think BG is under 40. Which coincidentally fits the LE age range

 

[aust amateur slueth]

I’ve changed my tune on age range and it hit me why.

For so long the ‘guys, down the hill’ audio struck me as younger and I couldnt put my finger on it. But now I get it.

We all know men in their 40s, 50s and 60s say ‘guys’, so I couldn’t discount an older male. But I have realised it’s the context that makes all the difference. Older men call males ‘guys’ but I have found it’s rare or odd for older men to call young females ‘guys’, they always say ‘girls’. E.g. ‘excuse me girls’ ‘what are those girls up to?’ Etc.

It’s only younger men in my experience that will call young females ‘guys’. E.g. ‘hey guys’

So I now think BG is under 40. Which coincidentally fits the LE age range

teachers/school staff may call students guys.

 

[TL4S]

Could be much simpler. Autopsy report includes toxicology.

Another different issue noticed during autopsy is presence/absence of prior vasectomy. That, of course, in case the girls were assaulted, or if BG left certain traces elsewhere.

Looking at BG and listening to his voice, I can almost guarantee he has Barrett’s esophagus, this is the disease I am actually thinking about in the context of BG, but sadly, it is so common among white middle-aged men who drink and smoke, that it is probably the norm in rural Indiana.

And a couple of other things, right or left-handed, prior knee trauma/arthritis/neuropathy?

I agree the "physically strange" comment likely meant something literal about the scene, not something only detectable through forensic analysis. But Ives also said (paraphrasing) that the crime scene was unique and odd, and that there is commonly odd evidence collected from a murder scene because people don't generally kill each other all that often. This is why I said that maybe there was evidence of a particular behavior, and maybe that behavior could be linked to something through autopsy. Like the examples you said about handedness, etc.

For sake of argument, I'm going to use wild examples because I'm NOT suggesting BG has these ailments. I'm not trying to be condescending, I just don't want anyone to misconstrue. Let's say LE collected a reddish brown hair and were able identify Fragile X syndrome. The footprints indicated a club foot. Or they could tell everything had been done using a right hand only, meaning the left arm might be defunct. Maybe the bodies were bathed in the creek with homemade soap and re-dressed to perfection, indicating some kind of ritualistic or compulsive trait. These are silly ideas, but my point is there could be a million ways to interpret the "physically strange" crime scene comment. I just put it together with other happenings along the way (like requesting an autopsy report) and it does seem that one way or another, BG left his personal mark. It gives me hope!

 

[TL4S]

This is what I was thinking about. Exactly. Not a SK. (IA murders look like the job of a serial killer. Abducted and hidden, with the wish that they were never found. Some other women who disappeared from the trails. All Bundy’s lairs).

SK have lairs. They might be sadistic and god knows what they do to their victims, but they don’t want the whole world to know about their violent fantasies.

Here, it is obvious that the girls were meant to be found, and seen.

Now, there are so many different rumors about the crime scene that I refuse to even sort things out, but Ives said that it looked strange, and someone else said it could not be unseen. So we probably can safely assume that it was striking. And I am thinking, what if the whole scene was a message, conveying something to at least one person, or more?

So if that man was a hired assassin, then, his connection to Delphi could have been cursory. He probably knew the bridge, or maybe, as someone said, could have scouted it before. He is a planner. He has killed before, I assume, just not young teenage girls.

LE can still identify him. But if he is from more criminal circles, not a pedophilic serial killer, then it is way more hard. And scary, too.

I tend to agree with this line of thinking. It doesn't feel SK to me, either.

I don't think the bodies were necessarily left to be found, though. If he led them to that location, I think it was likely because it was the first spot he could find that wasn't visible from the bridge, trail, etc. He knew they wouldn't be found until he was long gone, at least. And if one or both of the girls ran, he might have been in a rage when he caught up with them on the north side of the creek, killed them, and moved them just out of sight of the bridge. Who knows.

 

[Falling Down]

I tend to agree with this line of thinking. It doesn't feel SK to me, either.

I don't think the bodies were necessarily left to be found, though. If he led them to that location, I think it was likely because it was the first spot he could find that wasn't visible from the bridge, trail, etc. He knew they wouldn't be found until he was long gone, at least. And if one or both of the girls ran, he might have been in a rage when he caught up with them on the north side of the creek, killed them, and moved them just out of sight of the bridge. Who knows.

I agree with much of this line of reasoning. He chose the CS beforehand, it can't be seen from the bridge. Line-of-sight the CS would be 1100 feet give or take, say from the NW end of the bridge, but there is no "line-of-sight", the CS is obscured from virtually any angle when looking in its general direction, from the bridge.

My take on them being seen, let's say before the murders, would have been when they crossed the creek. The view from the nearby house is a clear line-of-sight, but nobody was home that day. I think BG took a lot of what he observed in the gorge before the murders into account when planning how he would attack someone or some people, and where he would lead them to.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

I’ve changed my tune on age range and it hit me why.

For so long the ‘guys, down the hill’ audio struck me as younger and I couldnt put my finger on it. But now I get it.

We all know men in their 40s, 50s and 60s say ‘guys’, so I couldn’t discount an older male. But I have realised it’s the context that makes all the difference. Older men call males ‘guys’ but I have found it’s rare or odd for older men to call young females ‘guys’, they always say ‘girls’. E.g. ‘excuse me girls’ ‘what are those girls up to?’ Etc.

It’s only younger men in my experience that will call young females ‘guys’. E.g. ‘hey guys’

So I now think BG is under 40. Which coincidentally fits the LE age range

I've wondered myself how LE came up with an age range, my guess would be late 20's to mid-30's, at the most.

JMO