Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #123

[MistyWaters]

Good article, thanks for posting. Besides the polygraph info there was something else in it that surprised me. It surprises only because it's been stated so many times in the media that the opposite was the case. BBM

"Police have not released how Abby and Libby died, but say the teens' immediate family members know the answer. Even without such details, the community is still trying to cope with the loss, too."

If that's accurate it could mean certain facts about the scene and murders could be out there. JMO

you’re welcome. I think many of the very early online news reports were quite informative however they’re becoming difficult to find and some have been overwritten.

From that same link, it surprised me Volunteers were manning the front desk and I’d sure hope they were vetted very well. My imagination takes me to a scenario of various people in the outer lobby waiting in turn to provide statements, some of them chatting it up amongst themselves or with the volunteers including making excited utterances about the information they’re about to provide to police.

 

[Tiger Stripes]

Depends. MOO

I don't know, @FromGermany, we Midwesterners are a pretty "boring" looking lot (though yes, it's true, there *are* several among us who are "fashion plates" , but that would tend to be the exception, and would tend to point more to an individual with "big city" connections or who works in a large metropolitan area). For the most part, Midwesterners prefer to "stand out" in other ways -- not necessarily by making fashion statements (and nothing wrong with making such statements, either!).

To sum up (and yes, this is a "humongous" generalization; I speak *only* from many years of experience living in various Midwestern states, and from being a rather sharp observer [if I say so myself -- though am far, far from being a part of any SEAL team or Delta Force -- with nods to @Charlot123!]):

Most potential Midwestern-based suspects in this case can, and do, handily "blend in" without even trying to. Even an experienced, sharp-eyed observer would have to already have "insider information" OR a strong "hinky sense" (or possess both) to so much as *guess*. And *that* is -- all JMOO -- why, and how, Abby's and Libby's killer has gone undetected for so long.
--
ETA: Do *I* think the killer is still alive? Absolutely.
*Where* do I think the killer is ATM? Sitting right over there -- not far from you: at the park, at a cafe, at the drive-through lane where you're getting your morning coffee... Oh, yeah, and skimming this thread from time to time, too... (Yup -- intended to creep you out with just *how* "ordinary" he looks.)

 

[rosesfromangels]

A few random thoughts and responses from all the great posts.

Polygraph is *not* a “lie detector”, it is an interrogation tool.

I speculate the comment LE made regarding “the public may be shocked by who the Perp is”, suggests someone from a prominent and well established family. He is the church usher, raises money for Boy Scout troop, and so forth. (Example only, not literally).

I’m going to plant a flag and state I believe we will see an arrest within 30 days or less, and the Perp is a family member of someone who taught, coached, or had similar close contact with the girls.

I guess we’ll see if this is right. My amateur opinion and speculation, amateur profiling, and info from various speculative sources all point to this timing and outcome.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Tiger Stripes]

A few random thoughts and responses from all the great posts.

Polygraph is *not* a “lie detector”, it is an interrogation tool.

I speculate the comment LE made regarding “the public may be shocked by who the Perp is”, suggests someone from a prominent and well established family. He is the church usher, raises money for Boy Scout troop, and so forth. (Example only, not literally).

I’m going to plant a flag and state I believe we will see an arrest within 30 days or less, and the Perp is a family member of someone who taught, coached, or had similar close contact with the girls.

I guess we’ll see if this is right. My amateur opinion and speculation, amateur profiling, and info from various speculative sources all point to this timing and outcome.

Amateur opinion and speculation

(BBM)

This *is* Midwest "planting season", @rosesfromangels, so... I'm liking the flag that you're "planting" (ever hopeful for justice to be served for Abby & Libby, and for an arrest to be made).

Would you be willing to share your "30 days or less" source? (Perhaps just your own "hinky sense"?) In any case, still hoping and praying that it *is* that soon -- that would be excellent news.

 

[rosesfromangels]

(BBM)

This *is* Midwest "planting season", @rosesfromangels, so... I'm liking the flag that you're "planting" (ever hopeful for justice to be served for Abby & Libby, and for an arrest to be made).

Would you be willing to share your "30 days or less" source? (Perhaps just your own "hinky sense"?) In any case, still hoping and praying that it *is* that soon -- that would be excellent news.

My sources are all amateur speculators, just like me. I compile all the various theories and tidbits of data, and apply my own reasoning. All speculative, no MSM or “insider” info. I extract from the “word cloud” and look for patterns and form speculations.

I will say this. I believe LE knows *exactly* what they are doing.

still an amateur expressing opinion and speculations only

 

[Vivyinsect]

I sometimes think that if they release one of the signatures, it will be enough for “that” tip. But which one? That is the question.

I was thinking about that the other day and realized that “signatures” could be very awful things done to the girls. I think if there was an easy little quirk to release, they would have. There are things that LE said that kind of contradict each other. I’m not good at verbatim, but I found it odd how disturbed they were by the condition of the girls, but they could guarantee that the public wasn’t in any danger. Is there a suspect already in custody that has been for other crimes, but cannot be positively linked to the girls?

 

[Charlot123]

I imagine that for a target to notice the gaze, one needs to notice the observer.

Thus, observers probably make themselves as inconspicuous as possible. Homeless maybe a good cover as a good number normally have intense gazes. Other good covers maybe say, a valet parking lot attendant normally watching for clients, vandals and smash and grab thieves. Thus, watching gazes from these people are less likely to raise alarm bells.

I also think that really in depth surveillance requires teams of observers. Each observer's amount of contact with the target is reduced, therefore less chance of the target noticing "the gaze". Likewise, the target maybe observed by two people simultaneously, with less need to gaze.

In the end, my bet is that top level surveillance takes a lot of observer skill and team resources. This is probably especially so if the target is an ex con.

With convicts, or anybody else, uneducated does not always mean unintelligent. Likewise, while in prison, they have little to do all day besides observe people, events and things. As a result, some ex cons can get extremely good at noticing small details, deviations or connections between events in and out of prison.

Some ex cons should be (or maybe are?) used as analysts.

(I am very much interested in female spies - not the poor Mata Hari that probably was not even a spy, but really good analysts. Sometimes one could run across a book or an article, but usually more is written about men).

 

[JDough]

That touch DNA on the sweatshirt of one of the girls was revealed on a GH video. As far as I know GH has been vetted and his stuff is allowed.

Oh yes- GH has absolutely been approved as a trusted source. He is actually a member here on WS (just in case someone is not aware)!

I posted the YouTube video a couple of pages back, where "Dennis" called in to a live GH show. While "Dennis" did indicate touch DNA was found on the shoulder area of one of the Girls' sweatshirt, he admitted he was told this information by a third party. I am not disputing that it may very well be true. However, just because an unknown person calls in to a live show (of a trusted source), it doesn't mean the information being provided is accurate. Again- the information could be exactly right; playing devil's advocate here. But until LE confirms (or denies) the information, we really have no way of knowing for certain.

 

[Charlot123]

I don't know, @FromGermany, we Midwesterners are a pretty "boring" looking lot (though yes, it's true, there *are* several among us who are "fashion plates" , but that would tend to be the exception, and would tend to point more to an individual with "big city" connections or who works in a large metropolitan area). For the most part, Midwesterners prefer to "stand out" in other ways -- not necessarily by making fashion statements (and nothing wrong with making such statements, either!).

To sum up (and yes, this is a "humongous" generalization; I speak *only* from many years of experience living in various Midwestern states, and from being a rather sharp observer [if I say so myself -- though am far, far from being a part of any SEAL team or Delta Force -- with nods to @Charlot123!]):

Most potential Midwestern-based suspects in this case can, and do, handily "blend in" without even trying to. Even an experienced, sharp-eyed observer would have to already have "insider information" OR a strong "hinky sense" (or possess both) to so much as *guess*. And *that* is -- all JMOO -- why, and how, Abby's and Libby's killer has gone undetected for so long.
--
ETA: Do *I* think the killer is still alive? Absolutely.
*Where* do I think the killer is ATM? Sitting right over there -- not far from you: at the park, at a cafe, at the drive-through lane where you're getting your morning coffee... Oh, yeah, and skimming this thread from time to time, too... (Yup -- intended to creep you out with just *how* "ordinary" he looks.)

@Tiger Stripes, I have lived on both coasts and at Midwest, for only a year.

The only group I don’t know much about are the Southerners. So all my observations are “minus the Southerners”.

But as to getting the “insider information”, Midwesterners are the most talkative, gossipy, blurty-out bunch of the whole country. Their filter is set very differently from the coastal ones. They like to surprise you with their help. It is not true that they don’t like to dress, but they are very conservative in their attire. At NW, they’d stay out by virtue of their “proper dresses”. They like to give unsolicited advises, too, and they are pretty good-natured.

(I myself am like this, so Midwest was easy. But - to survive at Midwest, you really have to keep with the Joneses).

Given this, a Midwesterner would probably stand out by being too quiet, closed, not curious and not talkative.

And this is why this case is so surprising to me. Even transplants from Midwest don’t like to discuss it (but they criticize the police). As to people who live at Midwest, and are unrelated to Delphi, they visibly yearn to drop this topic as soon as they can.

Unusual. JMO, and of course, we can not generalize.

 

[sunshineray]

Oh yes- GH has absolutely been approved as a trusted source. He is actually a member here on WS (just in case someone is not aware)!

I posted the YouTube video a couple of pages back, where "Dennis" called in to a live GH show. While "Dennis" did indicate touch DNA was found on the shoulder area of one of the Girls' sweatshirt, he admitted he was told this information by a third party. I am not disputing that it may very well be true. However, just because an unknown person calls in to a live show (of a trusted source), it doesn't mean the information being provided is accurate. Again- the information could be exactly right; playing devil's advocate here. But until LE confirms (or denies) the information, we really have no way of knowing for certain.

Agreed. I just was pointing out that we can mention the sweatshirt touch DNA because GH is an approved source for discussion material.

 

[JDough]

A few random thoughts and responses from all the great posts.

Polygraph is *not* a “lie detector”, it is an interrogation tool.

I speculate the comment LE made regarding “the public may be shocked by who the Perp is”, suggests someone from a prominent and well established family. He is the church usher, raises money for Boy Scout troop, and so forth. (Example only, not literally).

I’m going to plant a flag and state I believe we will see an arrest within 30 days or less, and the Perp is a family member of someone who taught, coached, or had similar close contact with the girls.

I guess we’ll see if this is right. My amateur opinion and speculation, amateur profiling, and info from various speculative sources all point to this timing and outcome.

Amateur opinion and speculation

If you are correct, Rose- I'm thinking the Fourth of July would be a great day for an arrest. LIBERTY and justice for all.

 

[JDough]

Agreed. I just was pointing out that we can mention the sweatshirt touch DNA because GH is an approved source for discussion material.

Thank you! I should have been more clear in my statement- sometimes my fingers move faster than my brain! Sorry for the confusion on my part.

I should have said "Because this information has not been revealed in MSM and confirmed by LE (to my knowledge), it is difficult to accurately discuss on the threads".

Regardless; touch DNA is a valid possibility. This is why I asked our verified LE to explain what it is, how it is processed for a DNA profile, and explain how it may/may not affect the prosecution during a trial. You know- like being prepared for an arrest and future trial using touch DNA as evidence!

 

[JnRyan]

I haven’t spoken to Delta or a SEAL, but from my limited experience, it is easy to find a non-standing out person for any country, for everything, but one thing. The gaze. You don’t pay attention to people with soft gaze, any intensity draws attention, more so than the stature. Training for surveillance means one has to take in a lot of information, so how can you hide attentive, intense even, gaze? This is hard.

Only my opinion, from the of photos I have seen as I love history - people with widely set, smiling, soft eyes, who easily crack average-level jokes, sympathetic, charming, easy drinkers, generous, are usually specialists of a higher level.

I don't know about the Delta folks, but from what I saw of the DEVGRU operators you wouldn't know them if you walked by them on the street or saw them in the store in civilian clothes. They fit right in. It's in their training. Quiet, but deadly.

 

[JnRyan]

I *think*, @StarryStarryNight, that @JnRyan has recently posted something along *these* lines (this, pertaining to the physical appearance of potential suspects in this case):

This, from @JnRyan's original post, and respectfully SBM:

---> That BG is just an average looking guy may be why we have some confusion on the sketches. If he lives in Indianapolis, Chicago or Louisville KY and I stood in line next to him at a coffee shop I probably wouldn't give him a second thought. <---

--
Thus, @StarryStarryNight, there has been a brief discussion regarding what people "look like" (i. e., potential suspects), as well as several comments re: what Delta Force or Seal Team members look like (i. e., that they *don't* look like/stand out as if they're members of Special Ops forces) when they're observing others -- especially others who are potential suspects (hope this didn't make it *more* confusing...).

Yeah, in a nutshell, I think you get it.

 

[California Sunset]

It's a fairly well-known fact (IMO) that many victims of "acquaintance rape" never report the crime, thus, leaving a huge set of unsolved crimes -- and an even huger set/pool of unnamed/unidentified rapists -- to whom *many* other crimes of opportunity could be linked.

It's my belief that victims of acquaintance rape are so full of shame (and some, no doubt, are full of fear, should they disclose their rapist's identity) that those rapists take a "break", as it were, then...shamelessly go on to commit *another* "crime of opportunity".

Even speedier than testing all of those hundreds of thousands of unopened rape kits across the country would be having some process whereby acquaintance rape victims could make a report without fear of retaliation or public shame (shaming of *them*, the victims -- strange as it sounds, I have heard of it happening). The present system is broken; *how* can it be fixed, and in the most expeditious, judicious manner? (Hoping those two adjectives don't sound like a "mis-match": "expeditious" and "judicious"...)

I read what you're saying, but I'm confused as to how it relates to these girls. I know of one guy that got away with rape for years, decades. I still keep track of him. He was never prosecuted, never caught that I am aware. Are you thinking this guy 'took a break' after killing the girls? I was thinking he may have taken a break but more out of fear of being recognized. Maybe he left the area, maybe temporarily, maybe for good. But if someone shows up sporting new beard, different hair color, different hair style, contact lenses/glasses, whatever changes in appearance. That should be a major clue.

 

[California Sunset]

You know, it always comes to my mind that that blue jacket, of course, is long gone, no one, probably, identifies it with the person, but maybe, just maybe, BG favors color blue in general? Suits his eyes or complexion, or whatever he has. Or maybe he used to like blue before the murders, but not now, and this, too, is a change?

Changes should lead to questions from the people seeing someone making these changes and those seeing the person should then ask 'why'?

 

[California Sunset]

I *think*, @StarryStarryNight, that @JnRyan has recently posted something along *these* lines (this, pertaining to the physical appearance of potential suspects in this case):

This, from @JnRyan's original post, and respectfully SBM:

---> That BG is just an average looking guy may be why we have some confusion on the sketches. If he lives in Indianapolis, Chicago or Louisville KY and I stood in line next to him at a coffee shop I probably wouldn't give him a second thought. <---

--
Thus, @StarryStarryNight, there has been a brief discussion regarding what people "look like" (i. e., potential suspects), as well as several comments re: what Delta Force or Seal Team members look like (i. e., that they *don't* look like/stand out as if they're members of Special Ops forces) when they're observing others -- especially others who are potential suspects (hope this didn't make it *more* confusing...).

I don't know about the movies, but I read the Jason Bourne books. Yes, it's a work of fiction, but the point is he was called 'The Chameleon'. He could change his appearance like someone changing his shirt. He was of 'average' height, 'average' weight, could look heavier or thinner depending on clothing, could change his hair color, eye color (with contacts), spoke several languages. He was trained. The Jason Bourne character also had cosmetic surgery to make his appearance 'more average' and less stand out.
Maybe the killer reads/watches movies, television, books, etc. Maybe he has taught himself how 'to blend in'.
I wonder if he's sweating?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I don't know, @FromGermany, we Midwesterners are a pretty "boring" looking lot (though yes, it's true, there *are* several among us who are "fashion plates" , but that would tend to be the exception, and would tend to point more to an individual with "big city" connections or who works in a large metropolitan area). For the most part, Midwesterners prefer to "stand out" in other ways -- not necessarily by making fashion statements (and nothing wrong with making such statements, either!).

To sum up (and yes, this is a "humongous" generalization; I speak *only* from many years of experience living in various Midwestern states, and from being a rather sharp observer [if I say so myself -- though am far, far from being a part of any SEAL team or Delta Force -- with nods to @Charlot123!]):

Most potential Midwestern-based suspects in this case can, and do, handily "blend in" without even trying to. Even an experienced, sharp-eyed observer would have to already have "insider information" OR a strong "hinky sense" (or possess both) to so much as *guess*. And *that* is -- all JMOO -- why, and how, Abby's and Libby's killer has gone undetected for so long.
--
ETA: Do *I* think the killer is still alive? Absolutely.
*Where* do I think the killer is ATM? Sitting right over there -- not far from you: at the park, at a cafe, at the drive-through lane where you're getting your morning coffee... Oh, yeah, and skimming this thread from time to time, too... (Yup -- intended to creep you out with just *how* "ordinary" he looks.)

I'm no learned Midwestener, but I'm distrustful and my hinky sense is going off very fast sometimes. People around me would think, I'm nuts, when I have a reason for expressing one of my "sharp-eyed" ("sharp-felt") observations.

You are right: with the perp standing in a "keep-distance-row" in front of Starbucks for a grab-and-go, I wouldn't recognize him, if he is wearing a cap of some sort and if he behaves inconspicuously and relatively silent. If wearing no cap and maybe ie. a blazer, you can't be sure, I wouldn't recognize him. Okay, sunglasses might be an obstacle - I have to have a look at his eyes. Indeed, I'm sure, he wouldn't look at me one single time, so the chance would be minimal for seeing his eyes.
He is skimming this thread also, you think? He is ashamed, embarrassed not a bit to pursue his abnormal hobby?? - He seems to be grammatically and in terms of punctuation very much on the ball - so, he will have no enjoyment with reading some posts like mine. Maybe, he is tolerant.
Wonder, what he can't tolerate on certain female teenagers or women. The "thorn in his eye" - what exactly is it?

- Justice for Abby and Libby from Delphi, the Iowa cousins, the Camp Gladiator and some more. -

 

[Ozoner]

@Tiger Stripes, I have lived on both coasts and at Midwest, for only a year.

The only group I don’t know much about are the Southerners. So all my observations are “minus the Southerners”.

But as to getting the “insider information”, Midwesterners are the most talkative, gossipy, blurty-out bunch of the whole country. Their filter is set very differently from the coastal ones. They like to surprise you with their help. It is not true that they don’t like to dress, but they are very conservative in their attire. At NW, they’d stay out by virtue of their “proper dresses”. They like to give unsolicited advises, too, and they are pretty good-natured.

(I myself am like this, so Midwest was easy. But - to survive at Midwest, you really have to keep with the Joneses).

Given this, a Midwesterner would probably stand out by being too quiet, closed, not curious and not talkative.

And this is why this case is so surprising to me. Even transplants from Midwest don’t like to discuss it (but they criticize the police). As to people who live at Midwest, and are unrelated to Delphi, they visibly yearn to drop this topic as soon as they can.

Unusual. JMO, and of course, we can not generalize.

No Midwesterner would ever say "at Midwest." We would say, "in the Midwest." (Please don't take offense at this question, but is English a second language for you?)

 

[Betty P]

Oh yes- GH has absolutely been approved as a trusted source. He is actually a member here on WS (just in case someone is not aware)!

I posted the YouTube video a couple of pages back, where "Dennis" called in to a live GH show. While "Dennis" did indicate touch DNA was found on the shoulder area of one of the Girls' sweatshirt, he admitted he was told this information by a third party. I am not disputing that it may very well be true. However, just because an unknown person calls in to a live show (of a trusted source), it doesn't mean the information being provided is accurate. Again- the information could be exactly right; playing devil's advocate here. But until LE confirms (or denies) the information, we really have no way of knowing for certain.

There was also an episode where GH interviewed Libby's grandparents in which they admitted there was DNA evidence. It was a good interview, rather extensive. Her grandparents were very helpful and as forthcoming as possible.