Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #123

[Sillybilly]

Yes, the former things you would do because they are the most utilitarian way to do what you want (walking to your car and getting into it). The latter (the signatures) would be the things you almost could not control yourself from doing, because they arise from deep psychological fantasies or needs/desires that are specific to you. However, the way you express those desires could change over time and then you might have slightly different habits (signatures).

<bbm>

It's actually the other way around ... the MO may change, but not the signature. From Psychology Today ...

Serial Killers: Modus Operandi, Signature, Staging & Posing
Understanding and classifying serial killer crime scenes.

The essential core of the signature, when present, is that it is always the same because it emerges out of an offender’s fantasies that evolved long before killing his first victim. The signature may involve mutilation or dismemberment of the victim’s body. The signature of Jack the Ripper was the extensive hacking and mutilation of his victims’ bodies that characterized all of his murders.

 

[Sillybilly]

That one of the girls was forced to watch is rumor.

Please do not bring rumors to WS and discuss them. Thanks.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

What you stated is plausible, but it isn't an argument against the point that I made. Regardless of whether the girls were slapped, threatened with a gun, or whatever, gaining control of them was the biggest challenge. Their behavior could not have been predicted with absolute certainty. If there had been a second perp, that's the part of the crime that would have demanded the participation of that second perp. Odds are that BG handled the most difficult part of the crime alone because he was alone.

Quoted bbm

Just throwing a possible scenario into the mix here that could dictate their behavior....and involve a second person.

Perp 1 is the man videoed on the bridge and the person who directed them 'down the hill' for them to go and see Perp 2, whom they were there to 'meet'.

A ruse of sorts.

Just a thought....JMO
Edited for clarity.

 

[Yemelyan]

<bbm>

It's actually the other way around ... the MO may change, but not the signature. From Psychology Today ...

Serial Killers: Modus Operandi, Signature, Staging & Posing
Understanding and classifying serial killer crime scenes.

The essential core of the signature, when present, is that it is always the same because it emerges out of an offender’s fantasies that evolved long before killing his first victim. The signature may involve mutilation or dismemberment of the victim’s body. The signature of Jack the Ripper was the extensive hacking and mutilation of his victims’ bodies that characterized all of his murders.

Not to be argumentative but there must be some disagreement among psychologists about whether or not signatures can change. Where I got my info was this article which came from the same publication you quoted:

Serial Killer Signatures

Quoting just a snippet of this article:

"Signature analysis has not been subjected to many systematic studies, and so a myth has arisen that signatures always present in the same way. In fact, as many as fifty percent of offenders have admitted that they experiment with their rituals. A primal compulsion might drive them, but different victims and different situations present new opportunities to tinker."

It sounds like it would be fair to say that the underlying urge (or imprint) that drives the signature is probably not going to change very much, but the signature itself MAY evolve over time as the offender engages in more elaborate or different fantasies.

 

[Sillybilly]

Yemelyan, I'm sorry I wasn't specific enough when I said MO changes but signature doesn't. I think we are both in agreement that the underlying reason for the signature does not change, only that the manifested components of it may be changed, revised or tweaked, but it will still remain based on that deep psychological need. (That's what I meant when I said signature doesn't change).

from "The Killer Across the Table" (John Douglas, Criminal Profiler)

Sometimes there’s a fine line between an MO and a signature.

I’ve found that signature is a more reliable guide to the behavior of serial offenders than an MO. That’s because the MO evolves, while the emotional reasoning that triggers the signature doesn’t. The method a killer uses to get women into his van may change, but the fact that he always tortures them once they’re inside stays the same.

One subject covered the faces of his victims. That was his signature. So you look for that in other cases in order to tie them together. A bomber used to spray black paint over the components inside his bombs. It wasn’t necessary — it didn’t make the bombs any better. I don’t know what it meant, but he did it anyway. He felt the need to do it.

 

[Yemelyan]

Yemelyan, I'm sorry I wasn't specific enough when I said MO changes but signature doesn't. I think we are both in agreement that the underlying reason for the signature does not change, only that the manifested components of it may be changed, revised or tweaked, but it will still remain based on that deep psychological need. (That's what I meant when I said signature doesn't change).

from "The Killer Across the Table" (John Douglas, Criminal Profiler)

Sometimes there’s a fine line between an MO and a signature.

I’ve found that signature is a more reliable guide to the behavior of serial offenders than an MO. That’s because the MO evolves, while the emotional reasoning that triggers the signature doesn’t. The method a killer uses to get women into his van may change, but the fact that he always tortures them once they’re inside stays the same.

One subject covered the faces of his victims. That was his signature. So you look for that in other cases in order to tie them together. A bomber used to spray black paint over the components inside his bombs. It wasn’t necessary — it didn’t make the bombs any better. I don’t know what it meant, but he did it anyway. He felt the need to do it.

@sillybilly Gotcha, yes, we are in agreement on that. The trigger, imprint, if you will, of the signature is not likely to change. The offender could tinker with how he expresses it.

 

[somequestions]

DNA is such a fascinating subject. Especially in this case.

My belief (and I could absolutely be wrong), is that perhaps the Parabon sketch looks nothing like the two sketches that have already been released. Rather than releasing a third sketch (which would further confuse the public), LE may be holding onto it.

I think it would be difficult to release a 3rd sketch under any circumstances at this point in the investigation. People would start talking about whether they are looking at Bridge Guy #1, Bridge Guy #2, or Bridge Guy #3. At the April 2019 press conference, when LE pointed at that sketch #2 and said that "this is the person responsible", I think that was the end of the sketches.

Now, as the case approaches 3 1/2 years without a resolution, people are going to definitely wonder what is going on. So there must be a reason LE was so sure of the second sketch. I know others may not agree, but the irony of the sketches released so far is that they may actually be helping the killer. The video is of poor quality, but the sketches could be causing people to focus on the sketches and not on the video.

I think this may be the largest case on Websleuths in terms of threads? People on here have read about and know the particulars about this case. But if I never heard about this case, and then I saw a poster about it with the second sketch and video still, I would be on the lookout for a young guy who looked something like the second sketch.

 

[Marzipan]

I think it would be difficult to release a 3rd sketch under any circumstances at this point in the investigation. People would start talking about whether they are looking at Bridge Guy #1, Bridge Guy #2, or Bridge Guy #3. At the April 2019 press conference, when LE pointed at that sketch #2 and said that "this is the person responsible", I think that was the end of the sketches.

Now, as the case approaches 3 1/2 years without a resolution, people are going to definitely wonder what is going on. So there must be a reason LE was so sure of the second sketch. I know others may not agree, but the irony of the sketches released so far is that they may actually be helping the killer. The video is of poor quality, but the sketches could be causing people to focus on the sketches and not on the video.

I think this may be the largest case on Websleuths in terms of threads? People on here have read about and know the particulars about this case. But if I never heard about this case, and then I saw a poster about it with the second sketch and video still, I would be on the lookout for a young guy who looked something like the second sketch.

Hat or no hat on BG has been talked about a lot but it’s really important because if it’s not a hat we know more about his looks—that his hair is ash brown and thick and we know how it parts. If he is wearing a hat, there’s a broader field of potential suspects. If that’s his hair, it rules out many (unless hair is a disguise/wig, which I doubt).
I definitely want focus on the video more than sketches. Edited to add: I’m not really trying to bring back the hat or no hat loop...but I guess I am, although my question is more like, is that his hair or not?

 

[Charlot123]

Yes, the former things you would do because they are the most utilitarian way to do what you want (walking to your car and getting into it). The latter (the signatures) would be the things you almost could not control yourself from doing, because they arise from deep psychological fantasies or needs/desires that are specific to you. However, the way you express those desires could change over time and then you might have slightly different habits (signatures).

The way you are describing the signatures is interesting.

It does sound like OCD-type behavior. The most interesting, OCD is “ego-dystonic”, people don’t want to go through it, but almost “have to”, and feel relieved when it is done. I can only imagine that the relief felt by the SKs is the biggest, probably, immediately after the murders.

Lots of SK behaviors - imaginary world, “collections”, OCD-like signatures that change with time - remind me another condition, associated with introversion. And yet, many of SKs are social enough to be married, have cursory friends, even being community leaders. An interesting combination.

 

[Charlot123]

LE have said there is DNA. What type, from whom, etc, they have not revealed.

If I recall from MSM articles early on, they did look into John Miller. But it's been so long since that's been mentioned, I would have to imagine he was ruled out. It blows my mind that he apparently only offended once.

Miller did lots of nasty things around the killing place, but maybe it was an attempt at relief without more killings. Although I do think he killed more, but not many. GRK, who killed many, explained that his necrophilia was an attempt to avoid killing even more women.

 

[Falling Down]

In recent times some folks have asked about RL's dog. This image is from an interview he did with RTV6 in the days after the murders, a cameraman is down the hill, RL's dog is on a trail which leads to the area LE taped off. The reporter took this image and uploaded it to Twitter.

<modsnip: Image removed due to no link. ALL images require a link to the source>

OK instead I'll post a video from Feb. 16th from WTHR, RL's dog can be seen at :31, plus some sharp images of crime scene stuff and other property is shown.

 

[sunshineray]

I wanted to bring up a thought on the timeline of the crime itself. I have seen a lot of posters say things like "BG didn't have a lot of time with them" and then going on to speculate about what the short time period between when they probably encountered him on the bridge and the time that the crime was completed means. I've seen speculation like "he killed them quickly, so they must have tried to escape," "he didn't have time to do what he planned to do." Did you know that a major study in child abduction murders showed that in a typical abduction/murder of a child, the time between abduction and murder is very, very short? The study I read analyzed 733 cases and almost 70% of the time, the victim was murdered within 1 hour from the moment they encountered their abductor. In almost 1/4 of these 733 cases, the victim was murdered within the first half hour. I had been thinking the short time frame was an oddity about the Delphi case but actually it is fairly typical, especially for a sexually motivated child abduction and murder.

That GH video I've mentioned before that had a local caller GH said he trusted who talked about the touch DNA collected on one of the girl's sweatshirts, that local also mentioned that LE believed the killer was with the girls for 45 mins. They thought BG was still on scene after DG arrived.

 

[sunshineray]

This article is 2 years old now. Reading it once again, it’s possible Leazenby is dodging the fact a full and complete DNA profile wasn’t obtained.

Familial DNA search might unlock Delphi killer's identity

And this one is from Jan 2019 talking about right before Christmas 2018...talking "more evidence sent [to Quantico]" and "DNA testing research". I've wondered if CeCe Moore was involved with that data.

Cops Send Evidence To FBI In Indiana Teens Abigail Williams & Liberty German’s Murder

 

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[somequestions]

Hat or no hat on BG has been talked about a lot but it’s really important because if it’s not a hat we know more about his looks—that his hair is ash brown and thick and we know how it parts. If he is wearing a hat, there’s a broader field of potential suspects. If that’s his hair, it rules out many (unless hair is a disguise/wig, which I doubt).
I definitely want focus on the video more than sketches. Edited to add: I’m not really trying to bring back the hat or no hat loop...but I guess I am, although my question is more like, is that his hair or not?

The man in the video from Liberty German's phone seems to clearly have some type of hat on his head. I think there is a tendency to focus on the sketches now because the video is of poor quality. But whether he has a hat or does not have a hat on according to the sketches, it seems like people are registering the images of the sketches in their minds as being the correct description of the man on the bridge. I would do the same thing if I never heard about this case and randomly came across one of the posters of the second sketch after the April 2019 press conference.

 

[Yemelyan]

That GH video I've mentioned before that had a local caller GH said he trusted who talked about the touch DNA collected on one of the girl's sweatshirts, that local also mentioned that LE believed the killer was with the girls for 45 mins. They thought BG was still on scene after DG arrived.

I have always thought it possible that BG was with them after DG arrived, just because I don't think DG moved around that fast looking for them (he didn't know the danger they were in at that point after all and there are other reasons I think that).

However, even if LE are wrong (or that caller's info is wrong) and the time BG spent with his victims is MUCH less - it's still relatively average for a child abduction murder!

I had been thinking, well, if he only had 25 minutes to abduct them and commit the crime, that makes this case an extreme outlier in its quickness. No - it would be fairly typical according to that analysis of 733 other child abduction murders.

 

[JnRyan]

I don't believe there is a strong possibility that someone somewhere at this point in time 'knows' who did this. However, I do think there is someone who 'suspects'. The last I saw there were 50K in tips. So with that volume I think I'm safe in saying there are MANY who suspect someone.

With this possibly being about suspicion rather than solid knowledge there has to be some degree of doubt and now we have how comfortable our potential tipster is with calling this in. In play is the relationship with the suspect. If he is the odd guy in the apartment complex that doubt would seem to less of factor than if he were the tipsters best friend or cousin who was on hand during tough times.

Where am I going with this? LE needs that one tip to break this unless the killer commits another crime and their DNA is a match. LE is up against that doubt in someone's mind. While we and LE can sit in our comfortable homes and safely say, "You have to do the right thing", it is ultimately the tipster that has to confront his or her doubts and not us. LE has really contributed to the doubt factor. By releasing a 2nd sketch two years later LE has raised the doubt factor. For someone to know the suspected killer was not around the day before Valentine's Day over 3 years ago narrows it down to someone close to the killer. IOW, we may not have any recollection of where that odd guy in the next apartment was, but we might if it was a close friend or relative. Add to that another approach by LE and that is ISP Superintendent Carter's statement on the sketches. Like a 'sketch is not a photograph' and 'he may look like something in between the two sketches' and 'his face may have features from each sketch.' Wow! When we are trying to overcome that doubt factor those statements don't appear to help our potential tipster's confidence and may actually erode their confidence.

I'm starting to believe this case is going to solved through technology and not a tip. I think of the Tara Grinstead case where the killer apparently suffered a lot of remorse and eventually confided in a girl friend. But I don't believe that is going to happen here. I just hope that technology breakthrough doesn't come at the price of another victims life.

 

[Maplesyrup]

The man in the video from Liberty German's phone seems to clearly have some type of hat on his head. I think there is a tendency to focus on the sketches now because the video is of poor quality. But whether he has a hat or does not have a hat on according to the sketches, it seems like people are registering the images of the sketches in their minds as being the correct description of the man on the bridge. I would do the same thing if I never heard about this case and randomly came across one of the posters of the second sketch after the April 2019 press conference.

Hat or no hat on BG has been talked about a lot but it’s really important because if it’s not a hat we know more about his looks—that his hair is ash brown and thick and we know how it parts. If he is wearing a hat, there’s a broader field of potential suspects. If that’s his hair, it rules out many (unless hair is a disguise/wig, which I doubt).
I definitely want focus on the video more than sketches. Edited to add: I’m not really trying to bring back the hat or no hat loop...but I guess I am, although my question is more like, is that his hair or not?

Well, regarding hair [my experience]... If it is indeed his hair, it looks to be pretty thick [IMO]. I have a son whose hair is very thick and tends to have small curls in the back if he allows it to grow [during the pandemic lockdown... no haircut... so I had a chance to see this]. My son's hair is dark brown and thick and tends to grow forward. He doesn't like it that way and has always kept it cut very short and has thinning shears used on it with each haircut [every 3 weeks]. The result is hair that looks half as thick and it becomes a light sandy color. My son's natural hair color is dark brown. If this is BG's hair, a simple short hair cut and thinning shears could totally change the look of his hair style, thickness, color. Sadly, the hair from the photos won't help much now if he buzzed his hair off or keeps it really short. All IMO.

 

[Ozoner]

It's difficult to reconcile either sketch with the video. BG's face appears to be broader and chubbier than sketch number 2—it almost looks like the face of a teen or early twenty-something whose face hasn't yet acquired the hard lines of adulthood. That may be an optical illusion, though. It's been pointed out many times that the stills of BG are tantamount to Rorschach ink blots.

 

[JnRyan]

It's difficult to reconcile either sketch with the video. BG's face appears to be broader and chubbier than sketch number 2—it almost looks like the face of a teen or early twenty-something whose face hasn't yet acquired the hard lines of adulthood. That may be an optical illusion, though. It's been pointed out many times that the stills of BG are tantamount to Rorschach ink blots.

I thought the same thing when the sketch #2 came out. It is just as likely to be a 17 year old as someone in their late 20's. But that is just what I see. I was 40 when I was last carded at a grocery store for buying beer because the clerk honestly thought I wasn't 21. No one ahead of me in line was carded.