Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #123

[JudgeJudi]

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #23
In and around post #891 very early began discussion of what “the twist” implied including Leazenby’s actual words. Was it something unique or simply the fact Leazenby had never been involved in a double murder of two teens, one of the victims capturing images and audio of the killer?

Although it appears the video is no longer available, he was quoted as saying this -
“Sheriff Leazenby: “This ones ’got a whole twist to it that even I as a 30 year veteran have never seen.””

The video hasn't been taken down. I agree that he may be referring to the fact that a murder victim has audio and visual of her killer, but this is only speculation.

Michael Stroup introduces himself to Sheriff Leazenby at the very beginning and @ 9:00 Leazenby says:

“This one’s just – it’s got a whole new – it’s got a twist to it that even I as a 30 year veteran have never seen.”

Prosecutor Ives said in the Scene of the Crime podcast (Episode 3):

“There is a lot of crime scene evidence. Some of it is somewhat odd. ... There is a lot of *unique facts there. Honestly, I’m shocked, and I promise you, police are shocked that it wasn’t solved in a day or two. The crime scene was physically strange, but that’s for the State Police to decide what to release."

* unique – the only one of its kind, unlike anything else.

I think it‘s quite possible that Ives may have been referring to the signatures.

Having audio and video were no doubt two of the things leading LE to believe that the case would be wrapped up quickly, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s something else, apart from DNA.

It's also possible that the “twist” was either something about the bodies or perhaps something found at the crime scene, but unfortunately, once again, all we can do is speculate.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

I'm sorry I just think its an indent or something similar. But that's my opinion. I also feel the judge matter does not belong on this thread, its a side matter, and he is most likely being ridiculed/shamed enough for it, and resigned. Let's not add to that here; but like I say, ask the moderators. I will of course go with their decision.

I think discussing the Judge is appropriate because it is indicative of an underlying crime existence in local government.

<mod snip>

 

[JudgeJudi]

Just an interesting bit of info about the trail. I’m not so sure it was as deserted as some may think.

AG first met Libby in kindergarten. As teens and classmates at Delphi Middle School they remained close. They played volleyball and softball together and in 2017 they were in science bowl.

"[Libby] was my locker buddy. We were by each other every single day ... she was considered my twin because we look so much alike. My dad, her grandpa and grandma got us mixed up."

As a good friend since early childhood, I don’t believe she would lie about the following:

“The trail where Abby and Libby went missing is usually pretty busy. It’s out in the middle of nowhere but it's a nice walk down. My sister had her senior pictures taken there. … [It's a] great place for pictures.”

A woman brought two teddy bears and placed them among the display of flowers and balloons already there and also left the girls an Easter bunny for the upcoming holiday. “When my kids were little, they walked over here. They did everything without a parent, unsupervised.”

Jake Adams, director of Delphi’s community development said to his knowledge there's never been any concern about security on the trails, and he said children commonly walk them without supervision.

Mystery surrounds Indiana murder of 2 teen girls: ‘We cannot fail on this case’

 

[SeattleStew]

1839 Fouts cabin on the move | Carroll County Comet

 

[MistyWaters]

The video hasn't been taken down. I agree that he may be referring to the fact that a murder victim has audio and visual of her killer, but this is only speculation.

Michael Stroup introduces himself to Sheriff Leazenby at the very beginning and @ 9:00 Leazenby says:

“This one’s just – it’s got a whole new – it’s got a twist to it that even I as a 30 year veteran have never seen.”

Prosecutor Ives said in the Scene of the Crime podcast (Episode 3):

“There is a lot of crime scene evidence. Some of it is somewhat odd. ... There is a lot of *unique facts there. Honestly, I’m shocked, and I promise you, police are shocked that it wasn’t solved in a day or two. The crime scene was physically strange, but that’s for the State Police to decide what to release."

* unique – the only one of its kind, unlike anything else.

I think it‘s quite possible that Ives may have been referring to the signatures.

Having audio and video were no doubt two of the things leading LE to believe that the case would be wrapped up quickly, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s something else, apart from DNA.

It's also possible that the “twist” was either something about the bodies or perhaps something found at the crime scene, but unfortunately, once again, all we can do is speculate.

Thank you for taking the time to find the exact quote!

 

[IceIce9]

Just an interesting bit of info about the trail. I’m not so sure it was as deserted as some may think.

AG first met Libby in kindergarten. As teens and classmates at Delphi Middle School they remained close. They played volleyball and softball together and in 2017 they were in science bowl.

"[Libby] was my locker buddy. We were by each other every single day ... she was considered my twin because we look so much alike. My dad, her grandpa and grandma got us mixed up."

As a good friend since early childhood, I don’t believe she would lie about the following:

“The trail where Abby and Libby went missing is usually pretty busy. It’s out in the middle of nowhere but it's a nice walk down. My sister had her senior pictures taken there. … [It's a] great place for pictures.”

A woman brought two teddy bears and placed them among the display of flowers and balloons already there and also left the girls an Easter bunny for the upcoming holiday. “When my kids were little, they walked over here. They did everything without a parent, unsupervised.”

Jake Adams, director of Delphi’s community development said to his knowledge there's never been any concern about security on the trails, and he said children commonly walk them without supervision.

Mystery surrounds Indiana murder of 2 teen girls: ‘We cannot fail on this case’

The trail isn’t deserted. It is a popular hangout for teenagers, and a common place to hike for adults and families.

BBM

 

[Laughing]

1839 Fouts cabin on the move | Carroll County Comet

Love this!!!

 

[Charlot123]

I agree a step or two more, even a word or two more. Even if they found shoe prints, the shoe/boot size...something more is needed for someone less close to the killer to recognize him. It's obvious those close are either oblivious or unwilling to step up for justice. If the latter shame on them for protecting a killer.

What really bothers me is that the BG’s face, seen from a distance and without manipulation, does not resemble any sketch at all. Moreover, it doesn’t resemble any portraits of the Delphians that I have seen. It doesn’t resemble any of potential my own POIs. And it is not young. It is not of the ethnic type that I see in Delphi, I have once posted where I saw many people of such a type, but it is not Delphian. Yet both sketches look like the Delphian guys do.

DC said something about “don’t look at the head”. (When asking to look at mannerisms on the video). What does he mean? That the person was masked? Or something else?

Ironically, out of all photos that had flooded the Inet, there was only one, random, resembling BG, but the person was sitting on a bench, and two things were instantly obvious. That he was old, taller than BG on the bridge, and has an interesting spine curvature - an old spine. Now, that could explain the gait and the elbow that he holds oddly, on the bridge (JMO), but such a person probably can not run, and outrun, two young girls.

Am I the only one not seeing BG in either sketch?

 

[sunshineray]

I am going with oblivious.....oblivious gamers.

You think the gaming community is a big part of the killer's world?

 

[sunshineray]

What really bothers me is that the BG’s face, seen from a distance and without manipulation, does not resemble any sketch at all. Moreover, it doesn’t resemble any portraits of the Delphians that I have seen. It doesn’t resemble any of potential my own POIs. And it is not young. It is not of the ethnic type that I see in Delphi, I have once posted where I saw many people of such a type, but it is not Delphian. Yet both sketches look like the Delphian guys do.

DC said something about “don’t look at the head”. (When asking to look at mannerisms on the video). What does he mean? That the person was masked? Or something else?

Ironically, out of all photos that had flooded the Inet, there was only one, random, resembling BG, but the person was sitting on a bench, and two things were instantly obvious. That he was old, taller than BG on the bridge, and has an interesting spine curvature - an old spine. Now, that could explain the gait and the elbow that he holds oddly, on the bridge (JMO), but such a person probably can not run, and outrun, two young girls.

Am I the only one not seeing BG in either sketch?

It's just too hard to tell with the bad quality video at such a distance. I will say though that there are quite a number of Delphians that I've seen who favor the sketches in some way. So I've had the opposite reaction you've had.

 

[sunshineray]

The video hasn't been taken down. I agree that he may be referring to the fact that a murder victim has audio and visual of her killer, but this is only speculation.

Michael Stroup introduces himself to Sheriff Leazenby at the very beginning and @ 9:00 Leazenby says:

“This one’s just – it’s got a whole new – it’s got a twist to it that even I as a 30 year veteran have never seen.”

Prosecutor Ives said in the Scene of the Crime podcast (Episode 3):

“There is a lot of crime scene evidence. Some of it is somewhat odd. ... There is a lot of *unique facts there. Honestly, I’m shocked, and I promise you, police are shocked that it wasn’t solved in a day or two. The crime scene was physically strange, but that’s for the State Police to decide what to release."

* unique – the only one of its kind, unlike anything else.

I think it‘s quite possible that Ives may have been referring to the signatures.

Having audio and video were no doubt two of the things leading LE to believe that the case would be wrapped up quickly, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s something else, apart from DNA.

It's also possible that the “twist” was either something about the bodies or perhaps something found at the crime scene, but unfortunately, once again, all we can do is speculate.

Having a lot of crime scene evidence can mean so many different things as simple as the way in which the area of nature was disturbed, was it messy, was it neat. It could also mean with the words "unique facts" throw in how that area of nature was used or manipulated in a way not seen by the Sheriff or Prosecutor before. I just wish, while keeping details that only the killer knows secret, that LE would choose some facts of the scene that do show signature. It could be the thing that makes someone realize that important fact they know about someone...the killer. AJMO

 

[spivey]

I think the fact that he is walking on a bridge with sizable gaps in between each railroad tie caused him to alter his normal gait.

 

[Boxer]

What really bothers me is that the BG’s face, seen from a distance and without manipulation, does not resemble any sketch at all. Moreover, it doesn’t resemble any portraits of the Delphians that I have seen. It doesn’t resemble any of potential my own POIs. And it is not young. It is not of the ethnic type that I see in Delphi, I have once posted where I saw many people of such a type, but it is not Delphian. Yet both sketches look like the Delphian guys do.

DC said something about “don’t look at the head”. (When asking to look at mannerisms on the video). What does he mean? That the person was masked? Or something else?

Ironically, out of all photos that had flooded the Inet, there was only one, random, resembling BG, but the person was sitting on a bench, and two things were instantly obvious. That he was old, taller than BG on the bridge, and has an interesting spine curvature - an old spine. Now, that could explain the gait and the elbow that he holds oddly, on the bridge (JMO), but such a person probably can not run, and outrun, two young girls.

Am I the only one not seeing BG in either sketch?

MOO what saw from the photo then the woers way they released animated video is a 40ish white guy with a mean and piercing look. The picelation ia too great for detail so I could buy that he is younger and lighter than he looks.

40s, not homeless, dressed to blend, except the boots/shoes which look expensive to me. Just a first impression.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think the fact that he is walking on a bridge with sizable gaps in between each railroad tie caused him to alter his normal gait.

I agree and as the suspect is looking downward, he’s surely doing what anyone would do when walking on gapping and rotting railroad ties over a high bridge - that would be to focus on the area which will support placement of each foot. That’s bound to alter one’s normal gait including the length of stride. It’s impossible to walk normally over railway ties, even on a railway.

But I do think many people believe they recognize the suspect on the bridge and the challenge for LE is lack of evidence connecting any one person to actually committing the murders. A tip that someone resembles the suspect in appearance and a tip from someone who knows who the suspect is are two different things.

JMO

 

[rosesfromangels]

The video hasn't been taken down. I agree that he may be referring to the fact that a murder victim has audio and visual of her killer, but this is only speculation.

Michael Stroup introduces himself to Sheriff Leazenby at the very beginning and @ 9:00 Leazenby says:

“This one’s just – it’s got a whole new – it’s got a twist to it that even I as a 30 year veteran have never seen.”

Prosecutor Ives said in the Scene of the Crime podcast (Episode 3):

“There is a lot of crime scene evidence. Some of it is somewhat odd. ... There is a lot of *unique facts there. Honestly, I’m shocked, and I promise you, police are shocked that it wasn’t solved in a day or two. The crime scene was physically strange, but that’s for the State Police to decide what to release."

* unique – the only one of its kind, unlike anything else.

I think it‘s quite possible that Ives may have been referring to the signatures.

Having audio and video were no doubt two of the things leading LE to believe that the case would be wrapped up quickly, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s something else, apart from DNA.

It's also possible that the “twist” was either something about the bodies or perhaps something found at the crime scene, but unfortunately, once again, all we can do is speculate.

I am already feeling sorry for the jurors that will sit on this case.

I would like to see the Judge put a gag order on the specifics of how these children were found, and the details of the condition of their remains. We the public, do not need to know those details, and I'd like to preserve some dignity for the children in death, and minimize further trauma for the families. The only thing releasing the details of their remains will do, is serve to ignite copycats, and feed the prurient interest of the gore seekers.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Nerissa]

Throwing this out there:

If there was DNA of the perp: don't you think this case would be solved already - ?

IF DNA ought to solve it, but hasn't: why not?

Suggests to me that this killer has not previously, and/or possibly since, committed a crime that requires DNA samples...

It would also suggest any locals on LE's 'radars' are not the perp: they'd get that DNA if so...

The perp is utterly outside the target area of LE & speculation

OR

There is no DNA of the perp....

JMO

 

[rosesfromangels]

Throwing this out there:

If there was DNA of the perp: don't you think this case would be solved already - ?

IF DNA ought to solve it, but hasn't: why not?

Suggests to me that this killer has not previously, and/or possibly since, committed a crime that requires DNA samples...

It would also suggest any locals on LE's 'radars' are not the perp: they'd get that DNA if so...

The perp is utterly outside the target area of LE & speculation

OR

There is no DNA of the perp....

JMO

Could be a weak or otherwise degraded sample.

 

[Yemelyan]

Throwing this out there:

If there was DNA of the perp: don't you think this case would be solved already - ?

This was my thinking three years ago but my opinion on this has evolved.

My first assumption was: a crime like this (IMO it's a sexual homicide) MUST leave the offender's DNA. However, in a landmark study of child abduction murders, it was shown that a little more than half of cases yielded DNA evidence from the scene. My conclusion: it's not as common to have a perfect sample of a perpetrator's DNA as numerous tv shows and books would lead you to believe. In addition, the same article indicated that the presence of forensic evidence from a scene does not increase the solvability of a child abduction murder very much. Seems counter intuitive but the factor that accounted for most solved cases was LE being able to discover the relationship between victim and offender. And if LE couldn't do that? They had a very hard road ahead of them.

My second assumption: if BG has committed previous crimes, then his DNA is in the system. I'm starting to have a lot less confidence in this. There are about 4,000 untested rape kits in Indiana alone, for one thing. For another, have you noticed how many times cold cases are eventually solved by hits in CODIS but the time lapsed between the offender's crimes are really huge? A typical timeline might be: unsolved murder from 2003, convicted of second murder in 2008, samples finally matched 2014. Not sure what's going on with CODIS but it's not a perfect or quick matching system, that's for sure, though I grant you it's the best we have right now.

My third assumption: if detectives get a DNA match on a suspect then they immediately arrest him and it goes to trial where it's a slam dunk. I'm starting to question this. The standard guide for LE investigating child abduction murders (Brown & Keppel, 2012) states:

"Research has shown that most criminal investigations do not rely on forensic evidence as a means to solve the case, but to bolster the detectives' chance to use that evidence to obtain a confession from the suspect..."

If this is so, then the actions of LE in keeping DNA information close to the vest in the Delphi case becomes 100% clear.

 

[Nerissa]

This was my thinking three years ago but my opinion on this has evolved.

My first assumption was: a crime like this (IMO it's a sexual homicide) MUST leave the offender's DNA. However, in a landmark study of child abduction murders, it was shown that a little more than half of cases yielded DNA evidence from the scene. My conclusion: it's not as common to have a perfect sample of a perpetrator's DNA as numerous tv shows and books would lead you to believe. In addition, the same article indicated that the presence of forensic evidence from a scene does not increase the solvability of a child abduction murder very much. Seems counter intuitive but the factor that accounted for most solved cases was LE being able to discover the relationship between victim and offender. And if LE couldn't do that? They had a very hard road ahead of them.

My second assumption: if BG has committed previous crimes, then his DNA is in the system. I'm starting to have a lot less confidence in this. There are about 4,000 untested rape kits in Indiana alone, for one thing. For another, have you noticed how many times cold cases are eventually solved by hits in CODIS but the time lapsed between the offender's crimes are really huge? A typical timeline might be: unsolved murder from 2003, convicted of second murder in 2008, samples finally matched 2014. Not sure what's going on with CODIS but it's not a perfect or quick matching system, that's for sure, though I grant you it's the best we have right now.

My third assumption: if detectives get a DNA match on a suspect then they immediately arrest him and it goes to trial where it's a slam dunk. I'm starting to question this. The standard guide for LE investigating child abduction murders (Brown & Keppel, 2012) states:

"Research has shown that most criminal investigations do not rely on forensic evidence as a means to solve the case, but to bolster the detectives' chance to use that evidence to obtain a confession from the suspect..."

If this is so, then the actions of LE in keeping DNA information close to the vest in the Delphi case becomes 100% clear.

Amazing post!

I, we, want this solved....I'm trying to get bare bones: & ask: why isn't it -?

 

[Yemelyan]

Amazing post!

I, we, want this solved....I'm trying to get bare bones: & ask: why isn't it -?

I want it solved too. Kudos to you for getting bare bones and asking this type of question. It's so easy on these boards to get wrapped up in ever greater flights of fantasy to explain the presumed lack of movement on the case.

I have been really delving into the research of criminologists on child abduction murders and the offenders who commit these types of crimes. I had the assumption that Abby and Libby's murders were way out of the ordinary - all the evidence it seemed they had, but still unsolved. Instead I found that the trajectory of this case is actually very typical for this type of crime if the offender was a stranger to them. So then that reminds me to be patient, to wait and watch.