Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #124

[Falling Down]

The April press conference was set for a Monday if I remember correctly. I suppose if they suspect a BG was say a hairdresser and has Mondays off he would be able to attend.
Or if they suspected he was a student with no Monday classes.

<modsnip>

I think some of the "timing" on the part of LE has some weight to it.

 

[sunshineray]

If the killer really was at the April 2019 press conference, then he really had to rush to get there. According to the HLN reporters the press conference was called at the last minute and they had to rush to get to Delphi, IN. In addition, the press conference was on Monday April 22, 2019, right after the Easter holiday weekend. So it seems like they wanted as many locals there as possible.

I think now all of this was just a ruse to try and get the killer to attend the press conference and make the general public think they were on to something.

Today I think the investigators in this case just sit around and go over tips they may have put to the side early on. Maybe a new tip comes in that looks interesting so they check that out. The investigation has gotten rather quiet.

So no, I do not think the killer was at the April 2019 press conference. I do not even think he was in the state of Indiana.

If the killer works and lives right in the Delphi area he would not have had to rush. If the killer, as has been discussed by ISP Carter at that April 2019 PC, wanted to keep abreast of LE's knowledge and was in a position to know the LE scuttlebutt, they could have had previous knowledge of the PC happening that day.

Like I touched on earlier, theses are just thoughts gleaned from reading many sources other than MM news.

 

[sunshineray]

Wow. That is one angry look on Carter's face!!

JMVHO.

ISP Carter was smouldering at that April 2019 PC. It's one of the things that made such an impression on me. It's one of the things that buoys there being a killer in the room. He was affected by more that the announcement of a change in direction. He acted like a man betrayed. AJMO

 

[Charlot123]

I have a nagging suspicion that this was a revenge crime against a very close relative to one of the girls. I do not know any of them personally and I’m not implying anything about their characters. This is/has been just one of those pit of the stomach nagging feelings, the kind you can’t seem to shake. You just never know what kind of person you might be crossing without even knowing it. Scary

Respectfully snipped by me.

If a revenge crime, then, likely, against a woman.

Just imagining how the guys would talk if planning a revenge against a guy. (Catch him, cut something off.) Catch the daughter? Unlikely. Maybe, the son, to cut off the male line, but the daughter? As a warning, maybe? “Next time, it will be you?” Not quite believable.

A retaliation against a woman is very possible, but then, sadly, I can see only one potential target. In this case, I simply don’t have enough information to comment on.

 

[Yemelyan]

I am going to re-post something that I believe is important enough to be on this thread. Obviously I didn't make it clear why it was on-topic so I'll be more explicit this time about why this matters for the Delphi murders.

The state of Virginia announced today that they finally cleared their entire backlog of untested rape kits, some of which go back many years. As a result of the testing, 851 new DNA profiles have been uploaded to national databases to be compared against current or future crimes, and 354 "hits" have been reported to jurisdictions for investigative follow-up.

Virginia eliminates huge backlog of untested rape kits

Here's why this matters for Abby and Libby:

Though we don't know whether the Delphi murders involved sexual assault, we do know from LE statements that there was DNA of some type. If it was the offender's DNA, isn't it exciting to think that there are now 851 more profiles it can be compared to? Just think of the possibilities if Indiana was to clear its backlog (it had almost 5,000 untested kits in 2018), as well as neighboring states like Ohio, Illinois, etc?

Research into murders, especially abduction murders involving children, shows that the majority of offenders do have a criminal record that is often mixed, involving sexual assaults against other children or women, other types of assault, etc. The clearing of any number of previously untested rape kits should be celebrated as an important step that brings LE closer to matching whatever DNA from the Delphi killer that they may have.

 

[Charlot123]

Just a question, how many think the killer really was at that April 2019 PC?

Not if he has a job.
People attending the conference have the time to burn.
The murderer’s behavior if he is uber-local would be totally unchanged from his routine. So if he works at Libby’s and Abby’s school, expect attendance. Women in church communities, yes. Priests, yes. But a farmer or a shop owner, or an accountant, or a judge, anyone thinking of his hourly wage, would not be there. Except for, maybe, attorneys and LE themselves. And or course, the retired and the nosy.

 

[Thelastleg]

The April press conference was set for a Monday if I remember correctly. I suppose if they suspect a BG was say a hairdresser and has Mondays off he would be able to attend.
Or if they suspected he was a student with no Monday classes.

<modsnip>

If it was called on a Monday, not sure of the local time perhaps they were looking at someone who should have been there for appearances sake and would raise suspicion if they weren't. Also if LE were making people sign in they wanted a sample of handwriting. Was a hand written note left at the crime scene? Who knows JMO

 

[Charlot123]

If it was called on a Monday, not sure of the local time perhaps they were looking at someone who should have been there for appearances sake and would raise suspicion if they weren't. Also if LE were making people sign in they wanted a sample of handwriting. Was a hand written note left at the crime scene? Who knows JMO

Maybe even to see if a rightie vs a leftie

 

[Deleted member 102539]

The April press conference was set for a Monday if I remember correctly. I suppose if they suspect a BG was say a hairdresser and has Mondays off he would be able to attend.
Or if they suspected he was a student with no Monday classes.

<modsnip>

It was a Monday like the day , when the crime went down.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

You are correct, many times crimes are not well thought out or even if they are...significant mistakes are made even in "successful" crimes. Criminals, even of major crimes like sexual offenses and murder, see scenarios in the course of their normal, every day routines and activities that present them with opportunities to act on their immediate urges. This is one of the reasons geographic profiling often works. And it leaves them open to making mistakes when they make spur of the moment decisions to act.

Even offenders who we think of as highly organized planners make unintended mistakes during the commission of their crimes. It's in my mind because I read the book American Predator recently, which profiled Israel Keyes. He planned his crimes meticulously, no one could argue that, and yet if you read about his kidnapping and murder of the victim who he abducted from a coffee kiosk, she even got away from him in the middle of a busy street. He tackled her to the ground in front of everyone but no one stopped to do anything. He put her in his truck right next to a police officer in a cruiser and he got away with it.

I'm of the opinion that BG didn't know who was in the houses nearby or who might observe him. He hoped to move quickly enough, I think, that witnesses would not be an issue. Just dumb luck that it worked for him on this particular day. IMO

last sentence bbm
.... although he made mistakes, as Carter said:
"Directly to the killer, who may be in this room, we've likely interviewed you or someone close to you," Indiana State Police Superintendent Doug Carter said at a news conference. “We have a witness. You made mistakes. We are coming for you and there's no place for a heartless coward like you to hide that gets his thrill from killing little girls.”

‘We believe you are hiding in plain sight’: Police release new sketch of Delphi teens’ killer

Maybe, the mistakes were made after the crime, in the following days/weeks. MOO

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I believe this may be the article where he says this.

Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana

And armchair detectives are even taking their interest in the case a step further by creating YouTube reenactments of the crime.

“[The videos] help us know that people don’t know [the true details], because the facts haven’t been released,” Holeman says. “People watch the news and think they are picking up on things, but it’s false. Nothing out there is accurate, which only leads to more false tips.”

Honestly, this is kind of a relief for me to be reminded of.

The idea of this a$$h*le getting off on seeing the entire thing reenacted accurately makes me feel even more hatred towards him.

JMO

bbm red
Maybe, the perp is getting off, because "nothing out there (reenactment) is accurate". Who knows ....

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Just a question, how many think the killer really was at that April 2019 PC?

He had an excuse (important appointment perhaps) not being there, I think, if he would have been asked at all.

 

[I wonder]

I've never taken the comment that BG may be at the press conference literally. I think it's more that someone who was there, has a link to him. So, BG is attending metaphorically. Alternatively, he was watching online or on television.

Either way, I feel it is likely to be an acknowledgement from LE that BG is following the case closely. It may be that LE/the FBI believe it is actually BG's view that he is 'there' for every press conference and every interview.

Obviously many criminals watch press conferences, but I think the way the communication to him changed, suggests an awareness that BG views this as being 'all because of and about him.'

I mean this in a more nuanced way, in that BG feels in some way that he is 'running the show' so to speak. This may be because he is feeling powerful because he hasn't been caught, but also it may be linked to the fact that so little information is being released.

There is clearly/presumably a very good reason why the amount of information given to the general public is so small. If BG is aware of this reason, (particularly if it is specific), it makes sense (to me at least), that he may enjoy watching LE stage press conferences, aware that the public are desperately hoping for progress to have been made, but confident that, for whatever reason, they will be disappointed. The resulting criticism of LE and more specifically Doug Carter, is likely to be the icing on the cake for BG.

It may be that Doug Carter is as useless as many people perceive him to be. He should have read a prepared speech at the last press conference, but he went off grid. He cries, mentions films and is arguably all over the place emotionally. Why? Is it because he is stubborn and doesn't like being told what to do, is he being unprofessional, or is it that he wants to catch BG and doesn't want to play the game (whatever it is) anymore? Could it be that we should be concentrating on what Carter does AND doesn't say, that he is the truth teller?
JMO MOO

 

[sunshineray]

He had an excuse (important appointment perhaps) not being there, I think, if he would have been asked at all.

I don't think that conference was by invitation, maybe the press was allocated but I anyone could attend if they wanted.

 

[sunshineray]

I am going to re-post something that I believe is important enough to be on this thread. Obviously I didn't make it clear why it was on-topic so I'll be more explicit this time about why this matters for the Delphi murders.

The state of Virginia announced today that they finally cleared their entire backlog of untested rape kits, some of which go back many years. As a result of the testing, 851 new DNA profiles have been uploaded to national databases to be compared against current or future crimes, and 354 "hits" have been reported to jurisdictions for investigative follow-up.

Virginia eliminates huge backlog of untested rape kits

Here's why this matters for Abby and Libby:

Though we don't know whether the Delphi murders involved sexual assault, we do know from LE statements that there was DNA of some type. If it was the offender's DNA, isn't it exciting to think that there are now 851 more profiles it can be compared to? Just think of the possibilities if Indiana was to clear its backlog (it had almost 5,000 untested kits in 2018), as well as neighboring states like Ohio, Illinois, etc?

Research into murders, especially abduction murders involving children, shows that the majority of offenders do have a criminal record that is often mixed, involving sexual assaults against other children or women, other types of assault, etc. The clearing of any number of previously untested rape kits should be celebrated as an important step that brings LE closer to matching whatever DNA from the Delphi killer that they may have.

If Virginia can get grant monies than every state should be entitled to them also. Why out of over 2,500 test kits were only 850 uploaded to the DNA database? Were the rest so degraded the DNA information was lost?

 

[sunshineray]

last sentence bbm
.... although he made mistakes, as Carter said:
"Directly to the killer, who may be in this room, we've likely interviewed you or someone close to you," Indiana State Police Superintendent Doug Carter said at a news conference. “We have a witness. You made mistakes. We are coming for you and there's no place for a heartless coward like you to hide that gets his thrill from killing little girls.”

‘We believe you are hiding in plain sight’: Police release new sketch of Delphi teens’ killer

Maybe, the mistakes were made after the crime, in the following days/weeks. MOO

Your last sentence, never gave much thought to that. Could very well be the case, in all sorts of ways. Interesting to consider the killer thinking they got away clean only to do or say something suspicious that someone witnessed.

 

[sunshineray]

I've never taken the comment that BG may be at the press conference literally. I think it's more that someone who was there, has a link to him. So, BG is attending metaphorically. Alternatively, he was watching online or on television.

Either way, I feel it is likely to be an acknowledgement from LE that BG is following the case closely. It may be that LE/the FBI believe it is actually BG's view that he is 'there' for every press conference and every interview.

Obviously many criminals watch press conferences, but I think the way the communication to him changed, suggests an awareness that BG views this as being 'all because of and about him.'

I mean this in a more nuanced way, in that BG feels in some way that he is 'running the show' so to speak. This may be because he is feeling powerful because he hasn't been caught, but also it may be linked to the fact that so little information is being released.

There is clearly/presumably a very good reason why the amount of information given to the general public is so small. If BG is aware of this reason, (particularly if it is specific), it makes sense (to me at least), that he may enjoy watching LE stage press conferences, aware that the public are desperately hoping for progress to have been made, but confident that, for whatever reason, they will be disappointed. The resulting criticism of LE and more specifically Doug Carter, is likely to be the icing on the cake for BG.

It may be that Doug Carter is as useless as many people perceive him to be. He should have read a prepared speech at the last press conference, but he went off grid. He cries, mentions films and is arguably all over the place emotionally. Why? Is it because he is stubborn and doesn't like being told what to do, is he being unprofessional, or is it that he wants to catch BG and doesn't want to play the game (whatever it is) anymore? Could it be that we should be concentrating on what Carter does AND doesn't say, that he is the truth teller?
JMO MOO

BBM

Good post. Sounds like a man possibly with connections who feels his status in the community makes him powerful. It put make LE at a disadvantage especially if the DNA they have isn't good enough for a full profile.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Either way, I feel it is likely to be an acknowledgement from LE that BG is following the case closely. It may be that LE/the FBI believe it is actually BG's view that he is 'there' for every press conference and every interview.

Obviously many criminals watch press conferences, but I think the way the communication to him changed, suggests an awareness that BG views this as being 'all because of and about him.'

I mean this in a more nuanced way, in that BG feels in some way that he is 'running the show' so to speak. This may be because he is feeling powerful because he hasn't been caught, but also it may be linked to the fact that so little information is being released.

Quoted snipped and bbm

In Yingying Zhang's case, her killer, B.C. attended her vigil in a jubilant mood and was recorded on a wire saying,
“They’re all here for me.”

Day 7: Ex-girlfriend says Brendt Christensen was ‘happy’ when they attended Yingying Zhang’s vigil | WGN-TV

It is very likely that the Delphi killer has the same delusional idea that everyone attending these Pressers is there for/because of him.

He may get a sense of gratification from the attention received afterwards almost as much as the murder act itself.

The power D.C. spoke of and you referenced may very well have come with the manner the person spoke about the case publicly after the murders happened.

All JMO

 

[Yemelyan]

If Virginia can get grant monies than every state should be entitled to them also. Why out of over 2,500 test kits were only 850 uploaded to the DNA database? Were the rest so degraded the DNA information was lost?

I'm going to speak about DNA collection in general (this comment would apply to how collection was done in Abby and Libby's case as well) as well as to your question.

Sometimes the material they were working with went back many years and collection standards were not the same as they are now. This affected the number of workable profiles.

Some of the profiles were heretofore unknown duplicates of offenders with profiles already in the database. This is because serial offenders were OVER represented in the sample, one of the very important findings that also occurred in Cleveland and Detroit when they tested their backlog.

The reason that may also apply to the Delphi case is this one: if the sample is partial or mixed, it may not have enough of the specific loci that are used to catalog DNA profiles in national databases like CODIS. CODIS uses 13 loci I believe. If a sample is mixed or has been exposed to water (for example...common in outdoor crime scenes like Abby and Libby's) it may not have enough info left.

Indiana had almost double the number of untested material as Virginia. So all things being basically equal, there could be almost 2000 DNA profiles sitting in untested kits that could contain the match for BG. And this doesn't count neighboring states of course.

IMO if you want the Delphi murders solved, one of the most important things you could do is advocate your state or city to test their backlog and bring these new profiles of offenders into the system so they can be compared.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I'm going to speak about DNA collection in general (this comment would apply to how collection was done in Abby and Libby's case as well) as well as to your question.

Sometimes the material they were working with went back many years and collection standards were not the same as they are now. This affected the number of workable profiles.

Some of the profiles were heretofore unknown duplicates of offenders with profiles already in the database. This is because serial offenders were OVER represented in the sample, one of the very important findings that also occurred in Cleveland and Detroit when they tested their backlog.

The reason that may also apply to the Delphi case is this one: if the sample is partial or mixed, it may not have enough of the specific loci that are used to catalog DNA profiles in national databases like CODIS. CODIS uses 13 loci I believe. If a sample is mixed or has been exposed to water (for example...common in outdoor crime scenes like Abby and Libby's) it may not have enough info left.

Indiana had almost double the number of untested material as Virginia. So all things being basically equal, there could be almost 2000 DNA profiles sitting in untested kits that could contain the match for BG. And this doesn't count neighboring states of course.

IMO if you want the Delphi murders solved, one of the most important things you could do is advocate your state or city to test their backlog and bring these new profiles of offenders into the system so they can be compared.

10,000 likes for this post. YES. Test those backlogged rape kits and you have a very good chance of finding BG.

Amateur opinion and speculation