Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #124

[MistyWaters]

People want to believe there's some huge, grand conspiracy at work, here. There isn't.

Far as Keyes is concerned, his killing career is a perfect example of a killer with relatively random victims. Like BG, he had his killing spots already picked out. Earlier in his killing career, he killed in large public parks, finding victims in out-of-the-way spots.

Big difference between that, where Keyes even admitted during questioning that he killed people earlier on that he figured would not be found, and there wouldn't be any big news or fuss made about them missing. They were missing, and never found.

BG wanted the victims in this case to be found, but long after he vanished from the immediate area. Hours later, in this case almost a full day after he first stalked the girls. He gets off on that thrill, the public's and the families' horror of realizing that two girls who had gone missing and were believed to not be in danger, were found murdered on someone's land not much more than 600 feet/200 meters from the bridge where they'd gone missing.

Keyes didn't want his earlier victims to be found or even reported about in the news. BG gets off on his victims being in the news, on Websleuths, on Reddit, on SM, etc. The horror is not only what he did, but the aftermath. That and BG killed juveniles. The public is infatuated with the crimes, almost 3.5 years later. BG loves that.

I believe there's way more to that or those aspects to his crimes, than conjuring up some big story on what may have happened that day.

JMO

Your comment about the killer thriving on the sensation this case has attracted reminds me of something else I’ve thought about.

The early news continually focused on increasingly growing reward day by day, week by week. Coverage if it was so successful that sometimes I got the impression FB saw solving this case similar to a lottery draw, find a facial resemblance and send in a ballot!

Rewards are a good thing but they’re usually not offered mere days into an investigation, a time when it’s hoped witnesses will willingly offer up information to LE to do the right thing, as opposed to doing it for payment. I also recall speculation early on over the possibility of good, fruitful tips being held back because the tipster might be waiting for the reward to grow even higher. The opposite could pose a problem as well, false information by people inserting themselves on the prospect of payback.

The reward isn’t talked about much any more but IMO it was a highly attention-grabbing component of media reporting especially during the first couple years.

So I would hope LE has scrutinized the reward organizers and donor list to ensure the perpetrator didn’t use it as a smokescreen to increase publicity while providing him with the appearance of honourable intentions. Rumour once had it the immediate family was collecting the reward money but as I recall, that was debunked as totally false. Who the actual organizers of the reward fund are has never been publicized, as far as I know.

JMO

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Maybe.

I think having glib and prepared answers would tell investigators experienced in interrogation something too, if that was the case.

I don't think he's an intellectual giant, though. IMO

bbm
They (investigators/Carter) perhaps are suspicious, maybe since 2017 already (not later than around end of 2018?), but ............ there comes the unbeatable cleverness and a form of "untouchability" into the play. I think so; of course I maybe wrong, completely even.

 

[mimimarge]

Yes, probably someone important’s third cousin twice removed, by second marriage or so, whom they see on Thanksgiving if that, but LE is in such deference of the powerful relative that he won’t even dare to pursue the killer.

ETA: in my view, no one is, or should be, held responsible, for a killer in the family, as long as they don't cover him up.

And if they do cover up they ARE responsible. For past and future crimes.

 

[Yemelyan]

@stattlich1 To answer your question about the creek crossing, there was once a video containing an interview with Detective Holeman that was attached to this news article:

Lead detective in Delphi murders confirms police have more audio from phone, DNA evidence | Fox 59

The article is still there but it looks like the video is gone. As far as I can tell from comments left on older threads when the article was first released, this was the video where the creek crossing was mentioned. @Jax49 do you remember Sgt Holeman discussing this like I do?

 

[bradfordsleuth]

@stattlich1 To answer your question about the creek crossing, there was once a video containing an interview with Detective Holeman that was attached to this news article:

Lead detective in Delphi murders confirms police have more audio from phone, DNA evidence | Fox 59

The article is still there but it looks like the video is gone. As far as I can tell from comments left on older threads when the article was first released, this was the video where the creek crossing was mentioned. @Jax49 do you remember Sgt Holeman discussing this like I do?

@Spellbound transcribed this back on thread #65

I think this is the transcribed section for the video you are referring to.

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #65

(From Part 2 section)

A: When you walked down and I walked through, that was private property right where the bodies were found. Looking at it logistically from where they were on the bridge and to where their bodies were found, I know we talked about the terrain in the past. I know it's not an easy thing to navigate. Usually you might have to be familiar with the area. I mean, would it have been difficult for the girls to from where they were on the bridge to where they were found?

H: [10:49] Yeah. Absolutely. I think it would be difficult, obviously. They have to go through some pretty steep terrain in a wooded area, sticker bushes and things like that, so it's uh ... and then to cross the creek. The creek, and obviously it's February, it's probably not the warmest . The weather was a warm day that day, but still the water temperature is probably cooler than the air temperature. So yeah, it would have been difficult for .... I mean, I don't think anybody, say on a walk, would walk that way.

 

[Yemelyan]

Thank you, @bradfordsleuth! That was what I remembered Holeman saying, but my memory does not suffice for the confirmation @stattlich1 was looking for! Glad that the interview was transcribed as a lot of these older articles and videos are now scrubbed.

 

[Jax49]

@stattlich1 To answer your question about the creek crossing, there was once a video containing an interview with Detective Holeman that was attached to this news article:

Lead detective in Delphi murders confirms police have more audio from phone, DNA evidence | Fox 59

The article is still there but it looks like the video is gone. As far as I can tell from comments left on older threads when the article was first released, this was the video where the creek crossing was mentioned. @Jax49 do you remember Sgt Holeman discussing this like I do?

Yes, my memory matches yours and thanks to @bradfordsleuth for sharing the transcription.

 

[MizStery]

Please listen at the 14:06 point the caller asks Becky Patti about an eyewitness of BG at 3:15. Becky Patti confirms the FBI had told her there was an eye witness who saw BG but Becky is unsure about the 3:15 time frame the caller is referring to.

I have been looking at the list of witnesses we are aware of and trying to look once more at the timeline.

I remember posting about a Grey Hughes Podcast but I am unsure if I posted this particular conversation with Becky Patti.

Thanks to each of you who have faithfully posted to the thread sincerely I am in awe of your commitment. I took a break from Libby and Abby’s case because it is just so heartbreaking.

My Opinion

 

[Falling Down]

Please listen at the 14:06 point the caller asks Becky Patti about an eyewitness of BG at 3:15. Becky Patti confirms the FBI had told her there was an eye witness who saw BG but Becky is unsure about the 3:15 time frame the caller is referring to.

I have been looking at the list of witnesses we are aware of and trying to look once more at the timeline.

I remember posting about a Grey Hughes Podcast but I am unsure if I posted this particular conversation with Becky Patti.

Thanks to each of you who have faithfully posted to the thread sincerely I am in awe of your commitment. I took a break from Libby and Abby’s case because it is just so heartbreaking.

My Opinion

I haven't seen firm confirmation of the time the witness saw BG, but yes 3:15 or somewhat earlier seems plausible.

Reason why I noted this is there were two young women on the bridge after the murders happened, IIRC one of the two said they got to the small parking area off of C.R. 300 around 2:45 or so. They missed BG by mere minutes on the main trail. They would have been on the bridge when he was leaving the wooded area and getting on to the main trail, where the witness saw him.

JMO

 

[Yemelyan]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

... I can only go by what the families themselves have said about the victims' experience with the trail. From the Scene of the Crime and Down the Hill podcasts, we hear in the families' words the following info:

Hiking on the Delphi trails was "what kids did," per BP, because there wasn't a lot for kids and teens to do in town such as movies, malls, etc. Her remark in Scene of the Crime is especially poignant: "People act like we dropped these kids off in the wilderness but the trails are just what kids did."

Abby had been taken to the trails and swimming in Deer Creek with her mother.

Libby and Kelsi frequented the trails and had previously crossed the bridge together. There was a particular hobby that both were interested in that they had done on the trail recently. Libby had been pestering Kelsi to take her back to the trails in the days previous to this.

The families assert the decision to go on the 13th was spur of the moment. Had Kelsi refused to take them, there would not really have been any way for them to get to the trails that day other than walking (not sure permission would have been granted without a ride there and back).

In Scene of the Crime, Anna Williams described how police collected all electronic devices on the night of the 13th and started going through them looking for evidence of a meetup. She said "Becky was more on top of it than me, she already had passwords to all of Libby's accounts." MP recounts going back to the house and collecting iPods, laptops, phones. Abby had only a Kindle which she had received at Christmas a few weeks before.

Also in Scene of the Crime, BP says that Libby's aunt Tara helped her with the physical re-set of her phone. So this was not a wiping of the phone done in secret, it was perhaps suggested by and definitely assisted by adults in Libby's life.

 

[Falling Down]

<modsnip> I can only go by what the families themselves have said about the victims' experience with the trail. From the Scene of the Crime and Down the Hill podcasts, we hear in the families' words the following info:

Hiking on the Delphi trails was "what kids did," per BP, because there wasn't a lot for kids and teens to do in town such as movies, malls, etc. Her remark in Scene of the Crime is especially poignant: "People act like we dropped these kids off in the wilderness but the trails are just what kids did."

Abby had been taken to the trails and swimming in Deer Creek with her mother.

Libby and Kelsi frequented the trails and had previously crossed the bridge together. There was a particular hobby that both were interested in that they had done on the trail recently. Libby had been pestering Kelsi to take her back to the trails in the days previous to this.

The families assert the decision to go on the 13th was spur of the moment. Had Kelsi refused to take them, there would not really have been any way for them to get to the trails that day other than walking (not sure permission would have been granted without a ride there and back).

In Scene of the Crime, Anna Williams described how police collected all electronic devices on the night of the 13th and started going through them looking for evidence of a meetup. She said "Becky was more on top of it than me, she already had passwords to all of Libby's accounts." MP recounts going back to the house and collecting iPods, laptops, phones. Abby had only a Kindle which she had received at Christmas a few weeks before.

Also in Scene of the Crime, BP says that Libby's aunt Tara helped her with the physical re-set of her phone. So this was not a wiping of the phone done in secret, it was perhaps suggested by and definitely assisted by adults in Libby's life.

It's a rural area.

Besides, as others have noted, here, the trails and bridge area often times were desolate during warmer months, never mind the fact this was February. One video I've posted here before bears that out, a hiker walked from a fair distance away. Like some miles. Walked to the end of the bridge. During that entire video shot during warm weather in 2016, no one else was on the main trail.

That has to be a big reason BG chose that area.

 

[Yemelyan]

It's a rural area.

Besides, as others have noted, here, the trails and bridge area often times were desolate during warmer months, never mind the fact this was February. One video I've posted here before bears that out, a hiker walked from a fair distance away. Like some miles. Walked to the end of the bridge. During that entire video shot during warm weather in 2016, no one else was on the main trail.

That has to be a big reason BG chose that area.

It is rural and I didn't get the impression BP was saying the trails were crowded with kids or teeming with hikers. I think she was commenting on the frequency that her family took recreation there given other options in town. MOO

 

[Falling Down]

It is rural and I didn't get the impression BP was saying the trails were crowded with kids or teeming with hikers. I think she was commenting on the frequency that her family took recreation there given other options in town. MOO

That's what I meant.

 

[Yemelyan]

That's what I meant.

Okay, I couldn't really tell what you were getting at, it reads a bit like you are refuting BP's statement that her kids frequented the trails because of some videos you've seen that show it to be pretty unpopulated.

Like I said, I can only go by what the families say in their own words with regard to how frequently they went there. It may not be accurate, but interesting to see how they frame it nonetheless.

 

[somequestions]

I always thought that Liberty German and Abigail Williams did not know their killer.

The reason is that I thought there was some audio that only the families got to hear where Abby asked Libby if the person on the bridge was still following behind. Then Liberty German responded that they were at the end of the trail and could go no further.

From this audio that only the families got to hear, it seemed like they wanted to get away from this person walking on the bridge.

 

[Sillybilly]

Posts bickering over victim blaming have been removed. If you think there is victim blaming, Report the post and let Mods/Admins review it instead of arguing about it and having the thread closed for cleanup.

Thread is open again.

 

[smisaza3415]

New user here! I scanned most of the comments thus far, so I'm sorry if this has been addressed and I missed it. Curious if anyone ever released video showing the audience during the 2019 press conference with the updated sketch? Would be interested to see if anyone there resembled one of the sketches and/or combo of the two.

 

[Yemelyan]

New user here! I scanned most of the comments thus far, so I'm sorry if this has been addressed and I missed it. Curious if anyone ever released video showing the audience during the 2019 press conference with the updated sketch? Would be interested to see if anyone there resembled one of the sketches and/or combo of the two.

You can definitely see many photos of the crowd/audience at that press conference. Google "Delphi April press conference" and select "images."

Edit to add: I did this recently and didn't see anyone who resembled either sketch really. There were a lot of women in attendance.

 

[BAR72]

I am NEW to this Site so my apologies if I do something wrong. But I have been looking at the pictures posted about this case. The photos to me look like the suspect is wearing a fur lined hooded jacket and possibly a sock hat. I have looked on a EBay and there are several blue fur jackets that could be very similar. Also it appears that he is wearing a sock hat with a reddish logo in the middle. And a red plaid shirt under the jacket. Does anyone know what the temperature was on this day? Also. How many High Schools are there in the area? Going thru some of the High School year books might be helpful.

 

[Justice101]

When will this nightmare end for those poor families. Justice and closure.