Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #125

[JnRyan]

Shipyards. A lot of workers taking trips to work at equipment. They might be away for 3 months and then back home. Indiana has a navy base, what about shipyards?

BG may be anyone, but he does look like a worker on the video. Living elsewhere and with periodic trips to Indiana. (I looked at the map, IN seems dry for shipyards, though, but who knows?)

No DIRECT shipyard connection to IN. However, the one Navy facility you might be thinking of is Crane IN and the primary command there, but not the only command, is Naval Surface Warfare Center - Crane Division. And they are a subordinate command of Naval Sea Systems Command (NAVSEA), the same command the shipyards used to come under. They develop future weapons systems while shipyards work on currently used systems, but there is a crossing of personnel between the two.

 

[dub]

Again, I don't know enough about the region. To me, maybe he sounds no different than the accents of rural Missouri where I used to spend my summers. But south into KY, I hear a different accent and some have pointed to Chicago to the north as having a distinct accent. I don't know if I really hear enough to tell a subtle difference in an accent in the killer's voice. If this guy is from central KY or Chicago and only visited Delphi relatives in the summers of his younger years could he really sound different than the locals? I don't know if I hear enough to tell. For now, from what little I hear he sounds Midwestern. But that's just me along with my lack of knowledge of the state.

SBM

I'm pretty much with you. I feel like the voice is less a regional accent and is more just a "country drawl", which I've heard sporadically in various places across the northern half of the country. But I've spent a fair amount of time in rural Missouri, and a ton in rural downstate Illinois, and tons of people in those areas sound exactly like the BG.

As discussed, a lot of places in the midwest do have pretty distinct accents (Minnesota, Wisconsin, North Dakota, Chicago, western Michigan) that sometimes people have in addition to that country drawl, but to my ear BG has none of those.

I'd be very surprised if BG was from anywhere besides Indiana or Illinois, or (less likely) Missouri, Iowa, or Ohio.

 

[sunshineray]

First, thanks for the post!

Second, I snipped a couple quotes.

It appears there were two locations of 'happenings'. One was 'down there', and the other 'over there'.

Could 'down there' be down the hill, say, on that driveway? Where was 'down there' in reference to this quote?

And, could 'over there' be the location where the girls bodies were found?

I suspect both to be true. And I also find it interesting, that right up front, this little ditty says 'we don't know how' in reference to how the girls got to the other side of that creek. Who's saying that? The DTH podcast host? It appears so. Where did that host get that info.? Where is the definitive proof that there was indeed a creek crossing that day?

All along, and this is my opinion, and I too felt strongly, the prevailing thought has been a frantic skamper down a hill at end of the bridge, a frenzied trip through the woods, forced, or voluntary crossing of the creek, then the murder at the scene where the girls bodies were found.

I'm not so sure that's how it all went down. And, I'm not so sure there was only one perp involved.

To add...Didn't KG just recently say something about the ground, at the far end of the bridge and off in a down the hill way, being much disturbed?

 

[Yemelyan]

To add...Didn't KG just recently say something about the ground, at the far end of the bridge and off in a down the hill way, being much disturbed?

Yes, in the Scene of the Crime podcast. She said in a conversation with Carter that when she crossed the bridge looking for the girls in the afternoon, she saw disturbed ground going down the hill at the far end of the bridge and later wished she had taken a photo to document it.

 

[SMK777]

Am I the only one who remembers a video on YouTube not made by anyone well known but just like a random videographer who ran into a man on the bridge who said that BG tried to get the girls to get in his truck...??? I found it a long time ago when searching Delphi Murder in the YouTube search and going through random videos

I don’t know the video, but how would he be able to know that BG tried to get the girls in his truck, unless he witnessed it? And if he did, why would it not be in the official police report?

 

[rosesfromangels]

I don’t know the video, but how would he be able to know that BG tried to get the girls in his truck, unless he witnessed it? And if he did, why would it not be in the official police report?

Right. Without a MSM source, this is just a rumor.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I don’t know the video, but how would he be able to know that BG tried to get the girls in his truck, unless he witnessed it? And if he did, why would it not be in the official police report?

It certainly sounds like some serious speculation someone made up.
But....who of us has seen the official police report?
It’s the Dance of Delphi. The police say nothing-people come up with theories-some theories meld into facts-police say nothing about that-people theorize more———-etc, etc. tra la tra la tra la.
Most of what we “know” about this case is rumor.

 

[somequestions]

Yeah but we're pretty much unanimous he sounds like he's probably more or less local--and that's been the consensus every time we've discussed it.

Don't know what the FBI thinks though

I do not think he is a local. The voice sample is so small that if I were an investigator in this case and someone called in a tip saying they could identify someone from that short of a recording I would be skeptical.

My opinion is that he is not local, with local being defined as Delphi or the surrounding counties. I also think he is not young. I think he is over 50.

In my opinion, that is probably why it is taking so long to find this guy. Everyone is looking in the wrong place based on false information. I know we have to let it all work out and see what comes of the case, but I would be surprised if the killer in this case ends up being a young guy who lives in the local area.

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes, in the Scene of the Crime podcast. She said in a conversation with Carter that when she crossed the bridge looking for the girls in the afternoon, she saw disturbed ground going down the hill at the far end of the bridge and later wished she had taken a photo to document it.

I’d wonder that a lot of ground disturbance was a result of investigators processing the area.

 

[MistyWaters]

It certainly sounds like some serious speculation someone made up.
But....who of us has seen the official police report?
It’s the Dance of Delphi. The police say nothing-people come up with theories-some theories meld into facts-police say nothing about that-people theorize more———-etc, etc. tra la tra la tra la.
Most of what we “know” about this case is rumor.

I like this, makes it much simpler (although some of their statements are opinion as well - ie what they “believe”) -

“If people have not heard information from an investigator or released by police, they can assume the information is not true,” Leazenby concluded.”
Lots of tips, no arrest in 2017 double homicide | Carroll County Comet

 

[Yemelyan]

I’d wonder that a lot of ground disturbance was a result of investigators processing the area.

This was from before police were called IIRC....when Kelsi and her relative CP crossed the bridge the first time looking for the girls.

 

[sunshineray]

Snipped and BBM from cujenn81's post.

DTH:
With so many people looking for them that first night, why weren’t they found?

DC:
[Long pause]
Umm, I, I think I’ll leave that question unanswered.

To me this answer means that ISP Carter does know why the girls weren't found that first night. If it was something as simple as RL's land was too treacherous in the dark so no one really looked there...or...everyone still out looking were concentrated on the other side of Deer Creek and down near the bridge...he'd have said so easily. Makes me think maybe the girl's were covered up/camouflaged in some way, so maybe part of the killer's signature and therefore ISP Carter is not going to comment about it. Just speculating.

******************************
DTH:
The day that you dropped off Libby and Abby, you did see other kids out here, right?

KG:
Yeah, other kids that were like Libby’s age were here. Um, and I knew that a lot of my friends were out here that day, so I knew it would be okay. Or thought it would be okay.

This has got me perplexed. Kids Libby and Abby's age group plus older high school kids were out and about on the Delphi trails that day and timeframe that KG dropped the girls off. Did Abby and Libby make no noise at all while being abducted? Why else wouldn't cries or screams be heard by any of the multitude of kids around the trails that day? Maybe the girls actually went willingly down the hill. Again, just speculating.

******************************

DC:
From the time their little feet hit that very railroad tie, and we know they did, what happened between here and there and then that initial engagement with the murderer. What happened?

This has me now thinking...was none of the beginning abduction caught on audio? "That initial engagement with the murderer". After, Is he still behind us? Isn't that what BP said Abby asked Libby and Libby replied, Hmmm-mm. Then Libby took some video of Abby with BG in the background. Did Libby then turn her phone off and not capture on audio that initial engagement with her killer? We're they then hustled, maybe with a weapon, to go down the hill and one or both girls fell, disturbing the ground. Could Libby have had a chance to turn her phone back on record, capturing a repeated "down the hill". Wonder where the "guys" fits in? Just some thoughts on a possible senario.

 

[MistyWaters]

This was from before police were called IIRC....when Kelsi and her relative CP crossed the bridge the first time looking for the girls.

Okay, yes I think you’re right. Those would be signs a trained search team would pay attention to, given the girls were last known to be on the bridge. If that was Monday afternoon, it’s too bad she didn’t think it was anything very important as the girls weren’t found until the next day. Not to criticize as foul play wasn’t expected at that time and I’m sure they were probably just walking around calling out their names.

 

[stattlich1]

Snipped and BBM from cujenn81's post.

DTH:
With so many people looking for them that first night, why weren’t they found?

DC:
[Long pause]
Umm, I, I think I’ll leave that question unanswered.

To me this answer means that ISP Carter does know why the girls weren't found that first night. If it was something as simple as RL's land was too treacherous in the dark so no one really looked there...or...everyone still out looking were concentrated on the other side of Deer Creek and down near the bridge...he'd have said so easily. Makes me think maybe the girl's were covered up/camouflaged in some way, so maybe part of the killer's signature and therefore ISP Carter is not going to comment about it. Just speculating.

******************************
DTH:
The day that you dropped off Libby and Abby, you did see other kids out here, right?

KG:
Yeah, other kids that were like Libby’s age were here. Um, and I knew that a lot of my friends were out here that day, so I knew it would be okay. Or thought it would be okay.

This has got me perplexed. Kids Libby and Abby's age group plus older high school kids were out and about on the Delphi trails that day and timeframe that KG dropped the girls off. Did Abby and Libby make no noise at all while being abducted? Why else wouldn't cries or screams be heard by any of the multitude of kids around the trails that day? Maybe the girls actually went willingly down the hill. Again, just speculating.

******************************

DC:
From the time their little feet hit that very railroad tie, and we know they did, what happened between here and there and then that initial engagement with the murderer. What happened?

This has me now thinking...was none of the beginning abduction caught on audio? "That initial engagement with the murderer". After, Is he still behind us? Isn't that what BP said Abby asked Libby and Libby replied, Hmmm-mm. Then Libby took some video of Abby with BG in the background. Did Libby then turn her phone off and not capture on audio that initial engagement with her killer? We're they then hustled, maybe with a weapon, to go down the hill and one or both girls fell, disturbing the ground. Could Libby have had a chance to turn her phone back on record, capturing a repeated "down the hill". Wonder where the "guys" fits in? Just some thoughts on a possible senario.

Every question you have posed here, I too have posed in my own mind.

Were the girls actually murdered where they were found? Maybe not.
Were they abducted, taken somewhere, and returned after dark, or in the wee hours of the morning, to the crime scene?
Did more than one thing occur that day, something on the bridge, maybe something else, below the bridge, maybe 'down the hill' is a completely different 'down the hill' than that hill at the end of that bridge?

And then the report of others being there that day? And nary a sound heard? Nothing. Not a gunshot. Not a shout. Not a scream. Nada. Nothing.
Could it be, because the girls went willingly somewhere, with someone they knew?
Was there a car at the bottom of the hill, on that driveway, prepared to depart the scene? Nobody ever reported such. Crazy ain't it? Nobody knows the REAL truth.

Except the killer(s)

And again, there appears to be reference to some kind of separation of some unknown to us, events.

All speculation. What else is there, but....a few facts, and much speculation.

 

[MistyWaters]

<snipped to reply>

******************************

DC:
From the time their little feet hit that very railroad tie, and we know they did, what happened between here and there and then that initial engagement with the murderer. What happened?

This has me now thinking...was none of the beginning abduction caught on audio? "That initial engagement with the murderer". After, Is he still behind us? Isn't that what BP said Abby asked Libby and Libby replied, Hmmm-mm. Then Libby took some video of Abby with BG in the background. Did Libby then turn her phone off and not capture on audio that initial engagement with her killer? We're they then hustled, maybe with a weapon, to go down the hill and one or both girls fell, disturbing the ground. Could Libby have had a chance to turn her phone back on record, capturing a repeated "down the hill". Wonder where the "guys" fits in? Just some thoughts on a possible senario.

I don’t think we know exactly what LE considers the “initial engagement” but it could be Libby capturing the suspect by video. LE have consistently said they’re missing one piece of the puzzle, indeed what occurred prior to the “initial engagement” with the (as yet) unidentified killer might be information in the tip which they hope to receive, especially if it connects with other evidence they’re now aware of.

 

[Yemelyan]

Every question you have posed here, I too have posed in my own mind.

Were the girls actually murdered where they were found? Maybe not.
Were they abducted, taken somewhere, and returned after dark, or in the wee hours of the morning, to the crime scene?
Did more than one thing occur that day, something on the bridge, maybe something else, below the bridge, maybe 'down the hill' is a completely different 'down the hill' than that hill at the end of that bridge?

And then the report of others being there that day? And nary a sound heard? Nothing. Not a gunshot. Not a shout. Not a scream. Nada. Nothing.
Could it be, because the girls went willingly somewhere, with someone they knew?
Was there a car at the bottom of the hill, on that driveway, prepared to depart the scene? Nobody ever reported such. Crazy ain't it? Nobody knows the REAL truth.

Except the killer(s)

And again, there appears to be reference to some kind of separation of some unknown to us, events.

All speculation. What else is there, but....a few facts, and much speculation.

All good questions. I have one though...if the girls were abducted and taken somewhere else, why bring them back to that particular spot? Seems extraordinarily risky to return there even if you weren't sure anyone would be searching. Also you have to account for how you get them from (I'm guessing) the cemetery to that location. I'm trying to think if I've ever heard of a person who was abducted, murdered somewhere, then their body returned close to the abduction site....

I'm sure investigators know from the condition of the bodies and the condition of the crime scene, the answers as to whether these things occurred or not.

 

[Yemelyan]

Okay, yes I think you’re right. Those would be signs a trained search team would pay attention to, given the girls were last known to be on the bridge. If that was Monday afternoon, it’s too bad she didn’t think it was anything very important as the girls weren’t found until the next day. Not to criticize as foul play wasn’t expected at that time and I’m sure they were probably just walking around calling out their names.

It was unclear from the conversation whether she was telling this observation for the first time to ANY investigator or just the first time to Carter. He acted like it was his first time hearing what she had to say about the disturbed ground but he also had a very matter of fact reaction to it. This could have been something she mentioned to other investigators the very first night.

Speaking of trackers, there was also a moment in the podcast where AW talks about returning home to grab items that tracking dogs could use for scent, and people were told to keep clear of the far end of the bridge because LE planned for dogs to be working there. (Not sure if they ultimately carried through using dogs in this capacity.)

 

[MistyWaters]

It was unclear from the conversation whether she was telling this observation for the first time to ANY investigator or just the first time to Carter. He acted like it was his first time hearing what she had to say about the disturbed ground but he also had a very matter of fact reaction to it. This could have been something she mentioned to other investigators the very first night.

Speaking of trackers, there was also a moment in the podcast where AW talks about returning home to grab items that tracking dogs could use for scent, and people were told to keep clear of the far end of the bridge because LE planned for dogs to be working there. (Not sure if they ultimately carried through using dogs in this capacity.)

It difficult to know what’s what because if something suspicious was noted at the end of the bridge, LE should’ve been who was investigating in that area rather than local residents/relatives of the victims who were assigned to search that location.

It seems the more others talk about that particular day, it results in more questions pertaining it.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Every question you have posed here, I too have posed in my own mind.

Were the girls actually murdered where they were found? Maybe not.
Were they abducted, taken somewhere, and returned after dark, or in the wee hours of the morning, to the crime scene?
Did more than one thing occur that day, something on the bridge, maybe something else, below the bridge, maybe 'down the hill' is a completely different 'down the hill' than that hill at the end of that bridge?

And then the report of others being there that day? And nary a sound heard? Nothing. Not a gunshot. Not a shout. Not a scream. Nada. Nothing.
Could it be, because the girls went willingly somewhere, with someone they knew?
Was there a car at the bottom of the hill, on that driveway, prepared to depart the scene? Nobody ever reported such. Crazy ain't it? Nobody knows the REAL truth.

Except the killer(s)

And again, there appears to be reference to some kind of separation of some unknown to us, events.

All speculation. What else is there, but....a few facts, and much speculation.

One of the few things LE has consistently said, never backtracked on, and never felt needed to be clarified, is the girls were killed where they were found. I believe them.
Very early on some people wondered about whether there was a car waiting on that dirt drive as you said. Some even said they could see it in some pictures(I never did). I kinda dismissed it at the time but now I’m not so sure. I could see a scenario as you explained where he cons them into going “down the hill” to the drive, then pulls a weapon and they see the car and they bolt, realizing what’s happening. Across the creek, etc, etc... Just one of my many many theories.
Why the girls never screamed is a mystery. Could be they felt their energy was best served getting away from the guy, or they were so focused on that it just didn’t happen. We’ll probably never know, even if...I mean, when...they catch the killer.

 

[somequestions]

The irony in this case is that if the same thing happened, but there was not video/audio, I would agree the killer is most likely a young man who is local to the Delphi area. But there is video/audio.

Until technology can improve to focus on the face of the man on the bridge, we are never going to know whether or not this individual is younger or older than he appears in the video. Until this aspect of the description can be verified, we are never going to know if police are indeed tracking the right person based off their sketch description. The man in the second sketch looks like a young man. Intelligence developed over time lead LE to this conclusion.

The question is whether this case will get solved because of the LE investigation or because a 14 year old girl had the foresight to hit record.