DOWN THE HILL: THE DELPHI MURDERS
Episode 8 - A New Direction
INDIVIDUALS INTERVIEWED FOR THIS EPISODE
KIM RILEY - Indiana State Police SGT & Information Officer
DOUG CARTER - Indiana State Police Superintendent
DAVE BURSTON - (former) Indiana State Police Captain
SUSAN HENDRICKS - HLN Reporter
CARRIE TIMMONS - Libby’s Mother
MIKE PATTY - Libby’s Grandfather & Legal Guardian
DIANE ERSKINE - Abby’s Grandmother
ERICA GIBSON - friend of Abby and Libby
AMY BROWN - mother of Erica Gibson
LISA DELANEY - owner of Stone House Restaurant in Delphi, IN
CYNTHIA ROSSI - one of Abby’s best friends
KELSI GERMAN - Libby’s Sister
TOBE LEAZENBY - Sheriff of Carroll County
SGT. KIM RILEY
I, I knew that things would be tough. Uh, I knew I was going to get drilled. I knew the superintendent was gonna get drilled. And, we were the two main people that people were going to look at, especially being that the superintendent is the one who, excuse that expression, threw it out there. I mean, I could’ve done it — he did it. We all felt it was better than he did it. Just because of his ability to speak and talk.
FROM PRESS CONFERENCE ON APRIL 22, 2019
ISP SUPERINTENDENT DOUG CARTER
Information that is being released today is the result of literally thousands and thousands of hours of extraordinary investigative efforts by Delphi, Carroll County, the FBI, the Indiana State Police, and countless other agencies.
This community surrounded us some twenty-six months ago, and you did everything you could to support us. But most importantly, you surrounded the family of these two little girls. Gosh, I’ll never forget it.
After you hear what we’re going to release today, I’m going to ask for your continued support, your continued understanding, your empathy and compassion, um, as we, we move forward, uh, to find out who did this. And, we will.
We’re seeking the public’s help to identify the driver of a vehicle that was parked at the old CPS/DCS welfare building in the city of Delphi, that was abandoned on the east side of County Road 300 North, next to the Hoosier Heartland Highway, between the hours of noon to five on February 14th, 2017. If you were parked there or know who was parked there, please contact the officers at the command post at the Delphi City Building.
We’re releasing additional portions of the audio recording from that day. Please keep in mind the person talking is one person and is the person on the bridge with the girls. This is not two different people speaking. Please listen to it very, very carefully.
We’re also releasing video recovered from Libby’s phone. This video has never before been previously released. The video shows the suspect walking on the bridge. When you see the video, watch the, watch the person’s mannerisms as they walk. Watch the mannerisms as he walks. Do you recognize the mannerisms as being someone that you might know?
Remember he is walking on the former railroad bridge. Because of the deteriorated condition of the bridge, the suspect is not walking naturally due to the spacing between the ties.
During the course of this investigation, we have concluded the first sketch released will become secondary, as of today. The result of the new information and intelligence over time leads us to believe the sketch, which you will see shortly, is the person responsible for the murders of these two little girls. We also believe this person is from Delphi, currently or has previously lived here, visits on a regular basis, or works here. We believe this person is currently between the age range of 18 and 40 but might appear younger than his true age.
Directly to the killer who may be in this room — we believe you are hiding in plain sight. For more than two years, you never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy, but… WE HAVE. We likely have interviewed you or someone close to you. We know that this about power to you. And, you want to know what we know. And, one day, YOU WILL.
A question to you — what will those closest to you think of when they find out that you brutally murdered two little girls? Two children — only a coward would do such a thing. We are confident that you have told someone what you have done, or at the very least, they know because of how different you are since the murders.
[Sigh]
[Pause]
We try so hard to understand how a person could do something like this to two children, to two children. And I recently watched a movie called The Shack, [pause] and there’s also a book that talks so well about evil, about death, and about eternity.
To the murderer — I believe you have just a little bit of a conscience left, [sigh] and I can assure you that how you left them in that woods is NOT [pause], is NOT what they’re experiencing today.
To the family — [sigh] I hope that you all will give them some time because we’re going to be asking that there’s no media inquiry or no media response for at least the next two weeks. And, I hope you understand why. The family found out about this, about this information, this morning. [Sigh] I just want the family to know that when I take my last breath on this earth, I’ll be thinking of them.
There’s going to be a tremendous amount of questions I know that, I know that. Uh, never in my career have I stood in front of something like this. Please be, be patient with us, please. Uh, we’re just beginning. We are just now beginning.
And, I can tell you on behalf of the Sheriff, and the Police Chief, so many other partners, um, that have stood with us over this period of time — that WE. WILL. NOT. STOP.
CAPTAIN DAVE BURSTON
I just unveiled the person that we believe responsible for the murder of the these two little girls. So, I invite media to take a look at that now. Kim —
[ The new sketch is revealed. ]
CAPTAIN DAVE BURSTON
We’re also going to show you a video not previously released — that Superintendent spoke to — and also the audio, that’s additional to what’s been previously released. It’s only a slight change in it.
THE AUDIO >>> “Guys… [pause] down the hill.”
PODCAST HOST BARBARA MACDONALD AND HLN REPORTER SUSAN HENDRICKS DISCUSS THEIR EXPERIENCE ATTENDING THE PRESS CONFERENCE.
HLN REPORTER SUSAN HENDRICKS
That was intense.
I was there and I thought, for sure, Carter was coming off that stage after somebody. When he ended his sentence and he was done, he walked away from that podium like he owned it. And, I thought, “Oh my gosh, Bridge Guy was dumb enough to show up here. He’s gonna go and choke somebody out.”
That’s actually what I thought and everybody just gasped. It was, it was pretty unreal.
PODCAST HOST ANDREW IDEN
You and Susan Hendricks from HLN, who’s with us here in the writer’s room, get a text message. Can you tell us about — or walk us through learning about April 22nd.
PODCAST HOST BARBARA MACDONALD
Yes, so I was working on another show. Uh, I don’t even remember what story I was doing that day, but I get a text message from one of my sources in Delphi saying, “Can’t tell you why but you need to be here Monday.” And so, we went.
PODCAST HOST ANDREW IDEN
Take us back to the room.
HLN REPORTER SUSAN HENDRICKS
Oh, man.
PODCAST HOST ANDREW IDEN
You know... what was the feeling? What was the vibe? Was the, you know, was there tension? Kind of walk us through that.
PODCAST HOST BARBARA MACDONALD
You know, it was interesting because before the press conference began, it was, um, very calm. Um, people were talking. People weren’t particularly nervous. People, I think, were excited about whatever was going to be said. And then Carter comes out, and his tone is very serious. He’s passionate, he’s intense. And the room just went quiet. When he was speaking, you could, you could literally hear a pin drop in there.
HLN REPORTER SUSAN HENDRICKS
What stood out to me -- when my stomach dropped -- was seeing the unveiling of the new sketch. There was an armed guard standing near it, and when they took off what was covering the sketch, I was taken aback. Because the sketch — the person looks so young.
PODCAST HOST ANDREW IDEN
Right.
PODCAST HOST BARBARA MACDONALD
I’ve gone back on this in my mind. I don’t know if there was an audible gasp in the room when that happened, but I felt a gasp. If people weren’t gasping, that was certainly—
PODCAST HOST ANDREW IDEN
Body language.
PODCAST HOST BARBARA MACDONALD
The air got sucked out of the room for just a second when that happened.
HLN REPORTER SUSAN HENDRICKS
Because we had so much time — because the family was being briefed — we were able to notice our surroundings and really take a look. And I did notice an officer standing by the covered sketch. So, he wanted no one to come even near that to bump it accidentally. But when it was unveiled, I thought, “[Audible gasp], that looks like a kid!”
PODCAST HOST BARBARA MACDONALD
Yeah, even though Superintendent Carter had said, you know, he could be as young as 18 — to see the sketch and to see what a young face that is was shocking.
HLN REPORTER SUSAN HENDRICKS
I thought -- “Did he know these girls? Was he their friend?”
That’s how young he looked.
PODCAST HOST ANDREW IDEN
And vastly different from the original —
PODCAST HOST BARBARA MACDONALD
Wayyy...
HLN REPORTER SUSAN HENDRICKS
COMPLETELY different.
DTH HOST ANDREW IDEN
When you watch the news conference, you can only see, you know, what’s in the frame. But you guys were in the room and I’m curious — especially when he said, “to the killer, who may be in this room” — what was the feeling inside the room, especially at that moment?
HLN REPORTER SUSAN HENDRICKS
For me, we couldn’t get any closer. Barbara and I were sitting right on the carpeting right in the front.
HLN HOST BARBARA MACDONALD
We were on the floor on the front row.
HLP REPORTER SUSAN HENDRICKS
It was a packed room. Media outlets, armed police officers everywhere — I did notice that — and it was packed. We were in the front row, and I thought in my head -- “In this room?” It took awhile for it to really resonate with me. Thinking -- “Oh my gosh, he could be in this room.”
It took me a while for me to process exactly what he was saying.
HLN HOST BARBARA MACDONALD
And there were a lot of people who -- when Superintendent Carter and Sheriff Leazenby walk off and they leave, they left that room. You didn’t see them after that. I certainly thought — “They’re going to get the guy. They are jumping in their car right now, and they are going to wherever this person is and they’re making that arrest.”
HLP REPORTER SUSAN HENDRICKS
A photojournalist with CNN who was there with us said to me — once I stood up and walked back in this room — “In this? Here in this room? What is going on -- in this room?”
They were shocked, and they see a lot and hear a lot. And they were thinking -- "He’s here?" — looking around for him.
HLN HOST BARBARA MACDONALD
They certainly disrupted everything that day. This press conference just turned everything upside down.
HLN REPORTER SUSAN HENDRICKS
I thought what you thought. That when he left — they’re going to arrest someone. Because a mention of that car also stood out to me without the make and the model. And, obviously, there is a wall of silence that we’ve experienced there. Because they don’t want false confessions. That silence also allows for a lot of speculation.
DTH HOST ANDREW IDEN
So, coupled with the new sketch, you’ve got the new audio —
HLN REPORTER SUSAN HENDRICKS
Did you notice during the press conference how much Superintendent Carter prefaced it’s the same voice? -- “Keep that in mind, it is the same voice.”
Because they sound so different.
DTH HOST BARBARA MACDONALD
They do.
HLN REPORTER SUSAN HENDRICKS
And I think the ‘guys’ sounds very young. Completely different than ‘Down the hill’. It sounds like two different voices; he said it’s one. I use ‘guys’ all the time in a casual manner. To me, it says friendly speak.
DTH HOST BARBARA MACDONALD
We also don’t know -- just because they added ‘guys’ before ‘down the hill’, we don’t know if that is said in any particular order. They haven’t given us any indication of that. We know that all of that was said on the video that Libby made, but we don’t know where in the video, how far apart it might be.
And that was another element of the press conference — it was a little unusual. They invited the public, but they also took everyone’s name as you walked in. And it was interesting because I thought -- "Okay, if you really think he’s going to be here, wouldn’t you maybe ask for an ID?” They weren’t doing that.
HLN REPORTER SUSAN HENDRICKS
But they made sure that you -- you had to sign in.
DTH HOST BARBARA MACDONALD
So, that was an interesting part of the process. You don’t normally sign into something like that unless you’re there for the president or somewhere you need a security clearance to get into to. That wasn’t the case, but they definitely were taking everyone’s name.
HLN REPORTER SUSAN HENDRICKS
And looking back now, in hindsight, when you say something like that — “He could be in this room... he's from Delphi or he’s worked here... he's been hiding in plain sight” — the next morning, that was the cover of the newspaper. Hiding In Plain Sight and his sketch. When you say something like that, speculation, of course, is going to start right away. Why were they signing them in? Did you look at each door? Did you look behind you? What did you hear? What did you think? And then, nothing and no arrest.
CARRIE TIMMONS
Well, it was shock. About everybody’s mouths were hanging on the ground, you know. Like, at first, there was, there was anger. Because the first thing that goes thru your mind is — “Are you kidding me?” We have just spent two years pushing this guy, you know. When they first said -- “Okay, there’s a new sketch.”
It took a little while, but after you think about it, after we thought about it and they had talked to us some — and you think about it, and uh, it’s like -- well, at least we know something’s happening.
Something has happened. There’s, they’ve gotten some information or something that has changed where they’re going and to bring out this sketch. So, we know, at least, we’re closer than what we were. Because they have to have something to switch everything up. So, that’s the only thing that I can hang my hat on.
MIKE PATTY
If you really listen to it, it’s almost like a different, like a different demeanor of the person. Meaning like — “guys” — and then it becomes a little more directive — “down the hill”. You know, it’s almost like, and like, I’ll say — “Hey guys, what’s going on today?” And, then I give you a directive — “down the hill”. The person changed from being social to a directive. That’s the only difference that I really hear in that.
DTH HOST BARBARA MACDONALD
And when they changed from saying that it was somebody 40- to 50-years-old to somebody who could be as young as 18, what did you think about that?
MIKE PATTY
I don’t know the information, again, that they have. That they’re basing that on. And, I’m hoping they have information that would substantiate what they’ve said, which is 18 to 40. But I think they left us such a wide range because they don’t ever want to get backed into the corner, per se. Of saying -- “Okay, you said he was 25 to 45 and this guy is 23 when it happened.” Therefore, you know, it, they’re just not going to do that. I think they’re going to leave such a wide range in age there for that purpose.
DIANE ERSKINE
Honestly, I was shocked. I really was. Because that sketch, to me, is a person who looks so much different than the first sketch that came out. Although, other people said -- “Well, if you look at them closely though or overlay them, you can find some similarities.”
But I guess, personally, I see — one has facial hair, one does not have facial hair. Um, one had longer hair, and one had shorter hair. So, that still of course, opens the possibility that there was more than one person out there that day. And that’s something we have to, we have to entertain, I guess. That idea that there could’ve been more than one person, and that’s why there are two different sketches — is that maybe there were two people out there. I don’t know. I honestly don’t know. I’m not sharing something that’s, that we’ve learned. I’m just saying we don’t know.
ERICA GIBSON
People were already posting who they thought it was throughout our school.
DTH HOST BARBARA MACDONALD
Pictures of local boys? Teens, men?
ERICA GIBSON
Yes. People, people that would’ve been like a sophomore or senior when they were in 8th grade. And, I mean, immediately people started to throw people out, and I don’t know I feel. Like, it’s not a bad thing if he’s around here. We’re just that much closer to getting him. I mean, that if they actually truly believe that.
DTH HOST BARBARA MACDONALD
Does it make you look at your friends, and classmates, and neighbors differently?
ERICA GIBSON
Um, nobody in my class have I ever looked at differently or anybody, um, who was a senior, um, this year. There’s some people in Delphi that I have looked at differently because they’ve always put off that vibe to me — like a creepy vibe. And like, I mean, everybody does. I mean, you see somebody and you think -- “Oh, they’re a little creep like —"
LISA DELANEY
Oh my Lordy, there was almost absolute pandemonium. I mean, people were like freaking out. Especially when they said that they believe that they’ve already interviewed that person and they’re here. That was, I mean, it didn’t create panic. But it was almost like, I don’t even know the right way to describe it. It, people were like -- “We are going to find that person”.
It was a new, you know -- "If they’re here still, he’s gonna be brought out." That was almost, it wasn’t a fear. It was almost more aggressive, you know. You can see that, I mean, when people would talk about it in the grocery store, in church. In church, you’d walk into church right after, and people were standing there and they would say --"They’ve already interviewed him; they know that he’s still here. They feel like he’s still here." The brows all went down — “We’re gonna find him”.
It’s like BOOM! I think we created what we intended to create, right? So, that was where it was at. It was more a rejuvenation of let’s find this person, you know. I think there’s a whole lot of confusion. Because a lot of people are like — “That doesn’t look at all like the first one! Whaaaat?”
So, there was a whole lot of --“What is going on?” That kind of thing. And then they said they really still want to find this person for questioning because they think that maybe he could’ve saw the person. And it’s like, you know, but there was a whole lot of -- “Where did this come from?” You know, so if we had this possible information two years ago, is it possible we could’ve seen the guy standing at the grocery store, you know? But, I mean, that’s, they, they’ve kinda handled it with more confusion than anything else. But there’s, there’s definitely a positive attitude. There’s not a negative. It’s, it’s definitely a positive attitude about it.
KELSI GERMAN
I think it was crazy for us because we all kind of trust each other since we all know each other. Um, so even some of my friends were getting turned in. They were saying -- “Kels, I promise this wasn’t me. I didn’t do this.” Because they were worried because they got turned in that I would think badly of them, I’m assuming. But I don’t — I’m glad that they got turned in or looked into. Um, I love my friends, but I would turn them in if I thought they did it.
AMY BROWN
I’ve always believed it was someone local. Just to know, just to know the trail system. Just to be able to get away with it for so long, so to speak. I think he had to be someone local, and so for me, I think just hearing the words was like validation. But we’ve always thought that, so it’s, it wasn’t, it wasn’t a huge shock to us, you know. It did make us make sure our doors were locked an extra couple times and things like that, but overall it didn’t change much for us.
DTH HOST BARBARA MACDONALD
And do you look at the sketches or the video — the stills from that video — and do you see anybody you recognize?
AMY BROWN
I, I will be honest. I have sent in tips, um, because you know what, no tip can go on unlooked at. And even if I’m wrong, then I’m wrong. No harm, no foul. You know, um, I know that.
DTH HOST BARBARA MACDONALD
So, without telling us the person, what have you called police and said?
AMY BROWN
Um, just, you know, somebody that matches the sketch or, you know, could resemble them. Um, maybe some shady dealings. Maybe, you know, more of a recluse. Things like that, that I feel like would be this person. You know, I have my own profile in my head, you know. Because we haven’t gotten a great profile of what this person could be. So, it’s kind of, you know, you play around in your head. And you just, one day I woke up and I thought — “What was, what was that kids name?” And that’s exactly what I did. I said, and as you go on, you put things together. And I have some, some, some friends that were like just send it in and so I just did. It’s not going to hurt anything. If they talk to him, that’s great, and if —
DTH HOST BARBARA MACDONALD
If it’s not him, you didn’t do anything wrong.
AMY BROWN
And there’s no problems, and I think that’s how most of the people in town look at it.
MIKE PATTY
I do think he’s been here before just because of the layout of the, of the land around there. It’s hard for me to wrap my head around somebody being able to go to a place. That’s what I try to do to myself -- put myself in this person’s shoes. Would I go to a strange place that I’ve never been to before, never been to, and try to pull something like this off? My gosh, that’s, that’s a huge risk not knowing where you’re going. You know, go down the hill and then you’ve got a creek involved. And, how deep is it? It’s cold. It’s February the 13th. The water’s gotta be lower than 40 degrees. Do you go in over your head? I mean, so the person, my opinion, probably has to know a little bit about the layout of the property, of the ground.
CYNTHIA ROSSI
Once they said, in the press conference, that he was a local and he knew the area, that was just a weird feeling for me. Because Delphi’s like this picture perfect town, and the fact that there could be so much evil. And it felt like this was almost like the town secret. Like, the person who did this was just hiding in the shadows, waiting for their debut. And to them, maybe they feel that they’ve succeeded, but to this community it’s not a joke. It’s serious and it’s something that has just made our community stronger.
SHERIFF TOBE LEAZENBY
The simplest way for me to explain it is — it was matter of the, the, our core group of investigators, circling back around and saying — “Plan A, to a certain degree , is not working. So, let’s, let’s rethink this. And, you know, fortunately, our investigators said, “Okay, here’s — this is Plan B.”
Basically, from the information that we were receiving from the public -- we got some information that this person was, was seen there. Basically, we had information on the first one. We made the decision -- that we think, that this one is more the, the second picture that was put out in April is more of a scenario of who we think may be more involved than the other one. We are not saying that the first one is not him. With the information that we’ve gotten in tips and, uh, interviews we’ve been having over the last two years -- that we feel that this face may be more of what the subject looks like. And so, that’s why we’ve kinda changed directions — went to this one and, uh, we’re still pretty adamant that this is the person we’re looking for.
DOUG CARTER
And, frankly, I got some criticism for the second sketch. And I took that — that’s okay. I, it’s all right, um—
DTH HOST BARBARA MACDONALD
What criticism did you get?
DOUG CARTER
Oh, that we’ve had that for a while. And why didn’t we release it earlier? And what else do you know? And why is it being so secretive, being so secretive? And my response to that is very simple — there is a complex tragedy associated with anything that we do. We have to be thoughtful and respectful. And shame on us if we wouldn’t have done it because we knew we were going to face criticism. So, I welcome the criticism.
There are so many rumors, that sometimes it is difficult to remember what an official statement is, and what an official statement is not. IMHO, any statement given by LE to a media source (podcast, news interview, YouTube video, etc.) should be considered "official". They would not be mentioning the information if they did not want the public to hear what they are saying. To my knowledge, none of the statements made have been secretly recorded. I'll do my best to provide accurate information directly from LE, MSM, or the Familes. Please (anyone) feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
